Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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The 6th is directly in relation to the Europa Cup win.
I don't rate him, personally. Think he's waste of money and wouldn't pay more than 15 for that pile of overrated shite.
An easy argument. A lot of the draws came when EL wasn't the issue. I think 76+ points wasn't a given based on the poor goal return. Simply not good enough in front of goal in too many games. That's not really controversial, is it?
Eh? In the current market you don't get a good Championship defender for that.
EL was always the issue after the group stage. It not only guaranteed a Group stage CL place but importantly another trophy, one we had never won. The title was well out of reach some time ago.
He said that (thread title)? So arsenal never had a trophy drought... 
Surely they'll be able to pull some big names that summer after the double.
He's could have said "almost like winning a trophy" and I would agree but this guy has turned completely nuts since managing Liverpool. Maybe they'll have a good summer but we can't really expect that with so few Southampton players having a great season.
I don't think it was necessarily Europa League alone, but our season went to the dogs during that awful run of form through September to the start of December when our record was W2 D6 L3. Of the 9 games that we dropped points, only 3 didn't follow a midweek fixture, and they were the City, Liverpool and Arsenal games, and 4 were following an EL group game.
In fact, 10 of our 15 league draws came in games either immediately following a midweek game, or were midweek fixtures immediately following a weekend fixture. Additionally, of the 14 Europa League games we played that were immediately preceded and followed by other games, we won both surrounding fixtures just 4 times out of 14. These were Watford (H) and Blackburn either side of the first leg of the Saint-Etienne tie, the same Blackburn game and the EFL final either side of the second leg, Sunderland and Chelsea (H) either side of the first leg of the Anderlecht tie, and the same Chelsea game and Burnley either side of the second leg.
The Europa League combined with other midweek fixtures definitely affected our results this season. However, I agree that the main issue was our poor finishing/goal return. Too many games where we drew 1-1 or 0-0 simply because we couldn't put the game to bed. Prior to the Arsenal game when we'd already packed in the league, we'd only lost three times, and they were City at home, and Watford and Chelsea away, the latter two of which followed EL games.
You look at our results this season and you see:
Stoke 1-1 at home where we had 24 shots and threw away the lead
Burnley 0-0 at home where we had 38 shots and couldn't find the back of the net
Arsenal 1-1 at home where they equalised in the 89th minute with their only shot on target
West Ham 1-1 at home where we had 17 shots and 68% possession but couldn't put them away
Everton 1-1 away where we let in an 89th minute equaliser from a penalty
Stoke 1-1 away where we had 65% possession and 25 shots but relied on a 94th minute equaliser to even manage a point
Hull 0-0 at home where we had 67% possession and 17 shots but couldn't find the net
Bournemouth 1-1 at home where we played 45 minutes against 10 men, conceded their only shot on target (a penalty), and had 69% possession and 20 shots
West Brom 0-0 at home where we had 75% possession and 18 shots but couldn't find the net
Everton 1-1 at home where we had 62% possession and 18 shots but relied on a 94th minute penalty to get a point
Swansea 1-1 at home where we conceded another late equaliser
With better finishing, and turning even half of those into wins, we benefit from another 10-12 points, and would have seen us finishing 3rd.
I don't whether it was fatigue, bad luck or what, but for all the talk of United's big squad, we played 63 games and only had 22 players playing 10 or more games.
Really nice performance by Liverpool's 19 yr old Ovie Ejaria vs South Korea (U20 World Cup). Pity he had a serious enough injury to take him out of the first team squad when he was getting a few subs.
OK, on to next year, let's pretend LFC & Utd have identical seasons.
Each team finishes 5th, close enough to suggest they might do the Top 4 thing, 'next' year - but miss out late on. Cup runs are respectable but not exciting, let's say last 8 at home, last 16 in Europe but lose narrowly to Top opposition. No hopeless defeats, some decent footy at times. Which Manager comes under most pressure having failed to qualify for the next year's CL?
If you move the League finishing place up to 4th, does that make everything OK? (might do with the owners, what about the fans?)
Each team finishes 5th, close enough to suggest they might do the Top 4 thing, 'next' year - but miss out late on. Cup runs are respectable but not exciting, let's say last 8 at home, last 16 in Europe but lose narrowly to Top opposition. No hopeless defeats, some decent footy at times. Which Manager comes under most pressure having failed to qualify for the next year's CL?
If you move the League finishing place up to 4th, does that make everything OK? (might do with the owners, what about the fans?)
Mourinho for sure.
Liverpool fans would spin Klopp's failure into some sign of progress no one else sees, or a moral victory.
Justifying failure is basically their raison d'être these days. They love it.
Mourinho would be out of a job.
yeah, I'd be inclined to say you're almost certainly right about Mourinho - given the demands of our fanbase (rightly or wrongly) - I'd probably be in the 3rd year = last chance camp, meself, I think.
There's no question that Mourinho would be under the greater pressure, but that's surely to do with the fact that United have far greater resources & would be expected - at the very least - to be challenging with the likes of Chelsea & City on a regular basis for the big prizes. & FWIW, I think if we finish outside the top 4 next season there'll be question marks over Klopp's medium to long term future at Anfield. He might get another season depending on where we finish in the league. However, he's in no-way untouchable when it comes to getting the old heave-ho.
As I said, Mourinho would be sacked.
Klopp is at a well resourced club though. As a top 4 spending club Liverpool pretty much never outbox their weightclass in terms of league position. Most of the time they finish well short.
Don't think these same tired old excuses wash anymore. Not after Leicester or what Spurs are doing on a much smaller budget.
Good post.
The number of games was an issue for United but two other bigger factors made CL qualification very difficult:
Too easy to contain as an attacking unit.
A record points needed to get 4th (I think Liverpool's 76 points would have got 2nd last season).
After a season it's easy to identify where points were lost and opportunities missed. But that's literally true of all teams except Chelsea.
Well resourced yes, but you'd not have us down as potential title challengers though would you ? So all things considered I'd agree again that Mourinho is at a greater risk of not performing to expectations next season. I happen to think he will though.
Bang on the money as usual. You should post more.
Liverpool fans love a good excuse and they've been full of them for as long as I can remember.
Not having that. Wijnaldum needs to do more against the minnow teams in the league, but he's been very good overall,playing a highly disciplined and understated role that he frankly has too much technical ability to limit himself to.
No one is calling any of them world class, but I think Matip and Mane are both good enough to start for any team in the league without looking out of place.
Karius aside, whose main contribution was making mignolet up his game, it was a very good transfer window. Klavan was a bit meh as well I suppose, but ok ish for a 4th choice stop gap.
I'd be very happy with Sessegnon, Keita, Goretzka, a striker and a CB. I'd rather the likes of Süle or Tah than VVD who'd cost a shitload and I'm not convinced by him. As for the striker, reports of Gremio's Luan for £25 today but no idea how reliable that is. Lacazette seems off to Atlético anyway.
Think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I've not been at all impressed by Wijnaldum really, and I don't think he'd find himself as anything other than a squad player in any of the other top 6 sides. Matip has promise, but I think he'd be the 3rd/4th choice that the other sides would be trying to bed in rather than 1st choice as he is for you, and whilst Mane would probably have a shot at getting into United's and maybe Arsenal's XI, I don't think he'd be more than a squad player elsewhere either.
All 3 have got the potential to develop though, and have had decent debut seasons for you. I still remember the teething problems we had with Evra and Vidic, so I won't be writing any of them off just yet, Mane in particular.
You aren't getting Keita or VVD without spending £50 million on them respectively.
The Wijnaldum critique is an odd one. If a United midfielder scored 6 and assisted 9 goals this season he'd be given praise, and deservedly so. It might be because he's a low key footballer, but he's been a very good buy. Understated but really effective.
Mané was the key to nearly everything Liverpool did really well when they were at their best. Missing three months of the season was a huge loss. He was better than nearly any other attacking wide man in the league - other than Hazard. As a goal threat he was pretty brutal. His pace is very difficult to replicate. For a debut season there's no jury still out, he's an unqualified success and extremely good value at £35m. Not sure what team he doesn't get in based on 16/17.
Honestly, it might just be that. I just haven't noticed him do anything that warrants the praise you lot give him. But you watch him a lot more than me and pay a lot more attention to him.
You've all been slating Carrick for years so I suppose it's a similar situation.
I'm not disputing that, but I also couldn't see any of Spurs, City or Chelsea sacrificing one of their existing first choice attackers for him. I may well be wrong, of course.
I know, but we surely are willing to pay £50m for Keita, I couldn't care less even if it was £60m. The same figure for VVD is not worth it imo so I hope we don't pursue that one, but I guess we'll see how it pans out.
Keita will have the pick of clubs to choose from, I'd be amazed if he went to Liverpool who a) aren't even in the champions league proper yet and b) are in the third tier of European clubs if we are being honest.
I'm not sure you've got the budget available to spend £50-60 million on one player. You may surprise me but your past spending indicates that it's highly unlikely you'll spend more than £35-40 million on a player, even with significant departures.
Klopp is just another deluded Liverpool manager, one more in a long list. Kinda weird because I used to rate him at Dortmund
I think there's a good chance Liverpool breach £50m this summer. Effectively haven't spent a penny since 2015. There's money available.
Most of the comments are still about comparing us with Man United, which to me sounds like false equivalency really.
One team is expected to win PL consistently season in, season out, and spends over half a billion pounds on players every season, the other is politely asked to try to get into the top four every half a decade or so, and the club spends about 80-100 million pounds on players every season, while making sure every transfer window ends with positive net spend.
We've achieved our goals this season, or that one goal we've been chasing for the last 7 or 8 years.
One team is expected to win PL consistently season in, season out, and spends over half a billion pounds on players every season, the other is politely asked to try to get into the top four every half a decade or so, and the club spends about 80-100 million pounds on players every season, while making sure every transfer window ends with positive net spend.
We've achieved our goals this season, or that one goal we've been chasing for the last 7 or 8 years.
Agreed. A low key, non flashy midfielder who most top teams will pass upon because he is just that. But the more than decent end product and knack of getting som key goals in big games, makes him value signing for Liverpool. Which position did he play for the majority of this season ? And what about his overall play besides goals?
Part of a midfield three. His best attributes were his high energy, manoeuvring the ball with technical ability in tight areas and using the ball well - sometimes too safe but not losing it too often.
Decent option to have, but someone even fans can't quite get excited about. Am I right ?
Wijnaldum has been the opposite of what I thought. I thought we'd get a porous high risk attacking midfielder. Instead we've got a gritty, energetic player who hardly ever gets pressured into making a mistake and is more focused on knitting play than creating chances, while still looking for the forward pass at every turn, albeit a bit too safe at times.
Where Henderson can get a bit "im marked, passing it backwards" when he sees anyone in his peripheral vision, Wijnaldum doesn't seem to to care how tightly he is marked. He's happy to take it on the turn and move plays forward.
Where Henderson can get a bit "im marked, passing it backwards" when he sees anyone in his peripheral vision, Wijnaldum doesn't seem to to care how tightly he is marked. He's happy to take it on the turn and move plays forward.
That wasn't my point exactly because I didn't want to get into a "is Matip better than cahill or mane better than sterling" debate. My point was just that they wouldn't look out of place in those sides.
You might, but I still think the odds are against it. In 2014 you sold Suarez for £65 million, but didn't spend more than £25 million on a single player, despite having a net spend of £40 million that season. In 2015 you sold Sterling for £44 million, but didn't spend more than £32.5 million on a single player, despite having a net spend of £20 million. This season you made a net profit of £15 million, but still didn't spend more than £35 million on a single player.
Your net spend over the last three seasons has been around £45 million, and that jumps up to around £100 million if you go back to Rodgers first season, and £135 million if you go back to when FSG first took over. This season was the first where you turned a profit, as far as transfers go.
You were unwilling to go wild in the summer after nearly winning the league, and then didn't when you failed to consolidate the CL place. I'm not sure your owners are the kind to go wild now when you've effectively met their target after turning a profit.
Firstly, United's gross spending hasn't totalled more than £150 million in any season, and prior to LvG, was generally < £60 million, never mind net. Not sure where you're pulling this half a billion nonsense from. Liverpool have also had a positive net spend just once in the last 5 seasons, and that was this season. Liverpool's net spend over the last 5 seasons has been around the 4th or 5th highest in the league.
Secondly, the money excuse can only get you so far. Spurs have a far lower net spend than Liverpool over the last 5 seasons, have had a lower gross spend, and have even gone through more managers, yet have finished ahead of Liverpool in 4 of those 5 seasons. In fact, Spurs have only spent something like £1 million net in that time.
I don't disagree that United's ambitions should be to win the league, or at least challenge for it, season after season, especially now we're back on our feet post-Fergie (hopefully), but to relegate Liverpool's season ambitions to a polite attempt at top 4 is farcical. You've been craving another league title since the Premier League began, and spend the best part of the first 20 years as CL regulars and sporadic title-challengers. It was only after Benitez lost the plot in 09/10 and you had a bit of owner turmoil that you've slipped down a bit, but in that time you've had no problem outspending the majority of the league's clubs, with the exceptions of United, City and Chelsea.
Every season for the last 7 or 8 years it's been "top 4/CL qualification this year, then on to the league" or variations thereof, which is essentially what United have done every year post-Fergie. Moyes was Moyes, LvG didn't improve us after his first season, so while were perhaps being a bit giddy with Mourinho coming in and jumping straight to title challenge this season, if he doesn't manage it next year, short of winning the CL, the pressure will be on him.
At some point Liverpool's expectations have to rise from "attempt top 4" to something more, because that's what the fans want and expect. Whilst a challenge for top 4 may have been the minimum expectation this season, the minimum next season has to rise to actually finishing there because that's what you managed this season. It doesn't matter what the other clubs around you spend.
Wires crossed then. I responded from the point of view that the other top 6 clubs wouldn't replace their current choice for your signings, with the exceptions already mentioned.
Nobody knows how much money we're going to spend this summer. For all we know FSG might decide to back Klopp to the hilt financially. We hit 76 points with a squad low on quality. Maybe they think he's the man capable of taking us a lot further with the right players. Not sure they'd get involved in a bidding war though. I imagine a lot of initial groundwork has already been done in sounding out players who'd be interested in joining us. Going to be an eventful summer for all of us I suspect.