The United fans drooling over Jose, tut tut. They really should have known better.
Jose Mourinho Sack Watch | Sacked per 19-04
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The United fans drooling over Jose, tut tut. They really should have known better.
Well, maybe now especially with Koeman gone. But the 2010 team was well managed by Van Marwijk. There were the odd stories here and there but overall they acted like pro's.
Imo that approach had died down with the current players prices and FFP. No club even those oil bastards would afford that.
He should try the national teams I think. His defensive mindset and under siege mentality may work there.
What is it with Ollie Holt and his hate for Jose? He’s wrote another attacking piece today and has been doing so for years?
The headline today with something like ‘The dinosaur in a designer coat’I mean its so obviously a personal hatred I don’t know how he gets away with it.
I see it different from you.
I see it as the only person really on TV or in the media calling it for what it is.
People still not sticking the boot into him.....keep hearing he's serial winner so must be the players. He's been done for years
Utd fans have some weird obession with Jose. There was so much pressure to get him hired even when Bobby Charlton and Ferguson all knew it would be a bad appointment for the club.
Hiring Jose when Fergie stepped down was the only time the appointment would have worked. He would have been more humble about the appointment and we wouldn’t have needed him to save us.
When he came in we were a shit show and at his mercy to fix stuff, while completely disagreeing with his approach to fixing stuff.
I don't think so. You may get lucky in his second season and win a PL title, but he will still become toxic in his 3rd year and leave a mess for the club when he's inevitably sacked.
The core of the team could have handled him back then, they were winners and would have put up with his shit. He doesn’t work well with anyone that is mentally weak, in his opinion of course
I think to be fair a lot of that was down to it feeling like a straight choice between him and Moyes in 2013
Apparently popularising a formation in a new country having just moved to it is irrelevant as he didn't invent the formation. That's your only rebuttal.
Also it's hilarious that you don't actually know the history of your own club. SAF didn't win a single title with 4-4-2 post-Mourinho. He won titles subsequently by tweaking his approach to incorporate elements of what Mourinho did. Again, if that isn't innovation on Mourinho's part then I don't know what is - obviously SAF could have used 4-3-3 at any point pre-2007 but he only did so once Mourinho proved it to be a workable formation in England.
We won 2006-07 playing 4-4-2/4-4-1-1. Also we didn't play 4-3-3 all the time, it was always the mix. We still played with 2 wingers and 2 strikers in 2007-08, with Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Nani/Giggs playing many games.
We also played 4-4-1-1/4-4-2 in 2010-11 win, with Rooney playing alongside Berbatov and then alongside Hernandez. Nani and Valencia were wingers, Valencia was injured so Giggs/Park played as wingers. Scholes was also close to retirement, he didn't start regularly. It was Fletcher and Carrick who started most games, with Anderson and Scholes rotating.
Wasn't 06/07 the Giggs / Rooney / CR7 front 3, or am I totally misremembering? It's definitely true that Giggs would drop deeper at times than Ronaldo to create something more closely resembling 4-4-2, but I always thought of that side as a 4-3-3 team. I know as well that the 07/08 team would line up in a 4-4-2 at times, but effectively it was more 4-3-3 with Rooney dropping into midfield and CR7 staying high in the inside left channel.
I am happy to be corrected as you'd surely know better than me, but I suppose my broader point is that I don't think SAF won a league post-Mourinho using exclusively 4-4-2, which had generally been the template to that point. Personally, I think that getting the greatest-ever manager who was a fixture of the league for 15+ years by then to adjust his tactics surely constitutes innovation by any reasonable standard.
It’s looking like they’ll be 3 points off top 4 after this evening with a good goal difference and in a cup final. I don’t fancy them against Man City but imagine if they win a cup and get CL and we just get CL after our respective seasons. I’d be very disappointed.
What a ridiculous statement to make on a United forum. Some of the opposition fans come across as unbelievably arrogant.
Have you seen what the fella I was replying to said??
I'll concede my statement was overly black-and-white but I think the point stands - SAF successfully adapted to Mourinho's more continental game by adjusting his tactics and approach. I'm obviously not saying the latter was a better manager, I'm just arguing that Mourinho did more to move the English game past the dogmatic and omnipresent 4-4-2 than just about anyone.
3 points behind Chelsea (and easier fixtures till the end than rivals I think) in PL and in League cup final, so it's not all over for Jose and Spurs this season.
They still have to play United and travel to Leicester, Leeds and Everton so not sure where the easier narrative comes from.
You've got City, Arsenal and Leicester plus West Ham away as well, think that's still tougher than Leeds And Everton.
Everton away is harder than Arsenal at home.
If Spurs fluke the cup win and squeeze in top 4 where does that leave their season in regards to achievements? Best season in 10 years? 20 years? Both big ifs but definitely not outside the realms of possibility.
They weren't that good tonight. Barely in it first 20 minutes but we just have no belief going a goal down (picked up 1 point all season
) and without Grealish.Can see them dropping points v likes of Everton and Man. United in coming weeks and Chelsea in the form they're in are certs to get another 5-6 wins.
Did not expect them to beat Villa with their morale low after the other night, so fair play. It's not a bad fixture list left but I still expect Chelsea, Leicester and us to finish above them.
Be interesting to see what the bare minimum for another Jose season is with Spurs. A cup win but finish out of the top 4? Is that good enough?
Be interesting to see what the bare minimum for another Jose season is with Spurs. A cup win but finish out of the top 4? Is that good enough?
All better now, is it?
Those few seasons under Poch (2017-18-19) would still be bigger achievements imo, as they won much more points in first two and played ij CL final in 2019). Winning the League cup would be their first trophy since 2008 but that team under Pochettino had more quality than this one.
I guess its the case of 'Is football about winning trophies?'. If you fall on the yes side of things and Spurs do win the League Cup you would say it is their best season in a long time. Add a CL qualification, again a big 'if', but that would be a very good season for them. Given as you said they have not won a trophy since 2008.
I agree Pochettino's side had better quality, but it's that whole stick used to beat Pochettino with, in that he didnt actually win anything.
Agreed, United and Leicester really should secure top 4 at this point, would be a bit of collapse not to. 4th spot still up for grabs but Chelsea obviously in the box seat and on a nice run of results since Tuchel came in.
If Chelsea do fall out I wouldn't feel that confident it would be Spurs to take their place either. Not saying they can't but I'm finding it quite hard to split them, Liverpool and West Ham at the moment as to who I think would finish higher out of just those 3. Could be any of them.
If you're going to make an effort to write a post, at least know what you're talking about. We played 4-4-2 in the 2010-11 and 2012-13 aeasons.
Even if we hadn't, continuing using an existing formation (which is what Mourinho did at Chelsea) isn't an innovation. I'm not talking dismissing contributions being irrelavant so no idea why you've decided to make up another lie there. I simply challenged you to provide me with a single instance of Mourinho innovating anything.
You still haven't.
If Chelsea fall out then whats the hype with Tuchel? His football with Chelsea really isn't anything to write home about.
Well, therein lies the rub. You seem to have an extremely narrow definition of the word "innovation", apparently limited to inventing formations. I genuinely don't understand how moving an entire country away from the orthodoxy of 4-4-2 could possibly not be considered innovative, but it is technically correct that Mourinho didn't invent 4-3-3.
Probably not innovative because he was already playing 443. He just did what he normally does. He didnt innovate. The fact the rest of the league decided to copy (like we usually do over here when someone brings something from abroad) doesnt make it innovation.
It would be different if he was in the PL playing 442 and then decided to bring 443 in.
He used mostly 4-3-1-2 at Porto, but I guess I just disagree with the notion that moving abroad to a completely different competition and fundamentally altering that league's approach to football isn't innovative regardless of what he'd been doing before. Also surely it's more innovative to stick to your principles developed elsewhere instead of conforming to the defaults of a new league?
Because I dont see it as altering the league. He simply did what he does. Again if he was in the PL doing what the PL does and then made the change I would see it differently.
Its like me going to my home native village and installing Wifi and calling myself an innovator
I suppose we just fundamentally disagree then because I would say delivering internet access to a village for the first time would definitely be innovative.
Just one (earnest) question - would you consider Conte to be an innovator? He more or less went back to his roots in switching to 3-4-3 and is more or less responsible for the advent of 3 man defenses at the highest levels. I'd put him and 2004 Mourinho in the same bracket, personally.
I always want my team to win trophies but winning one doesn't have to indicate you're moving into right direction. In 2014-2019 period we won Europa, FA cup, League cup, Arsenal won like 3-4 fa cups but neither of those teams were better than Pochettino's Spurs. In fact we were horrible, with all that money spent we only managed top 4 twice, and in those 2 seasons under LvG most of the other top teams were in some kind of transition.
Don't mean to be pedantic, but Mazzarri at Napoli was playing 343 before Conte,
Just saying...
Oh I am fully aware! This is why I think it's silly to limit the label of "innovation" to those who invent a formation. For me, succeeding with a system to the point where it becomes popularised is just as worthy of the label.
Popularising something in the PL thats popular in Europe doesnt require innovation unless you are from the PL
So Pep isn't innovative?
Indeed, in which case it mainly stems down to Cruyff, as most modern chains of footballing thoughts are in essence modernized versions of his theories, which he in turn took from Michels!
Conte certainly didn't 'copy' Mazzarri, but he definitely took elements of that Napoli side and added it to his own system.
Not sure where Jose fits into this all though, the only innovation I have seen Jose concoct is that of Cambiasso's role at Inter.
But I apologise as I have jumped in midway without reading back, so sorry...as you were!
Pep doesnt just bring what did in Europe to the PL
If you actually watch City this season you will see how innovative Pep is once he adjusted to PL and adjusted his tactical setups and approach to be more PL friendly. He also innovated heavily at Bayern. Bit of an odd comment
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