time to lawyer up? 
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
They really are delusional.
A good run of form at the start of the season and they think they were in the running for the league title. Unbelievable.
Klopp is the perfect manager for that lot. He believes his own shit, just like them.
A good run of form at the start of the season and they think they were in the running for the league title. Unbelievable.
Klopp is the perfect manager for that lot. He believes his own shit, just like them.
I think he's a good player.
No, a good run of form at the start of the season and the media/some United fans on here started convincing themselves that we were title contenders.
The question of whether Klopp has been successful at Anfield this year is quite easy to answer... no he hasn't been. No trophies again and top 4 out of our own hands.
That said, has he improved us? I believe he has. We play some incredible football at times and although there are glaring weaknesses in defence which still need to be addressed, having us in and around the top 4 at this stage of the season has to be seen as progress at least.
Many on here (myself included) didn't have Liverpool in the top 4 at the start of the season. The fact that we're still in with a good chance means that he has surpassed expectation of a lot of people. Top 4 isn't a trophy as Jose rightly pointed out today but it is vitality important to Liverpool to get back into the Champions League. We've been out of it far too long and haven't looked like getting back in since the end of the 13/14 season. Man Utd, City and Arsenal could weather another season out of the Champions League but I'm not sure Liverpool could. Players look for top level football and if we can't provide it again, we'll be shopping from an already difficult market for players that don't have the quality needed to push us further forward.
The progress is there, now we just need the success to go with that.
That said, has he improved us? I believe he has. We play some incredible football at times and although there are glaring weaknesses in defence which still need to be addressed, having us in and around the top 4 at this stage of the season has to be seen as progress at least.
Many on here (myself included) didn't have Liverpool in the top 4 at the start of the season. The fact that we're still in with a good chance means that he has surpassed expectation of a lot of people. Top 4 isn't a trophy as Jose rightly pointed out today but it is vitality important to Liverpool to get back into the Champions League. We've been out of it far too long and haven't looked like getting back in since the end of the 13/14 season. Man Utd, City and Arsenal could weather another season out of the Champions League but I'm not sure Liverpool could. Players look for top level football and if we can't provide it again, we'll be shopping from an already difficult market for players that don't have the quality needed to push us further forward.
The progress is there, now we just need the success to go with that.
So if he's showing progress and surpassing expectations of a lot of people how is that not success? Liverpool is not a club like Barca, Real or Bayern where a bit of silverware is the bare minimum of success. He didn't even spend big (or net spend anything) last summer afaik.
It's about expectations. He was brought in to get Liverpool back into the top four and winning trophies. He might not manage the former and hasn't achieved the latter either, so from that point of view it's hard to call him a success at the moment.
Getting you guys in the top 4 is a huge success considering the competition, if he gets top 4 he has had a fantastic season.
I would absolutely take issue with that statement. It's correct of course over the long term but then to achieve those aims will take a number of steps over a number of seasons. We all knew this when he signed and his transfer dealings have only underlined the step-by-step approach. He even stated he'd give the current squad a season to see how they could perform before applying surgery where necessary (my para-phrasing). Every Liverpool forum I've been on at the season's start were looking for the same thing, a Top 4 finish. Achieve that and he certainly met the expectations of the vast majority of Liverpool fans. Even just missing out would be disappointing but in context, with such a strong field, not surprising.
Indeed.
Exactly.
Allen is a good player. Gets a bad rep. United supporter too isnt he?
If he finishes 5th with no silverware then he isn't a success. That's par for the Liverpool course.
He is a fantastic coach but he has his limitations and there is a whiff of Wenger purist snobbery with him
I think getting top 4 has to be seen in the context of having no European football and bombing out of both domestic cups by the end of January. They've had nothing else to play for, whilst the rest of the top 6 have.
United have played 55 games this season, with at least 8, possibly 9 still remaining, meaning come the end of the season they'll have played 63/64 competitive fixtures. They've also won a trophy already, and are probably favourites to win another.
City have played 50 games, with 6 remaining, meaning a total of 56. They had Champions League football, and also reached the FA Cup semi-final.
Arsenal have played 47 games, with 8 remaining, meaning a total of 55. Also had Champions League football, and could still win the FA Cup.
Spurs have played 47 games, with 6 remaining, meaning a total of 53. Had both Champions League and Europa League, reached the FA Cup semi-final, and are still in contention for the title.
Liverpool have played 43 games, with 4 remaining, meaning a total of 47. Out of the FA Cup in the second round they played, and out of the EFL Cup by the end of January. Also bombed out of the title race in January.
Chelsea have played 40 games, with 7 remaining, meaning a total of 47. Favourites to win the league, and probably favourites to win the FA Cup too.
Four teams have already played as many or more games than Liverpool will play all season, and all have more games than Liverpool remaining. The only team that'll play the same number are well on course to win the double, in their manager's first season, after they finished 10th the season before. By season's end, United are going to have played 16 or 17 more games than Liverpool, that's nearly 40% more.
If we finish in a Champions League place I'll be satisfied but if we end up 5th with no trophy, it's hard to say he's done any better than Rodgers.
I like some of the players he's brought in. Wijnaldum, Mane and Matip have improved our starting XI and we're better than last season, but finishing 5th and winning nothing makes this season another write off in my eyes.
We need to get out of this run we're in where every season promises so much, but we end up achieving next to nothing.
Four must win games coming up.
While all of that is true, the quality of our squad is considerably worse than United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal and arguably Spurs as well. So yes, we've played fewer games than all of our top 4 rivals bar Chelsea, but we had to play those games with an inferior squad as well, so it would be an achievement to make top four - not one Liverpool fan will care how many games we'll have played in that case.
Fans won't care, and they shouldn't. However, considering that you have probably the weakest squad, and the smallest transfer and wage budgets, the fact that you'll be scraping in to the top 4 (if you make it at all), despite the fact that all of your rivals have played more games and were all fighting on other fronts until at least the end of April, whilst you had nothing but the league to concentrate on for the last four months of the season wouldn't inspire me with too much confidence for the following season. You're all pinning your hopes on an amazing transfer window where you pick up a number of ready-made players for relatively low fees, which I just can't see happening.
I think you'll struggle with the extra fixtures next season and end up back out of the top 4 picture entirely, but only time will tell with that, and you're obviously going to disagree.
That´s the part people underestimate for all teams. Both Manchester clubs have six games left and you´d already need a minimum of 64 points to qualify for the CL this year.
Points necessary to finish top 4 in previous seasons:
66 points
65
73
73
66
63
68
66
61
66
59
57
In 10 of the last 12 season the points total Liverpool, United, City and likely Arsenal in 6th place will reach this year would have comfortably seen you qualify for the CL. Liverpool has improved their points total and their quality of play exemplified by going undefeated against the top 7.
They also have some massive inexplicable flaws. Okay you miss Lallana, Henderson and Mane going forward and back, but that´s no excuse for leaving Benteke unmarked for headers. Literally the only top class skill he has. It doesn´t explain blowing leads to Bournemouth twice and Sunderland. Those three games alone are worth an additional 7 points and easy CL qualification.
Selling Joe Allen was a huge mistake.
On a personal note, I fecking despise inter-season points comparisons.
I'm not pinning my hope onto anything at the moment, I'm just enjoying this for what it is and I'll worry about the transfer window after the season ends. And no, I don't disagree that with this squad and Europe + the cups, we probably wouldn't be able to compete for top four next season, especially since most of our rivals will invest heavily once again. However, I do hope that Klopp knew we wouldn't have that many games this season and that's why our squad is so thin at the moment so in that regard yes, I hope he comes to his senses and recognizes that this squad also needs at least a couple of new additions for us to compete on multiple fronts. But like you said, only time will tell.
He is.
Can you send some nice pictures to Wayne please?
I think not ! I don't want him inhabiting my local bars and restaurants
I think you would be going to different pubs and restaurants.
Can't say i disagree with any of that. We need six first team signings and probably 3 or four depth signings on top of that and there's no way we'll do that and get the requisite quality of player in. That's before you factor in how comically this football club is run. I'm grateful to FSG , they stopped us from going under and on some level i respect and admire them as businessmen, but as a supporter it's been a painful 7 years under their stewardship. I've been over the particulars quite often in the past so I won't dredge that up again but this summer really could be the straw that breaks the camles back.
Klopp is seen as nothing more than a golden ticket to churning out profits with minimal risk and comparatively hefty returns. I think as a fan base we've had our expectations tempered drastically and we're on a real barren run at the minute.
Each individual club's transfer budget is irrelevant. Even if we had £500 million to spend in the summer we'd still be down in the pecking order to the likes of United, Chelsea, City et al when it comes to certain players. It's about buying the right players who'll work well under Klopp. Pogba for example cost nearly 3 times as much as Mane, yet I doubt he's been a bigger influence for United than Mane has for us. I also don't buy into this theory that playing more games can have a negative effect on a sides performances/results when it comes to the business-end of the season. Your side seems to be going from strength-to-strength (despite all the injuries) the more games you play. Our best form last season came in the Spring when we were regularly playing twice a week. Our league form only suffered when Jurgen started fielding weaker sides the closer we got to the UEFA Cup final. It's been the reverse for us this season. In Winter & Spring we've been very inconsistent. With just a few exceptions - generally against the good sides - our play has been lacklustre & lacking the spark you'd associate with a Jurgen Klopp side. Having a full week to prepare for games has been of no benefit whatsoever as far as we're concerned, so I seriously doubt playing in Europe next season will hinder us one way or another.
I think United and Liverpool fans alike are being harsh on Klopp. Apart from the Rodgers/Suarez season (Rodgers may be an embarrassing wanker but he did well that season) Liverpool haven't been close to anything recently, a couple of amusing finals aside. They are closer this season in the league.
I will reserve judgement until next season, personally.
I will reserve judgement until next season, personally.
Good post but frankly the only reason you are in the race for top 4 is our incredible run of draws at home and City being very disappointing and inconsistent.
& yet with 4 games still left to play (for us) we've got the same amount of points that both City & United achieved last season, with City getting that 4th place on GD. So maybe we're were we are because of our own efforts & not the failings of other clubs. I mean, if it wasn't for injuries we'd have had the league sewn up by now
My point regarding budgets is that you need both to strengthen your starting squad, as well as bringing in some proper strength in depth. I don't think you're going to be able afford both because there's too many gaps in your team. I agree that you'd be down the pecking order regardless of budgets. I've not been as impressed by Mane as others. He's been good for you, but I wouldn't put him up there with the top tier of players in the league.
Given that you finished 8th last season I'm not really buying that you'll be fine with the extra games. Also, your best run of form last season consisted of 3 wins and 2 draws, in April, and your longest unbeaten run was during the Rodgers/Klopp crossover at the end of September through October, which lasted 6 games and consisted of 2 wins and 4 draws, neither of which are particularly impressive.
I'm also not sure it's true that you were better with two games a week. Under Klopp, your record after midweek games last season was W4/D7/L7, which have included home defeats to Palace, away defeats to Newcastle, West Ham, and Swansea, home draws to Southampton, West Brom, West Ham, Sunderland, and Newcastle ,and away draws to Exeter, and West Brom. Even then, one of those wins came against Villa from a Tuesday/Sunday gap, and you also went two rounds of the Europa League without games in between the legs because you got knocked out of the FA Cup so early.
And obviously you fell apart this season after the fixture congestion over Christmas and New Year.
& yet with 4 games still left to play (for us) we've got the same amount of points that both City & United achieved last season, with City getting that 4th place on GD. So maybe we're were we are because of our own efforts & not the failings of other clubs. I mean, if it wasn't for injuries we'd have had the league sewn up by now
Again, on a personal note, I fecking despise points comparisons between seasons.
"Oh...if only, if only...."
"If Deidre Barlow had balls, she'd be me Jurgen Klopp."
"If Deidre Barlow had balls, she'd be me Jurgen Klopp."
But that's like saying the only reason Chelsea is in the title race is because the other teams haven't had as good of a run as them. This is what (as Peter Griffin would say) "grinds my gears".
It's not Liverpool's fault that Man Utd went on a string of draws at home and City being very disappointing and inconsistent. Was this the same reason why Leicester won the title last year? Was there nothing to do with how they were playing with hunger and a team chemistry unlike any other team? I think credit should be given where it's due.As mentioned before, we've played some really great football this year, but at the same time, utter dross. If LFC wants to avoid going back another ten years, CL qualification is vital and having a successful transfer window as well. Else, we will always be playing catch up!
From the 14/2/16 to the 23/4/16 we played 9 PL games winning 6, drawing 2, & lost just the once. In between those matches we had 4 tough EL matches against United & Dortmund, winning our home ties & drawing the away ones. So it's rubbish to suggest too many games can hamper a side's progress. We lost away to Swansea in between our 2 legs against Villarreal. Our starting side that day featured the likes of Danny Ward, Brad Smith, Jordan Ibe, Kevin Stewart, Sheyi Ojo, & Pedro Chivirella. & our final PL match of the season against West Brom ended 1-1. There wasn't one player in that starting line who was in the team that faced Seville in the EL final the following Wednesday. Therefore it's pretty obvious that the league took a back seat towards the season end.
It's not fixture congestion that's been our undoing this season, it's inconsistency. Because how else can you explain that in February we only had 3 games to play, & with players such as Mane, Henderson, & Lallana at our disposal, we managed to lose 2 out of those 3 games.
I took your best runs as unbeaten runs. Also, you've picked a span of time there where you had 9 league games in 10 weeks, and also where you had a weekend off between EL fixtures. You played just 5 games in March 2016 ffs.
You've picked out two games as examples there, but you were struggling after midweek games earlier in the season, so whilst they might have been throwaway, the others weren't.
In October 2015 you had an EL game on a Thursday, then drew at home to Southampton on the Sunday.
In November 2015 you had an EL game on a Thursday, then lost at home to Palace on the Sunday.
In December 2015 you had a League Cup game on a Wednesday, then lost to Newcastle on the Sunday. You then followed that with another EL game on a Thursday, and drew at home to West Brom on the Sunday.
Over New Year 2015/16 you had a PL game on a Wednesday, then lost to West Ham on the Saturday.
In January 2016 you had a PL game on a Tuesday, then drew with Exeter on the Friday in the FA Cup. You also had a midweek PL game on a Wednesday, and lost to United at home on the Sunday. You then had your replay with Exeter on a Wednesday, and scraped through 5-4 against Norwich. You then had a League Cup game on a Tuesday, then drew 0-0 at home to West Ham in the FA Cup.
In February 2016 you had a PL game on a Tuesday, then drew at home to Sunderland on the Saturday, then lost your replay to West Ham the following Tuesday. You then had two EL legs against Augsburg without a fixture in between, but lost the League Cup final the Sunday after the second leg. You then had two EL legs against United without a fixture in between, but lost to Southampton the Sunday after the second leg.
I'm not sure how this proves that you were coping fine, or doing better, with fixture congestion. The highest position you reached under Klopp last season was 6th, and that was for 1 week before you were back down to spending the bulk of the season 7th or below, eventually finishing 8th. Liverpool fans like to trot out the "focusing on the EL" excuse for missing out on top 4/Europe entirely, but the facts are that you were never really in contention for top 4 all season, and spent a good chunk of it outside of the European places. You might have dropped a few points during the run-in as you reached the latter stages of the EL and focus shifted entirely onto that, but it's just a complete lie to say that fixture congestion didn't affect your results over the season.
I'd agree that inconsistency is a big problem with you, but that doesn't mean that fixture congestion doesn't affect you. If anything, you've got a bigger problem because fixture congestion does have an effect, as it does for all teams, and you're plagued by inconsistency. Last season, on all but on occasion, if you dropped points in a league game, you also dropped points in at least one more game afterwards, with the only exception being losing to Palace then beating City in your next game two weeks later. This season, you enjoyed an 11 game unbeaten run, stretching from the end of August through to the start of December, when you lost to Bournemouth. You then went through the rest of December unbeaten, before crashing and burning during the continued congestion in January.
Having your best players at your disposal in a month with just 3 fixtures, 2 of which were against relegation threatened sides no less, just says to me that these players may have just enjoyed purple patches during the season and aren't quite the match-winning talismans you're hoping they're going to be going forwards. I can't speak for all United fans, but none of Lallana, Mane and Henderson don't worry me that much at all. You're really missing a fear factor, and it's something you've not had since Suarez left and Gerrard's legs/head went after 2013/14. Even during the dark patch between 2009/10 and 2012/13, you still had Gerrard, and for a bit Carragher providing some much needed passion and bite. For a team with such apparent attacking qualities, you go through phases where you look utterly toothless every other week, which I suppose was only to be expected once Suarez left.
I don't think we're toothless, at least not in attack. If we're toothless then what does it say about the rest of the league, considering we're the top scorers? We've only failed to score in four league games this season.
I do agree that we lack the star quality when compared to other sides around us, but defensive issues seem like larger flaws than offensive ones do. Other than January, we rarely struggled to score/create chances this season.
I do agree that we lack the star quality when compared to other sides around us, but defensive issues seem like larger flaws than offensive ones do. Other than January, we rarely struggled to score/create chances this season.
I mean toothless in terms of getting a win against teams you really should be beaten (and also so I could make a joke about Suarez biting people). You haven't got anyone that just takes a game by the scruff of the neck and kicks everyone up a gear. If Klopp's one tactic doesn't work, you haven't a clue. Last season under Klopp you lost at home to Palace, then after two wins, went on a three game run where you lost to Newcastle and Watford, and drew at home to West Brom. You also drew at home against Sunderland, Newcastle and West Brom before the season was through, and lost to Swansea. This season you've lost to Burnley, Bournemouth, Swansea, Hull, Leicester and Palace, drew at home to West Ham and Bournemouth, and away to a Sunderland team who are one of the most spineless sides ever to play in the division.
Your defensive flaws obviously play into this, but as I said, even during the Hodgson/Dalglish period you had Gerrard busting a gut, and even Carragher for a time as a local lad rallying the troops. You then had a season where Suarez and Sturridge looked untouchable, but really, since Torres went to shit after 2008/09 you've not had a real matchwinner, or someone who can pull out that bit of magic when needed, at least not one that stuck around.
I get that Mane's been good for you, but the fact you had just three games in February (as highlighted by redman), two of which were against relegation threatened sides, and only won one (which was against Spurs), shipping five and scoring just one against Leicester and Hull, says to me that your sometimes lethal attack is perfectly capable of just disappearing completely. Against Hull you started with Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana, Henderson and Mane. Against Leicester you started with Lallana, Wijnaldum, Mane, Firmino and Coutinho, with Mane being replaced after you were already 3 goals down.
We've been hearing for a few years now how dangerous your attack is, yet in 2013/14 you weren't top scorers, and had conceded the most out of the top 5, and in fact, more than Moyes' United, and this season you've scored just 1 more than Chelsea, who have a game in hand, and 2 more than Spurs, who have 2 games in hand, and have conceded more than any team in the top 7, and as many as West Brom in 8th. You also scored 3 or more goals in a game 8 times in the first half of the season (winning 7, losing 1), but have managed it just twice so far in the second half (scoring exactly 3 both times), and in fact, had scored half of the 70 goals you have in the first 14 games, reaching 46 by the season's mid-point. You've scored 24 in the games since, and would need to average 5.5 goals a game in the remaining 4 fixtures to match the total from the first half of the season.
When my point was that your apparently lethal attack are prone to going through phases where they look about as dangerous as a marshmallow dagger, the figures and performances back me up.
So surely then the problem is still the defence? If we had a solid defence then even if we're having a bad day up top, we would still have enough to grind out a 1-0 or 2-1 win. At the very least we might draw instead of losing.
Right now we are a side that can concede at any minute, which means that we seem to frequently need more than one or two goals to win a game. We scored 101 goals in 13/14 which is up there with the highest goals scored for a season in the Premier League era, but conceded 50 whilst eventual champions City scored 102 (only one more than us) but conceded far fewer.
It says a lot that we've never struggled to score goals in the last five years but have always struggled defensively in that period, and have no trophies to show for it. United have struggled to score goals for two years now but haven't conceded many goals, and have two trophies in that period.
The defence is the issue, not the attack. I agree that it's not always lethal, but it would have us further up the table if we could defend properly.