Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

He's been good, but Mane's been nowhere near as impressive as some of your fans have made out, and certainly isn't a player to be feared by any of the top sides. Not yet anyway.

You mean the same Mane who has 2 less league goals (13) and the same amount of assists (5) this season as Eden Hazard, in 5 less appearances - and has made the PFA team of the year? Scoring twice against Arsenal, twice against Everton and once against Spurs? Yet no top sides would fear him?

I certainly wouldn't mind a couple more signings like him.

What happens though if the other top sides suss us out next season & start taking more points off us ? If we don't 'find a formula' - as you put it - we'll be right up shit-street. To overcome those sides in the lower half of the table Klopp needs to tweak his tactics & team selection. He doesn't seem quite capable of doing that, it's a one-size fits all style of management. 42 goals conceded this season & with still 4 games left to play. The vast majority of those goals have come against sides in the lower half of the table. So what does that tell you ? It tells me that he's had all season to rectify the problem but it's still a massive, massive flaw in his management skills. Maybe it is the personnel. Lovren obviously can't be trusted. After a couple of decent performances he turned into his clown alter-ego again yesterday. So that's 2 centre-backs we're going to need for next season with Sakho obviously on his way out. I don't know who's to blame for Klopp getting rid of 14 players & only bringing in 7 new faces during his time here, but that bench yesterday was a bunch of young, inexperienced kids who should never have been put in the situation of getting thrown on in the hope of salvaging something from a very important game.

Injuries are part & parcel of the game. It's the manager, & the club's, responsibility to ensure we having the playing staff available to compete on all fronts. Our manager, & the club, have failed miserably on that score this season.

Yes everything you are saying is relevant. But what if by the same token, we maintain a similar record vs the better teams and begin to consistently take points from the lesser teams? Where will we be then?

FWIW, Benitez gradually improved upon beating the smaller sides as time passed further into his tenure.

Klopp is responsible for the squad but going into the season with no European football, could we have predicted that Lallana, Mane, Henderson, Ings, Sturridge (:rolleyes:) would all be injured at this key stage of the season?

There's the argument that we should have signed in January, but perhaps we were waiting for targets that will become available in the summer.

I'll reserve judgement on Klopp until the end of the season. If we manage to get into the top four then I'll have no complaints.
 
Not going into the statement by him ,but he as a charecter has gone on to become one big hypocrit.
 
& yet with 4 games still left to play (for us) we've got the same amount of points that both City & United achieved last season, with City getting that 4th place on GD. So maybe we're were we are because of our own efforts & not the failings of other clubs. I mean, if it wasn't for injuries we'd have had the league sewn up by now ;)
Come on, we had the LVG nightmare and City announced Pep in April or something which killed their season.
This season we've had 9 (unlucky) home draws which is quite exceptional, innit?

Maybe my City arguement isn't too strong but anyway what I'm saying is that you guys are still the same laughing stock you were with Rodgers and Kenny. Huffing and puffing only to lose at home with spineless performance in crucial stages of the season.
 
Liverpool have absolutely no room to speak about injuries. Least not when they have released the likes of Sakho on loan and exited every cup competition at the first hurdle.

Klopp has dropped a bit of a bollock with his squad management. Simple.
 
Liverpool have absolutely no room to speak about injuries. Least not when they have released the likes of Sakho on loan and exited every cup competition at the first hurdle.

Klopp has dropped a bit of a bollock with his squad management. Simple.
We played the same number of EFL Cup games as United did.
 
I'm not sure how this proves that you were coping fine, or doing better, with fixture congestion. The highest position you reached under Klopp last season was 6th, and that was for 1 week before you were back down to spending the bulk of the season 7th or below, eventually finishing 8th. Liverpool fans like to trot out the "focusing on the EL" excuse for missing out on top 4/Europe entirely, but the facts are that you were never really in contention for top 4 all season, and spent a good chunk of it outside of the European places. You might have dropped a few points during the run-in as you reached the latter stages of the EL and focus shifted entirely onto that, but it's just a complete lie to say that fixture congestion didn't affect your results over the season.

I'd agree that inconsistency is a big problem with you, but that doesn't mean that fixture congestion doesn't affect you. If anything, you've got a bigger problem because fixture congestion does have an effect, as it does for all teams, and you're plagued by inconsistency. Last season, on all but on occasion, if you dropped points in a league game, you also dropped points in at least one more game afterwards, with the only exception being losing to Palace then beating City in your next game two weeks later. This season, you enjoyed an 11 game unbeaten run, stretching from the end of August through to the start of December, when you lost to Bournemouth. You then went through the rest of December unbeaten, before crashing and burning during the continued congestion in January.

Having your best players at your disposal in a month with just 3 fixtures, 2 of which were against relegation threatened sides no less, just says to me that these players may have just enjoyed purple patches during the season and aren't quite the match-winning talismans you're hoping they're going to be going forwards. I can't speak for all United fans, but none of Lallana, Mane and Henderson don't worry me that much at all. You're really missing a fear factor, and it's something you've not had since Suarez left and Gerrard's legs/head went after 2013/14. Even during the dark patch between 2009/10 and 2012/13, you still had Gerrard, and for a bit Carragher providing some much needed passion and bite. For a team with such apparent attacking qualities, you go through phases where you look utterly toothless every other week, which I suppose was only to be expected once Suarez left.

So if too many fixtures are/were a major effect on our form, how can we consistently take points, & remain unbeaten, against the better sides, & consistently drop points, & concede goals against the lower teams ? In between the away defeats to Hull & Leicester in February we convincingly beat Spurs. That was a perfect snapshot of where we are as a football club under Jurgen Klopp. Even now we're playing just one game a week our performance levels have dropped well below to the time last season when we were playing 3 times a week on a regular basis. So how does that work then ?

When we're good (usually against the top sides) we're very good. When we're bad (usually against the lower sides) we're awful. That's been the only consistent thing about us this season. The number of games, & when we've played them, is totally irrelevant.
 
Come on, we had the LVG nightmare and City announced Pep in April or something which killed their season.
This season we've had 9 (unlucky) home draws which is quite exceptional, innit?

Maybe my City arguement isn't too strong but anyway what I'm saying is that you guys are still the same laughing stock you were with Rodgers and Kenny. Huffing and puffing only to lose at home with spineless performance in crucial stages of the season.

It's not bad luck.

It's awful finishing.
 
So if too many fixtures are/were a major effect on our form, how can we consistently take points, & remain unbeaten, against the better sides, & consistently drop points, & concede goals against the lower teams ? In between the away defeats to Hull & Leicester in February we convincingly beat Spurs. That was a perfect snapshot of where we are as a football club under Jurgen Klopp. Even now we're playing just one game a week our performance levels have dropped well below to the time last season when we were playing 3 times a week on a regular basis. So how does that work then ?

When we're good (usually against the top sides) we're very good. When we're bad (usually against the lower sides) we're awful. That's been the only consistent thing about us this season. The number of games, & when we've played them, is totally irrelevant.

Surely you do think this has a factor though?
 
And finished where?
I was just pointing out that we didn't go out of the cups at the first hurdle.

Klopp's attitude towards the FA Cup needs to change. He's played weakened teams in every game we've had, and all it's led to is unnecessary replays and embarrassing results.
 
So if too many fixtures are/were a major effect on our form, how can we consistently take points, & remain unbeaten, against the better sides, & consistently drop points, & concede goals against the lower teams ? In between the away defeats to Hull & Leicester in February we convincingly beat Spurs. That was a perfect snapshot of where we are as a football club under Jurgen Klopp. Even now we're playing just one game a week our performance levels have dropped well below to the time last season when we were playing 3 times a week on a regular basis. So how does that work then ?

When we're good (usually against the top sides) we're very good. When we're bad (usually against the lower sides) we're awful. That's been the only consistent thing about us this season. The number of games, & when we've played them, is totally irrelevant.

I think this notion that every time you have a bad result you're awful is far fetched. It happens too much to simply be an off day.

It's a mixture of mentality and tactics. Klopp has to shoulder responsibility too.
 
I see your point but I just think success means winning something rather than just being better than what people thought you would be. It'll be a very good season if we finish inside that top 4 but I would say that it's been incredible progress rather than success.
We were

We started a round earlier

So you did. My mistake.
 
Didn't see you in the final?
It works out that we both played the same number of games in that competition though because we entered in the second round, whereas United entered in the third round with the other sides playing in Europe.

So we both played the same number of games between the third round and the semi final, but our extra game was the second round whereas yours was the final.

In terms of games played in that competition we both had the same number, which was my meaningless point.
 
I think the annoying thing for LPool fans must be that there seems to have been no real effort to change the defence?

Sometimes fans call for unrealistic things when their team is struggling - like us clamouring to find another Scholes for years. But LPool must have something fundamentally wrong with their defensive system because the back line on paper is actually quite good & Henderson as a shielding player is also good.

Lovren is a good CB - he proved this at Soton, Matip is a very good CB IMO, Clyne is a top RB, Milner is the obvious 'weak link' but he's been ok at LB. Then you have a few issues at GK but it's not like Mignolet is terrible, he's just erratic compared to a Courtois or DDG. I get the impression even if you signed a top LB the problems would persist and it's down to how the team is setup - whereas Man Utd are the opposite (we've been playing Darmian at LB ffs and keeping clean sheets but not scoring)
 
I think the annoying thing for LPool fans must be that there seems to have been no real effort to change the defence?

Sometimes fans call for unrealistic things when their team is struggling - like us clamouring to find another Scholes for years. But LPool must have something fundamentally wrong with their defensive system because the back line on paper is actually quite good & Henderson as a shielding player is also good.

Lovren is a good CB - he proved this at Soton, Matip is a very good CB IMO, Clyne is a top RB, Milner is the obvious 'weak link' but he's been ok at LB. Then you have a few issues at GK but it's not like Mignolet is terrible, he's just erratic compared to a Courtois or DDG. I get the impression even if you signed a top LB the problems would persist and it's down to how the team is setup - whereas Man Utd are the opposite (we've been playing Darmian at LB ffs and keeping clean sheets but not scoring)
I agree with you to some extent but players like Lovren and Mignolet have still made individual errors that have cost us this season.

It's a mix of both. The zonal marking from set pieces clearly doesn't work for example but Klopp has stuck with it for some reason, and we've also had players like Klavan, Lucas, Karius, Lovren etc make poor mistakes individually that have cost us.

I do think we look very open in a lot of games, especially at Anfield. That's probably due to Klopp's style of play.
 
Last edited:
I think this notion that every time you have a bad result you're awful is far fetched. It happens too much to simply be an off day.

It's a mixture of mentality and tactics. Klopp has to shoulder responsibility too.

I think if you go back quite a few pages you'll find I pretty much alluded to what you're saying. The question is, can Klopp change both facets, or at least accept both are a major contributory factor in us going from title contenders in December to top 4 hopefuls in April. I get angry, frustrated, & even a little bit embarrassed when I hear our manager blaming injuries, fixtures, etc. Especially when we've had no European football to contend with this season, & fielded mostly 2nd string sides in both domestic cup competitions.
 
I don't think we're toothless, at least not in attack. If we're toothless then what does it say about the rest of the league, considering we're the top scorers? We've only failed to score in four league games this season.

I do agree that we lack the star quality when compared to other sides around us, but defensive issues seem like larger flaws than offensive ones do. Other than January, we rarely struggled to score/create chances this season.
Agree with 90% of that post. Lack star quality however ? Obviously not in attack with Mane, Firmino and Coutinho. In defensive midfield ? Yes. In defence ? Yes. But again sum of the parts etc.

We don't have offensive issues per se . we have defensive ones caused by a midfield not defending the defence and a defence that makes far too many individual errors (I'm excluding Matip from this because he's looked class in 90% of the games he's played).

According to the Premier League we are 6th worse at missing BIG Chances (however they come to designate them) so to say we are the worst (as I've seen some say) or worse than other top teams is clearly not true. Obviously the better teams will be near the top of this particular league since they create more chances. This was pre-last weekend.

United - 43 misses
City - 41
Stoke - 33
Arsenal - 32
Spurs - 32
Liverpool - 31
Chelsea - 27
Everton - 27

Maybe we should use Shot Accuracy then ? Squawka :

Liverpool - 53% (429 chances created)
Everton - 53% (350 chances created)
Spurs - 51% (423 chances created)
United - 49% (396 chances created)
Chelsea - 49% (342 chances created)
Arsenal - 47% (345 chances created)
Man City - 45% (388 chances created)

Seems no matter which way you cut it we are no worse than the other teams in the top 7 as far as creating & missing chances is concerned and considerably better overall. The issue as I said above is midfield/defence our attack is more than fine.
 
You mean the same Mane who has 2 less league goals (13) and the same amount of assists (5) this season as Eden Hazard, in 5 less appearances - and has made the PFA team of the year? Scoring twice against Arsenal, twice against Everton and once against Spurs? Yet no top sides would fear him?

I certainly wouldn't mind a couple more signings like him.



Yes everything you are saying is relevant. But what if by the same token, we maintain a similar record vs the better teams and begin to consistently take points from the lesser teams? Where will we be then?

FWIW, Benitez gradually improved upon beating the smaller sides as time passed further into his tenure.

Klopp is responsible for the squad but going into the season with no European football, could we have predicted that Lallana, Mane, Henderson, Ings, Sturridge (:rolleyes:) would all be injured at this key stage of the season?

There's the argument that we should have signed in January, but perhaps we were waiting for targets that will become available in the summer.

I'll reserve judgement on Klopp until the end of the season. If we manage to get into the top four then I'll have no complaints.
Spot on.
 
I think this notion that every time you have a bad result you're awful is far fetched. It happens too much to simply be an off day.

It's a mixture of mentality and tactics. Klopp has to shoulder responsibility too.
We've been really good in some of those matches ... for 85 mins. Individual errors and lack of concentration or 'adult play' as Klopp would call it (game management I call it) cost us big time. However we should remember that this is virtually (along with Spurs - who have been together much longer and seem to have come on better) the youngest team in the PL (ave. age around 23 yrs old) whereas the average age for a PL winning team is between 26-28 yrs old. I'm not sure where Chelsea stand in that regard this season, or City for exmaple, but both have far more mature squads. It's undoubtedly a factor and one reason I want to see us buying more mature, established, players this Summer.
 
I think the annoying thing for LPool fans must be that there seems to have been no real effort to change the defence?

Sometimes fans call for unrealistic things when their team is struggling - like us clamouring to find another Scholes for years. But LPool must have something fundamentally wrong with their defensive system because the back line on paper is actually quite good & Henderson as a shielding player is also good.

Lovren is a good CB - he proved this at Soton, Matip is a very good CB IMO, Clyne is a top RB, Milner is the obvious 'weak link' but he's been ok at LB. Then you have a few issues at GK but it's not like Mignolet is terrible, he's just erratic compared to a Courtois or DDG. I get the impression even if you signed a top LB the problems would persist and it's down to how the team is setup - whereas Man Utd are the opposite (we've been playing Darmian at LB ffs and keeping clean sheets but not scoring)
To a degree I agree with this. The midfield is not set up to defend but how we concede goals is also illustrative of individual weaknesses.

To highlight this a guy on an LFC forum gave these figures he'd found (pre-weekend):
26 goals conceded from open play, 1 from a counter attack, 12 from set pieces and 3 penalties. Clearly our zonal marking and/or individual errors are an issue.

I prefer AA over Clyne, Clyne is an excellent defender but AA is not far behind but a far better (and faster) attacking option. Milner started well but has been ineffectual and has contributed to the defensive errors recently, we need a high quality LB this Summer and let Milner join the squad ranks as a fine backup. Lovren makes far too many individual errors for a starting CB, good squad option though, VVD or similar or better, to partner Matip (whose frequent minor injuries are beginning to worry me) in the Summer please.
If we sign Naby Keita I'll be over the moon and half of our CM issues will disappear overnight (I hope). Maybe a long shot though. All depends on CL qualification.
 
Last edited:
So surely then the problem is still the defence? If we had a solid defence then even if we're having a bad day up top, we would still have enough to grind out a 1-0 or 2-1 win. At the very least we might draw instead of losing.

Right now we are a side that can concede at any minute, which means that we seem to frequently need more than one or two goals to win a game. We scored 101 goals in 13/14 which is up there with the highest goals scored for a season in the Premier League era, but conceded 50 whilst eventual champions City scored 102 (only one more than us) but conceded far fewer.

It says a lot that we've never struggled to score goals in the last five years but have always struggled defensively in that period, and have no trophies to show for it. United have struggled to score goals for two years now but haven't conceded many goals, and have two trophies in that period.

The defence is the issue, not the attack. I agree that it's not always lethal, but it would have us further up the table if we could defend properly.

In 2014/15 you were 7th top scorers, with Van Gaal's United scoring 10 more than you, and in 2015/16 you were 6th top scorers, with West Ham outscoring you. As I've pointed out, you had a purple patch in the first half of the season where you scored a shit load. Despite scoring 20 more goals than United this season, in the second half, you've scored just 2 more, and played 2 more games.

The defense is a problem, and the main one, but that doesn't mean other things can't be problems as well. My point is that you lack the type of player(s) that get you through games against shite opposition who set up to hit you on the break. There's no one to inspire confidence in the defense, and you've got no one capable of creating that bit of magic or luck that you sometimes need to get through those games. Not shipping multiple goals against the likes of Hull and Sunderland would obviously help, but when you're lining up with Coutinho, Firmino, Mane and Lallana, your best attacking players, and can't find a goal against Hull, who have conceded the 2nd highest number of goals in the league (1 less than Swansea), it's not all as rosy as it looks on paper. You might hit a run of games where you're scoring for fun, but you might also hit a patch just as long where you score as many as a team becoming notorious for their failure to find the back of the net.

You mean the same Mane who has 2 less league goals (13) and the same amount of assists (5) this season as Eden Hazard, in 5 less appearances - and has made the PFA team of the year? Scoring twice against Arsenal, twice against Everton and once against Spurs? Yet no top sides would fear him?

I certainly wouldn't mind a couple more signings like him.

No, they won't. Mainly because Hazard's capable of producing something out of nothing, which is not something I've seen from Mane. If he keeps this sort of form up next season he'll be getting there. However, him scoring against top teams this season when, as a team, you've done better against them than the cannon fodder doesn't necessarily say anything about Mane. He's also failed to score a single goal in over 780 minutes of football against teams from the bottom half of the table, registering just one assist in that time.

I'd put Mane on that rung below, currently, simply because I highly doubt anyone's looking at Mane the same way they look at Zlatan, Sanchez, Aguero, Costa, or even Lukaku or Kane.

So if too many fixtures are/were a major effect on our form, how can we consistently take points, & remain unbeaten, against the better sides, & consistently drop points, & concede goals against the lower teams ? In between the away defeats to Hull & Leicester in February we convincingly beat Spurs. That was a perfect snapshot of where we are as a football club under Jurgen Klopp. Even now we're playing just one game a week our performance levels have dropped well below to the time last season when we were playing 3 times a week on a regular basis. So how does that work then ?

When we're good (usually against the top sides) we're very good. When we're bad (usually against the lower sides) we're awful. That's been the only consistent thing about us this season. The number of games, & when we've played them, is totally irrelevant.

You haven't "consistently" taken points off the better sides. You've done it this season when literally every other one of them has had something other than league to concentrate on, but last season your record was W3/D5/L6, dropping 28 of the 42 points available from those games. Klopp's record was W3/D4/L4, with Rodgers being at the helm for Arsenal away (draw), West Ham home (loss) and United away (loss), but Klopp still drew with Arsenal at home, lost to West Ham away, and lost to United at home.

The only thing you've done consistently under Klopp is drop points against bottom half sides, dropping 44 points in the 36 games he's managed against bottom half sides*, losing 10 of those games (20 dropped last season, 24 so far this season). Even when you discount 2013/14, Rodgers only dropped 40 points in the 42 games he played against bottom half sides in 2012/13, 2014/15 and 2015/16, losing 5. If you include 2013/14 Rodgers dropped 51 points and lost 6 times in 62 games against bottom half sides.

I'm honestly at a loss to why you're even arguing this. Fixture congestion affects all teams, even those with deeper and stronger squads. Typically, it'll affect those with smaller and weaker squads more. I've even detailed how many points you dropped and how many draws/losses in cup competitions you had after midweek fixtures last season, and you're still arguing that, by some sort of magic, it doesn't affect Liverpool. Being inconsistent doesn't mean that fixture congestion doesn't also affect you.

*2016/17 stats correct as of today.
 
You haven't "consistently" taken points off the better sides. You've done it this season when literally every other one of them has had something other than league to concentrate on, but last season your record was W3/D5/L6, dropping 28 of the 42 points available from those games. Klopp's record was W3/D4/L4, with Rodgers being at the helm for Arsenal away (draw), West Ham home (loss) and United away (loss), but Klopp still drew with Arsenal at home, lost to West Ham away, and lost to United at home.

The only thing you've done consistently under Klopp is drop points against bottom half sides, dropping 44 points in the 36 games he's managed against bottom half sides*, losing 10 of those games (20 dropped last season, 24 so far this season). Even when you discount 2013/14, Rodgers only dropped 40 points in the 42 games he played against bottom half sides in 2012/13, 2014/15 and 2015/16, losing 5. If you include 2013/14 Rodgers dropped 51 points and lost 6 times in 62 games against bottom half sides.

I'm honestly at a loss to why you're even arguing this. Fixture congestion affects all teams, even those with deeper and stronger squads. Typically, it'll affect those with smaller and weaker squads more. I've even detailed how many points you dropped and how many draws/losses in cup competitions you had after midweek fixtures last season, and you're still arguing that, by some sort of magic, it doesn't affect Liverpool. Being inconsistent doesn't mean that fixture congestion doesn't also affect you.

*2016/17 stats correct as of today.

I'm arguing it because at the halfway point of last season (19 PL games) we'd achieved 30 points & played a total of 28 competitive matches including EL & League cup games (in which we fielded a fair amount of weakened sides). In the 2nd half of the season we also achieved 30 points & played a total of 35 competitive matches (in which we fielded a lot of full strength sides), which is 7 more than the first part of the season. By your reckoning then, our points tally in the 2nd half should have been much lower. & that's not even taking into consideration the 2 PL games against Swansea & West Brom where we dropped 5 points & fielded a weakened side in both games. There is no hard or tangible evidence that backs up your argument. The points gained or lost after playing a midweek match under Klopp generally keeps in line with our final points total at the end of the season (as shown above). Even your own team seems to be improving the more games you play.
 
@redman5 it's obviously not as black and white as playing after a mid week game being guaranteed lost points, but fixture congestion affects every team because there will be tired legs and tired minds, as well as less preparation.

I don't know what more there is to say. Liverpool aren't magically immune to a build up of fixtures.
 
You can't be that good seeing as you've only given your team an average rating of 5.9 for the season :p

I rate my players based on the old figure skating system ;)
 
Christ, £100k a week. Wages are becoming crazy.

He sums up our season he was brilliant against Everton and crap against Palace.

I don't mind him in our squad, but wouldn't have him in the starting 11, we have to get the defence sorted in the next window.
That's a lot of money for back up though so maybe Klopp has a master plan we have seen no evidence of yet!

Have to sign 2 new centre halves in the window for me and a bit concerned this means we might not.
 
Im also fine with that. He was always and will always be a ticking bomb. Crazy money too.
 
BTW Loren is a witness in a trial against a de facto boss of Croatian football and a mobster, Zdravko Mamic. He helped him with money laundering.