Jurgen Klopp and Dortmund

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Barca and the whole of La Masia are bought up on the basis of POSSESSION POSSESSION POSSESSION.

To think they would hire Klopp, and completely throw that practice out the window is pretty ridiculous.

He doesn't seem the type of guy who would want to go there, and play by their rules either.
 
they need to pull their head out their asses and be prepared to change their style at least in some games on a temp basis or face being left behind.

That one off team of a few years ago is gone. They need to deal with it or get used to 2nd or 3rd best.
 
Blasphemy said:
Absolute bollocks.
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Whilst "easily the best" is certainly over the top, there is not another working manager on the planet I would pick over Klopp for United at this minute. He's essentially perfect for us. He ticks absolutely every box.
 
Mad Winger said:
We have different definitions of "best" then.

Pep was tossed right into the goldmine that is Barcelona and Bayern. Mourinho's had Chelsea, Inter and Real, with loads of financial backing every time. Yes, he won the CL with Porto, but that was a weird year for football, and he had a lot of luck along the way.

Klopp has worked his magic in Germany with two teams. He promoted the first, and turned the other team from nearly relegated to Champions. I'd like to see Pep, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancelotti etc do that.
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Simeone has taken Atletico to the top of the table which features both Barca and Real. He's won the Europa League, Super cup and Copa Del Ray (beating Real in the final). He has done this whilst creating a good team and buying well with not much funds. Taken Atletico to the Semis of the CL, easily topping their group and knocking Barca out without losing in either tie.
His team are very well structured and organised. He has the best defence in the league and also an attack potent enough to win most games. This is despite selling Falcao. Simeone wins for me. His team play for him, the belief in each and every one of them is clear to see. That is all down to him. The job he has done is nothing short of magnificent.
 
Red Shorts said:
What the feck has Simeone been doing the past 2 seasons?
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Fair play, I guess Simone should be considered a top manager now that Atletico is in the semis and actually have a chance at winning La Liga.

But I'd still put Klopp way ahead of him. In the last 3 seasons, he's won the Bundesliga twice, the German cup once, and reached a CL final. That's not bad for a team that was considered lower half/relegation material before he came.
 
A subtle but significant change in style is exactly what Barcelona need right now. If this guy is good at disciplining super-star players than he would be exactly what we need.
 
iBoss said:
Simeone has taken Atletico to the top of the table which features both Barca and Real. He's won the Europa League, Super cup and Copa Del Ray (beating Real in the final). He has done this whilst creating a good team and buying well with not much funds. Taken Atletico to the Semis of the CL, easily topping their group and knocking Barca out without losing in either tie.
His team are very well structured and organised. He has the best defence in the league and also an attack potent enough to win most games. This is despite selling Falcao. Simeone wins for me. His team play for him, the belief in each and every one of them is clear to see. That is all down to him. The job he has done is nothing short of magnificent.
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Dortmund was in a much worse state when Klopp took over. And Klopp has still won more trophies of significance. Imo, it's more impressive to reach the CL final than it is to win the European Cup.

Klopp has also lost Sahin, Kagawa, Götze and soon Lewandowski. And suffered long-term injuries on important players.
 
Mad Winger said:
Fair play, I guess Simone should be considered a top manager now that Atletico is in the semis and actually have a chance at winning La Liga.

But I'd still put Klopp way ahead of him. In the last 3 seasons, he's won the Bundesliga twice, the German cup once, and reached a CL final. That's not bad for a team that was considered lower half/relegation material before he came.
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Oh he's without a doubt ahead, and one of the best in the world, if not the best (hard to call between him and Guardiola for me). I love both of their philosophies and their tactics, and wouldn't think twice about them coming here. There is something about Klopp in his demeanor that separates him from the others; he shows a passion and love for the club like few I have ever seen at the tp level, and someone who doesn't seem satisfied until every part of his team is working the way he wants it to. Every interview I see him in is of pure intelligence, and I hang onto every word he says because he has that aura too about him, someone you can imagine all of the players rallying behind. These traits are of the highest management level for me.
 
Mad Winger said:
Dortmund was in a much worse state when Klopp took over. And Klopp has still won more trophies of significance. Imo, it's more impressive to reach the CL final than it is to win the European Cup.

Klopp has also lost Sahin, Kagawa, Götze and soon Lewandowski. And suffered long-term injuries on important players.
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Atletico will probably reach the CL final anyway. Klopp has had injuries, yeah, but so do most teams. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he has proven he can get a team to play at a very high level, but some of the performances this season still count against him.

Klopp has won the Bundesliga. Simeone might still win La Liga.

Red Shorts said:
Oh he's without a doubt ahead, and one of the best in the world, if not the best (hard to call between him and Guardiola for me). I love both of their philosophies and their tactics, and wouldn't think twice about them coming here. There is something about Klopp in his demeanor that separates him from the others; he shows a passion and love for the club like few I have ever seen at the tp level, and someone who doesn't seem satisfied until every part of his team is working the way he wants it to. Every interview I see him in is of pure intelligence, and I hang onto every word he says because he has that aura too about him, someone you can imagine all of the players rallying behind. These traits are of the highest management level for me.
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You could say the exact same about Simeone, bar the interview bit.
 
malappapper said:
A subtle but significant change in style is exactly what Barcelona need right now. If this guy is good at disciplining super-star players than he would be exactly what we need.
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I'm not sure what this means. Klopp's brand of football is radically different to the style Barca traditionally employ though. That doesn't rule Klopp out completely of course (Rijkaard started the 2006 CL final with a midfield 3 of Edmilson, Van Bommel and Deco - Xavi and Iniesta were on the bench), but it wouldn't be a natural fit.
 
Mad Winger said:
We have different definitions of "best" then.

Pep was tossed right into the goldmine that is Barcelona and Bayern. Mourinho's had Chelsea, Inter and Real, with loads of financial backing every time. Yes, he won the CL with Porto, but that was a weird year for football, and he had a lot of luck along the way.

Klopp has worked his magic in Germany with two teams. He promoted the first, and turned the other team from nearly relegated to Champions. I'd like to see Pep, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancelotti etc do that.
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Utter nonsense. You're the best manager in the world when you've won Champions League's, World Cup's, European Championships and other major trophies. You're not the best when you do well comparative to how poor/crap your team is otherwise for my money Tony Pulis is the best manager in the Premier League and possibly Europe.

No one would dream of calling a player the best in the world until he'd led a team to European or International glory and the exact same standards should apply to managers. Klopp is great, I like him a lot and would love for him to come here but lesser clubs win big leagues all the time. Montpellier, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart and possibly Liverpool this season. It happens, it's a great achievement but it doesn't make you the best in the world. That is mental.

By your definition Sir Alex wasn't a top manager. Or at least not since the 80s. Since then he's always managed a big club with loads of money, which apparently means you can't be the best manager in the world.

Ubik said:
Whilst "easily the best" is certainly over the top, there is not another working manager on the planet I would pick over Klopp for United at this minute. He's essentially perfect for us. He ticks absolutely every box.
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I'd have Guardiola over him.

DJ Jeff said:
Possession football hasn't had it's day, it's just getting found out at Barca because Xavi isn't what he was, their manager is very very poor, and they aren't playing the same system.

But more pointedly, to appoint Klopp is to attempt to change players who have been playing the same style of football, growing up with it, since they were 6 and 7 years old together. It would never work. Some things just aren't meant to change - possession football at Barcelona is ingrained at the youngest age.
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I don't think it's completely out of the realms of possibility that Klopp could adapt to Barcelona and Barcelona to him. Mourinho went to Real as a very defensive manager to a club who traditionally have zero interest at all in defending but they made it work and found a style everyone was happy with.
 
Blasphemy said:
I'd have Guardiola over him.
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I wouldn't exactly turn him down either, but I think Klopp would be a better fit here. Personal preference though I guess. Anyway, descending from dreamworld...
 
iBoss said:
Atletico will probably reach the CL final anyway. Klopp has had injuries, yeah, but so do most teams. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he has proven he can get a team to play at a very high level, but some of the performances this season still count against him.

Klopp has won the Bundesliga. Simeone might still win La Liga.



You could say the exact same about Simeone, bar the interview bit.
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I don't think you get it.
 
iBoss said:
Atletico will probably reach the CL final anyway. Klopp has had injuries, yeah, but so do most teams. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he has proven he can get a team to play at a very high level, but some of the performances this season still count against him.
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This season he lost Götze. Gündogan plus most of the defense has been out with injuries. And Bayern signed Lewandowski half-way through the season, obviously stirring things up. Considering his lack of squad depth(because of lacking funds), this is pretty much gonna be the death of the season. However he's still in second place in Germany, and nearly made the semi-final. He also took them out of "the group of death" for the second year in a row, finishing first on both occassions.

Simone is the flavor of the month. If he manages to win the CL or La Liga, then I'll start to compare him to Klopp. But so far, Klopp is clearly ahead.
 
We really don't have the team to play Guardiola's style right now, it would take him a good couple of years for him to have the kind of setup he does at Bayern and did at Barca.
 
Infra-red said:
I'm not sure what this means. Klopp's brand of football is radically different to the style Barca traditionally employ though. That doesn't rule Klopp out completely of course (Rijkaard started the 2006 CL final with a midfield 3 of Edmilson, Van Bommel and Deco - Xavi and Iniesta were on the bench), but it wouldn't be a natural fit.
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Xavi was injured in 2006. Iniesta was a shock omission on the part of the Rijkaard.

The notion that Barcelona have been always playing 80% possession football with endless triangles is largely a myth. I invite you to sit through any Barcelona game of the 2008/09 season (Pep's first) and you would find that team's style of play unrecognisable in comparison with what you see today, and especially from the 11/12 season onwards.
 
Mad Winger said:
This season he lost Götze. Gündogan plus most of the defense has been out with injuries. And Bayern signed Lewandowski half-way through the season, obviously stirring things up. Considering his lack of squad depth(because of lacking funds), this is pretty much gonna be the death of the season. However he's still in second place in Germany, and nearly made the semi-final. He also took them out of "the group of death" for the second year in a row, finishing first on both occassions.

Simone is the flavor of the month. If he manages to win the CL or La Liga, then I'll start to compare him to Klopp. But so far, Klopp is clearly ahead.
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Sorry, but this is utter bollocks. The Europa league, the UEFA super cup beating Chelsea 4-1, the Copa Del Rey against Madrid, 3rd place last year which was the best finish in nearly 20 years, a semi final in the CL and leading La Liga against a half billion pound-odd Madrid and a still strong Barca all done in under 3 years, and he is flavour of the month? If you are going to use such a term, do your research before.
 
Blasphemy said:
Utter nonsense. You're the best manager in the world when you've won Champions League's, World Cup's, European Championships and other major trophies. You're not the best when you do well comparative to how poor/crap your team is otherwise for my money Tony Pulis is the best manager in the Premier League and possibly Europe.

No one would dream of calling a player the best in the world until he'd led a team to European or International glory and the exact same standards should apply to managers. Klopp is great, I like him a lot and would love for him to come here but lesser clubs win big leagues all the time. Montpellier, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart and possibly Liverpool this season. It happens, it's a great achievement but it doesn't make you the best in the world. That is mental.

By your definition Sir Alex wasn't a top manager. Or at least not since the 80s. Since then he's always managed a big club with loads of money, which apparently means you can't be the best manager in the world.
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What a mess of a post...

I think Klopp is best considering his funds. He's effectively turned Dortmund into a powerhouse in Germany in a matter of years. He's far from being just "the flavor of the month". He's also just had 3 chances on the Champions League, and he's been placed in the group of death twice. I'd like to see any manager win the Champions League in Klopp's shoes. Even Fergie wouldn't have been able to do that.

The CL is often a fluke tournament as well. Porto '04, Liverpool '05, and Chelsea '12 prove that.

And of course Sir Alex was a top manager. He's the greatest ever. His number of titles and the fact that he built his own empire proves that. Klopp has built his own empire as well, and he's started to win a lot of titles. The problem is that Klopp is a manager in 2014. Money controls everything now. Had this been 25 years ago, then chances are the biggest team in Germany would have been Dortmund, not Bayern.
 
Mad Winger said:
This season he lost Götze. Gündogan plus most of the defense has been out with injuries. And Bayern signed Lewandowski half-way through the season, obviously stirring things up. Considering his lack of squad depth(because of lacking funds), this is pretty much gonna be the death of the season. However he's still in second place in Germany, and nearly made the semi-final. He also took them out of "the group of death" for the second year in a row, finishing first on both occassions.

Simone is the flavor of the month. If he manages to win the CL or La Liga, then I'll start to compare him to Klopp. But so far, Klopp is clearly ahead.
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Klopp only has one major opponent domestically, Simeone has two. Klopp has more money than Simeone, Barca/Real have more money than Bayern. And honestly now, how good were Bayern before last year? They had two extremely mediocre domestic season for Dortmund to win the Bundesliga. Barcelona and Real always push each other from a minimum of 85 points, up to 100 in the league. As for Klopp's CL success, he did well in it last year, the year before Dortmund failed miserably in the GS.

Simeone also managed to have Atletico challenging on both fronts, when has Dortmund managed on both fronts?

Simeone is not flavour of the month, he has completely stole the show regarding managers. Completely!
 
Red Shorts said:
Sorry, but this is utter bollocks. The Europa league, the UEFA super cup beating Chelsea 4-1, the Copa Del Rey against Madrid, 3rd place last year which was the best finish in nearly 20 years, a semi final in the CL and leading La Liga against a half billion pound-odd Madrid and a still strong Barca all done in under 3 years, and he is flavour of the month? If you are going to use such a term, do your research before.
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The Super Cup is one game. It's a glorified Community Shield. The Europa Cup is hardly a big trophy either. The biggest teams in that tournament are usually more focused on their domestic league. I'd put the Europa Cup roughly around the same level as the Copa Del Rey, The FA Cup, and the German Cup...

So Simone has two minor cup triumphs up until now, and he's currently having a hell of a season. Needless to say he's doing really well, but I feel that when people say that he's right up there with Klopp etc, it sounds like "flavor of the month". The domestic leagues and the Champions League is what matters the most. The minor cups are just a sweet bonus.
 
Can't they just both be considered excellent managers? People can have their preferences but they've both achieved a lot in their circumstances, seems weird to put down either to big up the other.
 
Mad Winger said:
The Super Cup is one game. It's a glorified Community Shield. The Europa Cup is hardly a big trophy either. The biggest teams in that tournament are usually more focused on their domestic league. I'd put the Europa Cup roughly around the same level as the Copa Del Rey, The FA Cup, and the German Cup...

So Simone has two minor cup triumphs up until now, and he's currently having a hell of a season. Needless to say he's doing really well, but I feel that when people say that he's right up there with Klopp etc, it sounds like "flavor of the month". The domestic leagues and the Champions League is what matters the most. The minor cups are just a sweet bonus.
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And he's doing an incredible job in both. I get your point that he will have to prove himself over a sustained period of time, but he's already demonstrated the credentials to be a superb, top class manager.
 
Ubik said:
Can't they just both be considered excellent managers? People can have their preferences but they've both achieved a lot in their circumstances, seems weird to put down either to big up the other.
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I think Simone is great.

I just think Klopp is better. That's all.
 
Klopp excites me more than any male human being should. We must get him.

These are my words, but I imagine someone in our boardroom is saying the same thing, right?
 
Mad Winger said:
This season he lost Götze. Gündogan plus most of the defense has been out with injuries. And Bayern signed Lewandowski half-way through the season, obviously stirring things up. Considering his lack of squad depth(because of lacking funds), this is pretty much gonna be the death of the season. However he's still in second place in Germany, and nearly made the semi-final. He also took them out of "the group of death" for the second year in a row, finishing first on both occassions.

Simone is the flavor of the month. If he manages to win the CL or La Liga, then I'll start to compare him to Klopp. But so far, Klopp is clearly ahead.
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Simeone has built this team over a couple of seasons. They are visibly getting better under him.
Yeah, Dortmund have had injuries but I am pretty sure Schalke had quite a few injuries this season also. I don't blame Klopp for not keeping up with Bayern, that was going to be an impossible task. I do however feel they have been poor this season (yes, taking into account the injuries as well).
 
Woodzy said:
Klopp excites me more than any male human being should. We must get him.

These are my words, but I imagine someone in our boardroom is saying the same thing, right?
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So much about the guy seems incredibly unique and entertaining. Whereas Moyes is the antithesis of that: boring, fairly hopeless, not exciting in playing style, Klopp is inventive and strikes you as an incredibly charismatic person with a vision and a unique view of the game.
 
Klopp leaving Dortmund for somewhere other than to us would really put the exclamation point on this wonderful season :lol: :(
 
Antisocial said:
Klopp leaving Dortmund for somewhere other than to us would really put the exclamation point on this wonderful season :lol: :(
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Wenger retiring and Klopp going to Arsenal would add a second exclamation point, with Arsenal probably walking over us next season as they play an exciting new brand of football.
 
Mad Winger said:
The Super Cup is one game. It's a glorified Community Shield. The Europa Cup is hardly a big trophy either. The biggest teams in that tournament are usually more focused on their domestic league. I'd put the Europa Cup roughly around the same level as the Copa Del Rey, The FA Cup, and the German Cup...

So Simone has two minor cup triumphs up until now, and he's currently having a hell of a season. Needless to say he's doing really well, but I feel that when people say that he's right up there with Klopp etc, it sounds like "flavor of the month". The domestic leagues and the Champions League is what matters the most. The minor cups are just a sweet bonus.
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That is simply not true. The Europa League is extremely tough to win. No Sheffield United, Mirandes or Kaiserslautern can reach the semis of the EL, which is exactly what you get in domestic cups sometimes.
 
Mad Winger said:
I think Simone is great.

I just think Klopp is better. That's all.
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It's certainly easy to get over enthusiastic about Klopp and his majestic beard, it's true. Would be a more exciting signing than any player mooted of late.

Got mooted into a sentence at last, excellent.
 
Getsme said:
How is it absolute bollocks? It's debatable, but it's far from being absolute bollocks.
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Because you're not the best manager in the world when you haven't won a single thing outside of Germany. The best managers in the world right now are comfortably Guardiola and Mourinho.
 
Mad Winger said:
What a mess of a post...

I think Klopp is best considering his funds. He's effectively turned Dortmund into a powerhouse in Germany in a matter of years. He's far from being just "the flavor of the month". He's also just had 3 chances on the Champions League, and he's been placed in the group of death twice. I'd like to see any manager win the Champions League in Klopp's shoes. Even Fergie wouldn't have been able to do that.
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Mourinho did it.
 
malappapper said:
Xavi was injured in 2006. Iniesta was a shock omission on the part of the Rijkaard.

The notion that Barcelona have been always playing 80% possession football with endless triangles is largely a myth. I invite you to sit through any Barcelona game of the 2008/09 season (Pep's first) and you would find that team's style of play unrecognisable in comparison with what you see today, and especially from the 11/12 season onwards.
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That was my point.
 
Blasphemy said:
Because you're not the best manager in the world when you haven't won a single thing outside of Germany. The best managers in the world right now are comfortably Guardiola and Mourinho.
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So you have to manage in other countries before you can be considered great? :wenger:
 
Blasphemy said:
Because you're not the best manager in the world when you haven't won a single thing outside of Germany. The best managers in the world right now are comfortably Guardiola and Mourinho.
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Mourinho and Pep have been lucky for reasons that many of us sure do understand. Simeone and Klopp have achieved a lot with very little, that is what makes a great manager for me.
 
What did Barca play then, if not possession football? Also given that it was Guardiola's first season, can that not be an indication that they had yet to play his style? It's not a myth that Barcelona play possession football, that has been their modus operandi for the last few years. Also looking at Bayern now, Guardiola has done a similar thing to them. Watching us play against Bayern felt very similar to watching us against Barca.
 
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