You do realise you are the one who used 1.4 disposed "per game". So I responded it fairly. Check them out. The other four players are also per game.
Juan Mata
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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You do realise you are the one who used 1.4 disposed "per game". So I responded it fairly. Check them out. The other four players are also per game.
No, I meant when you were writing with regards to Chelsea Under Mou- he hardly had any starts, so that figure would be skewed
11 league starts + 2 subs. I don't think 2 subs will skew it much.
I haven't said anywhere Mata was good. All I'm saying is his stats are worse because of our style, which is further supported by stats of all our players. Also, he had 1 successful cross in 5, which by no means good, is also not exactly poor. 0.9 accurate Corners to 0.6 inaccurate ones, 0.9 accurate FKs compared to 0.1 inaccurate ones- last 2 being pretty good! Also, note he played more on RW than Centrally, unlike most players you have listed.
And again the only reason I am comparing Mata with Martial is because both spent majority of their game time on flanks. And again,where did I say he was better than Martial? I'm pointing this just to show that our game from wide was ineffective.
This would be my last post regarding this, as clearly we have differing views, with you thinking Mata was key to our problems, whereas I'm saying he was playing as he was asked to
Well they did, and he played 834 minutes in those 11 starts(990 minutes)+2 sub appearances, so obviously it will get skewed.
Thats not the point right? The point was comparing both of their stats not saying who is better.
And also calling Mata play more on RW more isn't completely correct. Some of the games like City game for example Lingard and Mata both are exchange their position isn't included in stats.
But then again, De Bruyne and Eriksen played more as a winger than in central. After watching Payet in Euro, surely you will also realised he can still deliver something great as a LW.
Being flanks but different role. I already mentioned about this if you can't understand their role then it's just a waste of my time. Mata plays more as a Right Attacking Mid while Martial more as a winger or forward. Mata often moves more to central while Martial tends to stay wide and then cut inside. So playing wide makes Mata ineffective? I guess this makes him a bad option to have for our back up then as he only can play one position. Most attacking mid like Payet, Mkhitaryan, Hazard, Eriksen can play anywhere wide and central. Even Ozil still performing when he is used as a wide player in Euro in a few games.
When did I say Mata was key to our problem? Don't make things up!! He was our problem and so does the others.
I still can't see it different. 156 min is still considered to be huge for sub.
It did create a difference of 0.9 chances per 90 minutes. around an error of 30%
Notice how he got 11 league starts in half of season. I think that's still an enough number of chance that Jose gave to judge and make a decision if Mata is good enough for his plan or no.
Eriksen, Payet, KDB are pretty natural as wide players and before you say Mata played as a winger at Valencia, the physical attributes for Winger aren't/weren't that needed for Wingers. Its just PL that is this physically demanding that he isn't suited to be a winger.
And I won't make the thread longer by adding stats- All I'm saying is compare the stats of Mata with that of club. I mean you raised a valid point regarding interceptions- but if you do see, Utd's interceptions/ game were on the lower side compared to the league.
As far as Martial point is concerned- well I realise one played as Inside Forward, other was more of playmaker/AM . Again, shouldn't his defensive stats be better? Attacking stats will be mixed- lesser passes, lesser Pass completion, more dribbles, more times dispossessed, but what about defensive stats?
It's not all about mins in those games. Under Mourinho he was shafted on the wings in a new role. He was asked to do more defensive work and in the same time was stripped of his playmaking responsibilities that were given to Oscar.
This new role in a new system he surely needed some adaptation no?
When we bought him he again was shafted on the wings and didn't perform up to par. When we finally moved him in the center in the end of the season he scored or assisted in pretty much every game with most notable performances against Norwich, Newcastle and Villa (from memories). Mata's best position is #10, he was never used regularly in that best position since Jose took over Chelsea.
Firstly, I won't say Eriksen, Payet and Mahrez are physically strong. But Mata is just a double of weakness both physically weak and slow for pace.
As for Martial, why would someone play as an inside forward/wingers like Martial needs to have a better defensive stats than attacking mid like Mata?
Oh, I agree with the 1st point, there is no doubting it.
As far as 2nd point is concerned, he needs to have defensive stats similar to other other attacking midfielders, in this case Mata. Mata's stats are poor as you said. And Martial's defensive stats are worse (again, not saying Mata>Martial), so....
All I'm saying is compare the player with the team. He can't go against the manager to play some other style of football. Our interceptions as a team are among the lowest, which means we are more who don't pressure the opposition as others and so to blame Mata for that is harsh.
Okay, lets compare Mata with Ozil.
EPL stats.
Ozil - 6 goals, 19 assists
Mata - 6 goals, 5 assists
Mata does not belong in a team aiming to win the title. 4th or 5th place team, is about the right standard for Mata.
Firstly, you are trying to justify that a Mata (a player at the peak of his powers) is slightly better than an 18 year old kid (a kid who scored more goals in about 33% of the games Mata played in). And you are including FA Cup goals, against teams who were in lower divisions. The EPL is what counts.
Secondly, as you have stated, he was anonymous in most of our games. This is the a quality that you absolutely don't want in a top league player.
Mata is not the guy we can rely on to help us win the title.
How ironic that you point out that it is stupid to compare two separate things, then you proceed and do the same thing. Did you even read the statistics I was comparing? Sure he was asked to play in a possession style, but as the side's primary playmaker he was far inferior to the top level at creating chances which are the primary statistics anyone would hold a player in his role accountable to. Keeping possession when the other team lets you is not a statistic to be proud of or measure you side's top creative player with.
The only reason he scored more was because LVG cared less about his defensive responsibilities and let him roam, which was stupid in my opinion as he had to play a extra midfielder to cover that flank. I included the defensive total score only to show people how much worse he was at his role compared to other players who either create more to make up for their defensive weakness or can create + defend better. Forget the statistics and if you just watch, you see how easily he gets brushed off defensively. Yet he's no David Silva on offense. Mediocre player as a result.
When did I say "stupid" I said that's one way, and I am giving you another way. You have to even see our style of playing before you compare all those stats, which I did in that post and in the subsequent posts
What about winning possession and closing down or put a pressure on opponent? Im sure you did watch Martial put a lot of pressure on their opponent? What about Mata? Did he close down Fabregas when he passed the ball to Costa at that time?
Griezmann? Ronaldo? Messi? Bale? Neymar? If Mata can do a job like what they did as an experience player then i have no complain for his defensive work. At least he shows he can do something for the team. But can he?
Just because Martial played on the left and Mata on the right But he's been playing as a midfielder too in 4231 and 433 formation while Martial also played as a striker too. So how come a player in a category of forward has to have similar clearance and intercept with player in a category of midfield? What kind of logic is that?
And also if Mata is able to do what Martial can do I don't mind him having the same defensive work as Martial. But can he? This is what I have been telling you before. If you can't see the difference what Martial does with what Mata does then you are just wasting my time which is true it's a waste of time.
can't dribble, can't beat players, can't make a run, doesnt offer pace, doesnt offer physical attribute, not enough assists, not enough goals, not being useful for his high, no long shot, no aggression, no high work rate, cant lead a team and support youngster as an experience player. And then add them with poor defensive work and not versatile enough. How many weakness do you even want for a player?
Edit: I forgot to add another weakness "not versatile enough".
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Martial had 0.3 interceptions per 90 minutes when playing at LW! But that's not the point. I'm saying for past few posts- compare it to the team! If the team as a whole has lesser interceptions and more clearances, it means that those are the instructions given by the manager. All 11 players can't do it wrong!
And the only reason I have bought Martial into the argument is to show that this is how we were instructed to play! Lines that have been written for past 3-4 posts and earlier by other posters
And in the Chelsea goal, Depay gave the ball cheaply, Schneiderlin was out of position, Blind was slow to react, but you blame Mata!
Can't dribble- but atleast passes which I feel is the better option, doesn't lose the ball statistically atleast,
3rd most goals iirc for us. which is perfectly where an attacking mid for a team is placed in a side's goal scoring charts
When did I say he was good last season? His stats goal scoring and assists were good at Chelsea. He has played for some hopeless managers and still his goal scoring ratio for us is .25. He has 16 assists in his 2.5 years with us as well which is .15. A goal or assist as 0.4 per appearance. (He had 27 assists for chelsea in PL alone in his 2.5 seasons there)
His work rate is high, I disagree there. defensive contribution is what is expected- clear instead of hold and build up
If he isn't versatile then he fits into Mou's bill as he prefers specialists over versatile players
this thread is a clusterfeck of boffins and trainspotters
I think we have to agree with this guy. We gotta stop this. The argument is getting too biased and madness.
Genuinely don't mean this in a harsh way but you can't really complain about people being biased given you have by a fair distance the most posts in this thread. You're a good poster but I think it's fair to say you're biased against Mata more than most.
With you leading the way with your bias against Mata.
I was just replying the poster since at the start we were comparing Ozil, Eriksen, Payet, De Bruyne with Mata and he already agree with my point. And then it stretched out to Mata and Martial. Comparing what Mata offered and Martial offered last season is biased IMO. Undebatable, I don't know why we need to have debate on this and it will look biased if we debate this. I should have just ignore him when he talked about Martial.
Me leading to it? I wasn't the one who start comparing Mata to Martial mate. Just because I don't rate Mata as high as you doesn't mean you can talk crap about me mate.
I honestly don't know why he couldn't be a squad player if he wants to. I've applied the logic to a lot of players from the last two seasons that their place in the system dictated how they played as a player. I think he can make a useful contribution from the bench of in a rotational environment. It is just up to Jose and how he feels. Won't lose sleep over it if he does leave though, I won't blame him if he wants regular first team football.
This has been discussed before in this thread. Mata requires much tweak to the system. Mata is not a driving force in the team (He is more of final ball specialist and finisher), so not someone you look for inspiration in case the team doesn't click. He is not fast to be fox in the box type nor physical strong to use as a wall. Mata is defensive weak (not that he doesn't work hard), so there is better player if you need to protect the lead. With all that in mind, Mata is more a rotation option, which is better to go to younger players and lower wage.
For people who keep arguing for Mata about #10: Mourinho #10 is not the traditional type. Mourinho asked more from his #10 (and other positions too) than just the generalized cliche of work hard, track back... Mourinho tactic/ formation changes throughout the phase of the game, throughout the area of play than a rigid uniform 4231 433. Watch the game above and the highlight tactical use of Di Maria. Di Maria is an right winger in attack, but was required to be right wing back in phases where Barcelona pinned Real Madrid down. Ironically Di Maria played huge role in the goal attacking from the left side!
Ozil pressed Busquet if the play is near the midline, but required to do a defensive job pretty much like a traditional holding midfield if Real Madrid being pinned back. It's not simply dropping deep for Ozil. He needed to show intensity and tactically defensive quality, as Barcelona means business in the area Ozil watched over. Someone as defensive nous and high workrate like Park, being used primely to plug to midfield hole got overrun in that CL final. I have my doubt with Mata defending this area against Xavi, Messi Iniesta,... who all love to drift into this area.
Use LVG excuse as much as one can, LVG played Mata a lot and his bad management while hindered Mata's ability some ways, his possession football still favored Mata than Mourinho's. Mourinho likely plays counter attack, and rock solid defense shape is the corner stone of his philosophy. Mourinho already made statement in his press conference how he wants to play: vertical pass. You don't vertical pass when the opponent camp in the box and there is no space behind for your players to run to.
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Yes. There is no point. At the end our biases will come in the argument as they have in mine and yours.
Yes. In the end it all comes down to what you bias your opinion on.
Good read especially the first paragraph and last paragraph is the main part and the conclusion. Rather than argue and make a biased discussion on this thread, may be people can just read this instead. It sums up everything. Not hard to understand this post.
Hearing that Mata is staying. Anyone else heard the same?
I fecking hope so. I think he still has a lot to offer. We need move players like Fellaini, Young and Rojo before we try and think about the likes of Mata and Depay.
I still don't think he's staying. Probably trying to sell him to Juventus or put him in a Pogba deal.
Yep and Mourinho will know that. We all know that Jose sold Mata to us but like you say, he has players higher up the list than Mata when it comes to outgoings.
I have heard that Mata is staying and has been training really well. Him and Mourinho getting on well and he will be the no.10 when Micky T isn't available and for Europa League or Cup games.
Rooney has more to be worried about in my opinion.
He's so out that Wigan keeper didn't noticed him on the pitch and ended up passing the ball in his area
He'll be gone if someone pays up. Useful for Europa otherwise.
I can't see us selling him for £20m to Everton. The rumour is we are looking for above £25m. If the right price comes, he's gone. He's not going to be in Jose starting eleven and £26 or more sounds right to cover Mkhitaryan's fee.
Considering that Jose is trying to disconstruct all the so-called myths about him I doubt Mata will leave this summer as it gives the impression that he dislikes the player so much that whenever he sees the player he gets rid of him without even giving him a chance
This is so true.
People are making it seems as if Mou dislikes him for some reasons and wouldn't give him the chance nor try him with a different set of players. I'm also expecting Mata to stay with us. People and the media are just speculating this based on what they saw previously from their time at Chelsea and just assuming things.
What's with the thread title?! I thought he's been sold already!