Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

Sphaero said:
What? Kagawa, who is our most productive creative midfielder right now is a shadow of his former self? Sorry, but thats bs. Kagawa underperformed last season (like every single player bar Auba), but this did not change his class. Same with Sahin, who had to fill the void Gündogan left behind when the latter was injured and did very well in that regard. Last season he was injured most of the time, but was our best midfielder when he did play. His injury was infact the one which crippled our play the most as we lacked balance for a long time.

Truth is, that the squad quality was not the problem as this season shows, where nearly the same squad plays exciting and successful football. This freak half season had multiple reasons, some had to do with Klopp (lack of tactical flexibility, dulled methods after seven years), but the squad strength was not amongst it.
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I was referring to the season Klopp had before this one under Tuchel. My point is whether Klopp transfers did any good until he was at charge. This season is a bit irrelevant as he's not there anymore. Tuchel has different game to what Klopp has so players performing differently is also to be expected.

I'm was referring to shadow of former self when they first played for Klopp. This season obviously both have improved so did Mkhitaryan and Auba who improved every single season since he was brought in, but IMO this one he's much better than the last two...
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Noone is really dismissing him, but this is a Manchester United forum, and he's a Liverpool manager. Laughing at him and enjoying his failings is sort of what we do.
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That's rubbish, everyone on Liverpool forums absolutely loves LvG. Even after yesterday's defeat. There's nothing we dislike about him. :)
 
Dumbstar said:
That's rubbish, everyone on Liverpool forums absolutely loves LvG. Even after yesterday's defeat. There's nothing we dislike about him. :)
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Ha, the difference obviously is that we've been dominant for two decades, so anyone, not meeting those epic heights will be considered fine by you lot.

For us, Rodgers didn't even under achieve at Liverpool. He was keeping you at your existing level, if not higher at times, and not really under performing by some recent high standards. Same so far at Klopp. If Pulis takes over and you finish 12th, we'll love him too. But we can't stop laughing I'm afraid. That's just too much fun :D
 
Tomuś said:
I don't judge Klopp's choice because it was only natural given they're a small team. With Caulker up front he had enough ammunition aerially with Can, Benteke and Caulker. Everything I mean is double standards. Klopp shouldn't be lambasted for that but Van Gaal would have been. Not only on here but also in media.
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Van Gaal has had 18 months to impose himself on United, he's alienated sections of the media and the style of football has alienated a large section of the fanbase. He deserves to be criticised. Klopp has had a couple of months with Rodgers' squad and a lot of injuries so major criticism would be a bit premature.
 
Varun said:
Makes more sense to preserve the CB partnership, no? He wouldn't move to a 1 CB system so putting a sakho upfront and putting on a different CB at the back would be worse
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Well my point is more that he signed a defender (a very poor one at that) and he has twice been played up front in the space of two games. It just seems strange. Even Caulker himself said it was odd.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Well my point is more that he signed a defender (a very poor one at that) and he has twice been played up front in the space of two games. It just seems strange. Even Caulker himself said it was odd.
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He's an emergency loan who'll play when needed. There's nothing more to it.
 
Varun said:
He's an emergency loan who'll play when needed. There's nothing more to it.
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That's neither here nor there. People are jousting because it's Liverpool, who signed a pretty wank defender, that has been played up front in both his games to-date. I mean this is the day after our own fairly wank team beat Liverpool at Anfield. Given the mass hysteria around here and in the media when Klopp was appointed, it's kind of natural on a United forum that he's going to get stick.
 
Robbie Boy said:
That's neither here nor there. People are jousting because it's Liverpool, who signed a pretty wank defender, that has been played up front in both his games to-date. I mean this is the day after our own fairly wank team beat Liverpool at Anfield. Given the mass hysteria around here and in the media when Klopp was appointed, it's kind of natural on a United forum that he's going to get stick.
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Yup, absolutely natural he'll get stick as that's kind of the theme here tbh. Him doing poorly so far is a big relief to people here as most would have taken him in an instant. It's what led to the "dodged a bullet" posts. Fact is though, it's a bizarre thing to have a go at him for. He isn't the first manager to do it, won't be the last.
 
Varun said:
Yup, absolutely natural he'll get stick as that's kind of the theme here tbh. Him doing poorly so far is a big relief to people here as most would have taken him in an instant. It's what led to the "dodged a bullet" posts. Fact is though, it's a bizarre thing to have a go at him for. He isn't the first manager to do it, won't be the last.
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It's the theme with fans all around the world. They're our most bitter rivals so obviously our fans will revel in Klopp's relative failings to date, especially given the fanfare that accompanied his arrival. I don't think anyone really cares about Caulker playing up-top; it's merely a dig for the sake of a dig.
 
Robbie Boy said:
It's the theme with fans all around the world. They're our most bitter rivals so obviously our fans will revel in Klopp's relative failings to date, especially given the fanfare that accompanied his arrival. I don't think anyone really cares about Caulker playing up-top; it's merely a dig for the sake of a dig.
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Exactly.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Ciro Immobile was a complete flop. Same can be said for Adrian Ramos. What can we say for Kampl sold after one season? Kagawa return? Ginter plays for the second side now, Sokratis was good in his first season, crap in the second, Mkhitaryan under Klopp had like 15 games 1 assist, Aubameyang was also pretty inconsistent and I'm not sure if we're crediting the right guy for their game this season as they have new manager that has currently taken them to 2nd.

Resigning Sahin has also been underwhelming. So no it's not just Immobile.


Half a season? Mourinho was sacked for same brief period.

IN
Ji Dong-won Free
Adrián Ramos €11,000,000
Nuri Şahin €7,000,000
Ciro Immobile €19,500,000
Matthias Ginter €10,000,000
Shinji Kagawa €8,000,000
Kevin Kampl €12,000,000

Out
Robert Lewandowski Free
Manuel Friedrich Free
Julian Schieber Undisclosed
Ji Dong-won Undisclosed

^^^ those are the ins and outs prior to that season. Who exactly of those ins can be considered a success?
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Holy shit. What a post.

Immobile and Ramos were flops, no doubt.
Kampl was not necessarily a bad signing, he didn't work out for Dortmund, but they sold him almost for the same fee they paid themselves and he's showing at Leverkusen that he's a decent player.
Kagawa has been great, he apparently came to Dortmund injured and with fitness deficits and thus struggled at the start, but he basically got better with every game after the winter break.
Ginter was one of the best Bundesliga fullbacks this season, scoring twice and assisting 7 in the league alone.
Sokratis was actually a pretty consistent performer, probably Dortmund's best CB last season.
Considering that he had to adapt the switch form Ukraine to Germany and missed most of the pre season Mkhitaryan had a decent first season, his second was crap, but he got a lot better towards the end of it.
Sahin was a great buy, probably Dortmund's most missed player last season - during the 6 starts he picked up between injuries they won four an drew one, in the middle of their crisis.
Aubameyang had a sort of inconsistent first season, when he was played on the wing. But if you look at the whole season he was probably Dortmund's best attacker in 14/15.

Besides, Klopp didn't sign those players by himself, Dortmund work with a DoF.

How can you judge those things when you obviously know so little about them.
 
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Klopp's a great manager and will prove it in time. He isn't, however, a miracle worker. Henderson is terrible. Milner is terrible. Lallana is terrible. Lucas is terrible. Mignolet is terrible. Firmino, despite his goals v Arsenal, is a dud too. Proper backing by their board and a chance to get his own side in and get rid of the duds and he'll be fine.
 
Pink Moon said:
Klopp's a great manager and will prove it in time. He isn't, however, a miracle worker. Henderson is terrible. Milner is terrible. Lallana is terrible. Lucas is terrible. Mignolet is terrible. Firmino, despite his goals v Arsenal, is a dud too. Proper backing by their board and a chance to get his own side in and get rid of the duds and he'll be fine.
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Henderson was one of their best players two years ago and Milner played well for City last year. Lallana was part of one of the best attacking trios in the league under Pochetinno. Firmino cost £30 million and was rated in the Bundesliga.
 
iBoss said:
Henderson was one of their best players two years ago and Milner played well for City last year. Lallana was part of one of the best attacking trios in the league under Pochetinno. Firmino cost £30 million and was rated in the Bundesliga.
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Firmino also created 5 chances against us yesterday and has looked rather good recently. Milner has been poor though as has Henderson (this season). But Lallana, well well well, he's just plain gash.
 
do.ob said:
Holy shit. What a post.

Immobile and Ramos were flops, no doubt.
Kampl was not necessarily a bad signing, he didn't work out for Dortmund, but they sold him almost for the same fee they paid themselves and he's showing at Leverkusen that he's a decent player.
Kagawa has been great, he apparently came to Dortmund injured and with fitness deficits and thus struggled at the start, but he basically got better with every game.
Ginter was one of the best Bundesliga fullbacks this season, scoring twice and assisting 7 in the league alone.
Sokratis was actually a pretty consistent performer, probably Dortmund's best CB last season.
Considering that he had to adapt the switch form Ukraine to Germany and missed most of the pre season Mkhitaryan had a decent first season, his second was crap, but he got a lot better towards the end of it.
Sahin was a great buy, probably Dortmund's most missed player last season - during the 6 starts he picked up between injuries they won four an drew one, in the middle of their crisis.
Aubameyang had a sort of inconsistent first season, when he was played on the wing. But if you look at the whole season he was probably Dortmund's best attacker in 14/15.

Besides, Klopp didn't sign those players by himself, Dortmund work with a DoF.
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Again my post was towards how those players performed under Klopp, not this season under Tuchel. Kampl didn't make it at Dortmund hence he was sold to Leverkusen.

Kagawa was not great last season, he improved at the end of it but overall he was not the same as his first stint at Dortmund under Klopp.

For Ginter - again he's playing full back under Tuchel. For Klopp he was either a CB or a DM, can't see how his form now is relevant for what he does at another position, different to the one Klopp used him at.

Sokratis as I said he's done pretty well in his first season, in his last I think he was as well underperforming.

How is Sahin a great buy since he played like 6 games for almost 2 seasons so far?

Aubameyang was very inconsistent in his first season and during the spell Dortmund went rock bottom he was missing a lot. Of course he gradually improved but this season he seems twice the player he was in the first two. Of course he had to bed in but question remains if Klopp would use him the same way Tuchel is using him.
 
iBoss said:
They have all looked good players under different managers so they have something to offer.
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I don't think Lallana has, no. His level is well below a top team. In his last 30 PL games he has a sum total of 1 goal and 1 assist - he has also been subbed in half his starts this season. Suggesting that a player is valuable to his current club based on his past exploits (for a much smaller club) is both simplistic and naive. The stats tell the story with Lallana; he epitomises mediocrity.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Again my post was towards how those players performed under Klopp, not this season under Tuchel. Kampl didn't make it at Dortmund hence he was sold to Leverkusen.

Kagawa was not great last season, he improved at the end of it but overall he was not the same as his first stint at Dortmund under Klopp.

For Ginter - again he's playing full back under Tuchel. For Klopp he was either a CB or a DM, can't see how his form now is relevant for what he does at another position, different to the one Klopp used him at.

Sokratis as I said he's done pretty well in his first season, in his last I think he was as well underperforming.

How is Sahin a great buy since he played like 6 games for almost 2 seasons so far?

Aubameyang was very inconsistent in his first season and during the spell Dortmund went rock bottom he was missing a lot. Of course he gradually improved but this season he seems twice the player he was in the first two. Of course he had to bed in but question remains if Klopp would use him the same way Tuchel is using him.
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Well you said: "Ginter is playing for the scond side now", so that was a bit misleading.

Sahin gave Dortmund a shit load of much missed structure. He was precisely what Dortmund were missing, due to Kehl's and Bender's limitations and he's supposedly a leader within the team, so unless you want to blame Klopp for not foreseeing injury problems two years down the road he was a very good buy.

What you seem to miss completely is that Dortmund up to this point couldn't afford to buy finished players, so they went for players who were a bit underperforming or under the radar and/or youngsters.
So again: if you buy someone who is bereaved of every ounce of confidence, injured and who has a fitness deficit (like Kagawa) it's not exactly a miracle that he needs time to adapt, especially if you don't give him a pre season.
Or if you buy an inexperienced 20 year old from a relegation candidate, it's no miracle if he needs some time to find a place in a severely struggling side.
Given the dire over all form of their team Sokratis and Aubameyang didn't have especially bad seasons in relation to their team mates, Auba in particular often was Dortmund's saving grace.


Dortmund worked their way up from the depths of the middle of nowhere to a very clear number two position in Germany and top 10 in Europe, while net spending tiny sums compared to their competitors and winning some trophies in the process, but somehow I'm reading that their transfers were crap. It's bizarre.
 
iBoss said:
Henderson was one of their best players two years ago and Milner played well for City last year. Lallana was part of one of the best attacking trios in the league under Pochetinno. Firmino cost £30 million and was rated in the Bundesliga.
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Klopp didn't sign any of them though, so it's not guaranteed that any of them will suit his preferred style of play.
 
do.ob said:
Well you said: "Ginter is playing for the scond side now", so that was a bit misleading.

Sahin gave Dortmund a shit load of much missed structure. He was precisely what Dortmund were missing, due to Kehl's and Bender's limitations and he's supposedly a leader within the team, so unless you want to blame Klopp for not foreseeing injury problems two years down the road he was a very good buy.

What you seem to miss completely is that Dortmund up to this point couldn't afford to buy finished players, so they went for players who were a bit underperforming or under the radar and/or youngsters.
So again: if you buy someone who is bereaved of every ounce of confidence, injured and who has a fitness deficit (like Kagawa) it's not exactly a miracle that he needs time to adapt, especially if you don't give him a pre season.
Or if you buy an inexperienced 20 year old from a relegation candidate, it's no miracle if he needs some time to find a place in a severely struggling side.
Given the dire over all form of their team Sokratis and Aubameyang didn't have especially bad seasons in relation to their team mates, Auba in particular often was Dortmund's saving grace.
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yeah on Ginter I should've made it more clear.

Sahin effect IMO was negligent since he came back to Dortmund - always injured came back for those 6 games which IMO were won bu Auba, Reus and Gundogan as key figures. If he is sold the coming summer his second stint will surely be a flop? 6 games for 2 seasons for 7 mln Euros is in the Dyer league of transfers...

As for the bolded:

I'm not arguing against any of that. However the general consensus is that Klopp always found and unearthed those gems and apart from Immobile all his buys were excellent, which IMO is not true. Sure he had top buys but he also had flops, as other managers.

And for the other part - nobody is giving credit for Pearson for assembling the core for the Leicester team that is top right now. Same can be said for the team Tuchel inherited. We can't be sure if Auba and Mkhitaryan would have the same season they are having now.

Auba was probably the best out of that lot that he bought in his last season. Let's not forget that Mkhitaryan was bought for 25m EUR and under Klopp was called a flop most of the time.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Sahin effect IMO was negligent since he came back to Dortmund - always injured came back for those 6 games which IMO were won bu Auba, Reus and Gundogan as key figures. If he is sold the coming summer his second stint will surely be a flop? 6 games for 2 seasons for 7 mln Euros is in the Dyer league of transfers...
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What do you mean by 'those 6 games'? He struggled in the 2nd half of 12/13 when he returned in January and was only a back-up, but still played quite a bit in the league. Then he played pretty much every game in 13/14, 48 in total, and was easily Dortmund's best midfielder. How is that a bad deal for 7million? It sucks that he struggled with severe injuries for 18 months now, but he's back at Dortmund for 3 full years already and probably has no desire to leave again. Of course it was a great deal for Dortmund to buy him back for such a low price.
 
Balu said:
What do you mean by 'those 6 games'? He struggled in the 2nd half of 12/13 when he returned in January and was only a back-up, but still played quite a bit in the league. Then he played pretty much every game in 13/14, 48 in total, and was easily Dortmund's best midfielder. How is that a bad deal for 7million? It sucks that he struggled with severe injuries for 18 months now, but he's back at Dortmund for 3 full years already and probably has no desire to leave again. Of course it was a great deal for Dortmund to buy him back for such a low price.
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In the 12/13 season he was loaned in and was good I agree. Dortmund bought him after that season for that fee.
 
Enigma_87 said:
In the 12/13 season he was loaned in and was good I agree. Dortmund bought him after that season for that fee.
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Well, that's an odd way of looking at it. Surely you can't just say the loan deal doesn't count at all and just focus on the permanent move? Either look at it overall and say it was still a pretty good 2nd spell so far for Sahin. Or look at both separately and say that the 18months loan deal was sensational and the buy afterwards was a flop because he couldn't foresee a severe injury. That would be a bit silly in my opinion, but if you want to do it like that, fair enough.
 
The way some Liverpool fans are talking, you'd swear Klopp was going to be a guaranteed success. While he deserves a lot of time for what he's done for Dortmund, this league is a different monster altogether and it also depends if he gets the players he wants and offloads the players that need to go. If they finish outside the top four again, it's unlikely he'll achieve that.
 
Balu said:
Well, that's an odd way of looking at it. Surely you can't just say the loan deal doesn't count at all and just focus on the permanent move? Either look at it overall and say it was still a pretty good 2nd spell so far for Sahin. Or look at both separately and say that the 18months loan deal was sensational and the buy afterwards was a flop because he couldn't foresee a severe injury. That would be a bit silly in my opinion, but if you want to do it like that, fair enough.
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It's a bit same like Hargreaves buy - he was quite good in his first season then injuries took him out and was generally considered as a flop.

Sahin was good in the beginning of the loan I agree, but IMO he was better in his first stint which guaranteed him moves to Real and then to Pool based on that reputation. And at that time, Dortmund had most of their key players and their defence was still very good. It was the season after when some of their key players left and all went tits up for a short while.

But yeah Sahin loan deal was great move as his reputation was struck due to his limited game time in Real and Pool, and then his permanent move was a bit of a wash(with hindsight of course in mind).
 
Robbie Boy said:
I don't think Lallana has, no. His level is well below a top team. In his last 30 PL games he has a sum total of 1 goal and 1 assist - he has also been subbed in half his starts this season. Suggesting that a player is valuable to his current club based on his past exploits (for a much smaller club) is both simplistic and naive. The stats tell the story with Lallana; he epitomises mediocrity.
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That Southampton team ended up in 8th, played better football and Lallana was excellent. Liverpool are currently 9th. There is not that much difference.
 
Eckers99 said:
Klopp didn't sign any of them though, so it's not guaranteed that any of them will suit his preferred style of play.
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The reason they sacked Rodgers midway through the season was because they thought he wasnt getting the best out of the players. Now if Klopp accepted appointment mid season, the whole its not his players can only be used as an excuse to an extent.
 
prath92 said:
The reason they sacked Rodgers midway through the season was because they thought he wasnt getting the best out of the players. Now if Klopp accepted appointment mid season, the whole its not his players can only be used as an excuse to an extent.
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Can we not say midseason. It was quite early on. About one sixth of the games Liverpool will play this year were under Rodgers.
 
iBoss said:
Henderson was one of their best players two years ago and Milner played well for City last year. Lallana was part of one of the best attacking trios in the league under Pochetinno. Firmino cost £30 million and was rated in the Bundesliga.
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Henderson being one of their best players is precisely my point. Henderson and Milner are work horses and not much more.

Rickie Lambert was part of that trio, too...

Firmino's price tag doesn't mean much. English teams always pay over the odds. Andy Carroll kinda ruined any talk of transfer fees reflecting a player's ability.
 
The number of excuses for this clown:rolleyes:

He should be getting more out of the player they currently have. Right now he's not even getting as much out of them as Rodgers did. All this talk about the entire team being terrible is nonsense. He sure as feck wasn't brought in with the idea that he had a free pass for the season. If he fails to finish top 4 then he quite simply has failed in his first season.
 
Akash said:
The number of excuses for this clown:rolleyes:

He should be getting more out of the player they currently have. Right now he's not even getting as much out of them as Rodgers did. All this talk about the entire team being terrible is nonsense. He sure as feck wasn't brought in with the idea that he had a free pass for the season. If he fails to finish top 4 then he quite simply has failed in his first season.
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To be fair he needs to learn the league first. He only managed in the Bundesliga so far, he should be given more time and judged next season I agree.

However I sand by my initial prediction that he won't be a successful manager for them in the end(based on expectations of course).
 
Pink Moon said:
Henderson being one of their best players is precisely my point. Henderson and Milner are work horses and not much more.

Rickie Lambert was part of that trio, too...

Firmino's price tag doesn't mean much. English teams always pay over the odds. Andy Carroll kinda ruined any talk of transfer fees reflecting a player's ability.
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Henderson was one of the better CM's in the league when they finished 2nd.
Lambert being part of the trio means what?
Firmino was rated. Regardless he has something to offer.
 
Enigma_87 said:
To be fair he needs to learn the league first. He only managed in the Bundesliga so far, he should be given more time and judged next season I agree.

However I sand by my initial prediction that he won't be a successful manager for them in the end(based on expectations of course).
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Learn the league? Nah. Shoddy excuse. It's still 22 players kicking the ball about just like in any other league. He's been out of his depth so far.
 
iBoss said:
Henderson was one of the better CM's in the league when they finished 2nd.
Lambert being part of the trio means what?
Firmino was rated. Regardless he has something to offer.
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You were talking about Lallana being part of an exciting attacking trio like it actually meant something. Rickie Lambert was the main man in that attacking trio and he's a donkey.
 
Akash said:
He's been out of his depth so far.
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No he hasn't been. He's inherited a squad that is crap. The United squad is shocking (sorry, but it just is) yet none of their players would walk into the United side (which is funny considering they totally outplayed them yesterday). That gives you an idea of how bad it actually is.
 
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