Jose Mourinho Sack Watch | Sacked per 19-04

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Pep doesnt just bring what did in Europe to the PL
If you actually watch City this season you will see how innovative Pep is once he adjusted to PL and adjusted his tactical setups and approach to be more PL friendly. He also innovated heavily at Bayern. Bit of an odd comment

I mean, of course Pep is innovative, he's revolutionised the way most clubs think about the sport in terms of player rotations, positional play, the use of half-spaces, etc. He didn't invent a formation though.

Mourinho did much the same thing in 2004 through his use of the 4-3-3. I don't understand how you are splitting hairs between Pep adjusting his system upon arriving in the PL and watching his influence spread through the league and Mourinho doing the same thing. It's arguably more impressive that Mourinho managed it given he was moving from Porto and had less experience than Pep, who'd been managing top clubs for a decade or so prior to going to City.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Indeed, in which case it mainly stems down to Cruyff, as most modern chains of footballing thoughts are in essence modernized versions of his theories, which he in turn took from Michels!

Conte certainly didn't 'copy' Mazzarri, but he definitely took elements of that Napoli side and added it to his own system.

Not sure where Jose fits into this all though, the only innovation I have seen Jose concoct is that of Cambiasso's role at Inter.

But I apologise as I have jumped in midway without reading back, so sorry...as you were!

No need to apologise mate!

 

[Cassidy]

I mean, of course Pep is innovative, he's revolutionised the way most clubs think about the sport in terms of player rotations, positional play, the use of half-spaces, etc. He didn't invent a formation though.

Mourinho did much the same thing in 2004 through his use of the 4-3-3. I don't understand how you are splitting hairs between Pep adjusting his system upon arriving in the PL and watching his influence spread through the league and Mourinho doing the same thing. It's arguably more impressive that Mourinho managed it given he was moving from Porto and had less experience than Pep, who'd been managing top clubs for a decade or so prior to going to City.

Pep has doesnt just play formations thats why. Peps innovation is in how his team plays irrespective of the formation. Especially since he plays many, and he is always evolving that

Im not splitting hairs. Im saying I dont believe taking a formation (433) from Europe is innovation.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Pep has doesnt just play formations thats why. Peps innovation is in how his team plays irrespective of the formation. Especially since he plays many.

Im not splitting hairs. Im saying I dont believe taking a formation (433) from Europe is innovation.

Wait so you think the only thing Mourinho did in his first spell at Chelsea was put everyone in a different formation and send them out to do as they pleased? Why are you giving Pep credit for changing the way City played and not giving it to Mourinho?

 

[Cassidy]

Wait so you think the only thing Mourinho did in his first spell at Chelsea was put everyone in a different formation and send them out to do as they pleased? Why are you giving Pep credit for changing the way City played and not giving it to Mourinho?

Im not giving Pep credit for changing the way City played. Maybe you should read. Pep innovation is more in the way he plays. City don’t play how Barca do, or Bayern. Bayern didnt play how Barca did either

Also no I do not (about Jose) But you specifically mentioned bringing the 433 to the PL which is what I am discussing

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Im not giving Pep credit for changing the way City played. Maybe you should read

Also no I do not (about Jose) But you specially mentioned bringing the 433 to the PL which is what I am discussing

Changing the way City play is surely the most tangible evidence of Pep's system working, no? Obviously he's developed it over many years and merits huge credit which I fully agree with. I just don't really get why he gets plaudits and Mourinho doesn't.

Re: the 4-3-3 thing, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see why a manager who's already in the PL switching to 4-3-3 gets more credit in your eyes than a manager moving to the PL for the first time and playing 4-3-3. I didn't mean to imply that this was Mourinho's sole innovation, just the most obvious example (at least in my eyes).

 

[Cassidy]

Changing the way City play is surely the most tangible evidence of Pep's system working, no? Obviously he's developed it over many years and merits huge credit which I fully agree with. I just don't really get why he gets plaudits and Mourinho doesn't.

Re: the 4-3-3 thing, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see why a manager who's already in the PL switching to 4-3-3 gets more credit in your eyes than a manager moving to the PL for the first time and playing 4-3-3. I didn't mean to imply that this was Mourinho's sole innovation, just the most obvious example (at least in my eyes).

Pep doesnt have a set system.

On the 433 thing. Because Jose was already very familiar with the 433, yes I know he played 4312 at Porto mainly (which is a variation of 433) A PL manager who had not played it before, then decided to after seeing it elsewhere is taking a risk and doing something they are not familiar with

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Pep doesnt have a set system.

That's true! Apologies for the ambiguity, I was speaking more holistically about his process, which is the word I probably should have used.

On the 433 thing. Because Jose was already very familiar with the 433, yes I know he played 4312 at Porto mainly (which is a variation of 433) A PL manager who had not played it before, then decided to after seeing it elsewhere is taking a risk and doing something they are not familiar with

I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree here then mate. Personally I'm more impressed by a manager rocking up with the determination to make the league adjust to his methods rather than vice versa and I'd consider that to be genuine innovation, especially when the impact is as far-reaching as that of first-stint Mourinho (and to a lesser extent Conte).

 

[Cassidy]

That's true! Apologies for the ambiguity, I was speaking more holistically about his process, which is the word I probably should have used.



I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree here then mate. Personally I'm more impressed by a manager rocking up with the determination to make the league adjust to his methods rather than vice versa and I'd consider that to be genuine innovation, especially when the impact is as far-reaching as that of first-stint Mourinho (and to a lesser extent Conte).

It is impressive and brave. But I dont call it innovative. Which I reserve for original or creative thinking

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

It is impressive and brave. But I dont call it innovative. Which I reserve for original or creative thinking

Fair enough. Appreciate the discussion mate!

 

[Chipper]

If Chelsea fall out then whats the hype with Tuchel? His football with Chelsea really isn't anything to write home about.

The hype would certainly die down, he may even get the boot knowing how ruthless Abramovich can be although I'd doubt it. I think that would be harsh as when he took over top 4 looked like an outside possibility to me at least, but then I'm not a successful businessman and owner of a football club who has good track record of making the right decision.

Haven't actually watched too much of them since he came but it's obvious they're not exactly lighting up the goalscoring charts and I've seen plenty of comments with people saying they're a bit boring. Effective progress in more than one competition so far.

 

[Grinner]

I always thought that JM inherited a pretty strong squad at Chelsea and then was able to go and buy the absolute best players available to fill the positions that were weaker.

Maybe I'm misremembering though.

 

[kaiser1]

I always thought that JM inherited a pretty strong squad at Chelsea and then was able to go and buy the absolute best players available to fill the positions that were weaker.

Maybe I'm misremembering though.

You are right
In Mourinho first spell at Chelsea
Right Back had Geremi, Glen Johnson and Mechiot, Added Paolo fereira, Khalid Bhoularouz and Belleti

left back Had
Babayaro Wayne Bridge , He added DelHorno, Ashley Cole.

In central defence had Huth, Terry and Gallas and added Carvalho, Alex, Rajkovic, Jarosik

midfield
had Makelele, Lampard, Scott Parker, Veron. added Essien, Ballack, Mikel, Tiago, Nuno Morais, Lassana, Maniche, Sidwell

At wings and Attacking midfield,
had Joe Cole Duff, Added Malouda Robben, SWP

Strikers
Had Gudjonsen Forsell Crespo added Kezman, Ben-Sahar, Shevchenko Drogba DiSanto Pizzaro

 

[Cassidy]

I always thought that JM inherited a pretty strong squad at Chelsea and then was able to go and buy the absolute best players available to fill the positions that were weaker.

Maybe I'm misremembering though.

Ranieri had them second in the league and was sacked for losing the UCL semi final. They had a very strong squad

 

[Morty_]

If they win the league cup, and/or get top 4th, im sure they will stick with him for at least another season.

Both are not likely, but at least one of them isn't all that unlikely.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Although Pep is seen as a footballing idealist, he's actually very, very pragmatic.

By his own words, he got the idea of putting the FB in DM from the German league because it was in use there to prevent counter-attacks.

His City aren't a possession side, they're not a counter-attacking side, yet, their ability to transition on counter is flawless as is their ability to dominate possession, and so they can utilise both with great effect. He's picked up nuances from managing in Spain, Germany and now England, and it's all a combination of those things. More verticality, still horizontality when required to shift the opposition, great transitions and switch play.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Well, therein lies the rub. You seem to have an extremely narrow definition of the word "innovation", apparently limited to inventing formations. I genuinely don't understand how moving an entire country away from the orthodoxy of 4-4-2 could possibly not be considered innovative, but it is technically correct that Mourinho didn't invent 4-3-3.

So we have established that you:

1-Made up a lie that Mourinho invented 'with the ball training', and I corrected that lie by pointed out that Sir Alex Ferguson did it decades before Mourinho ever did.

2-You sidestepped that and decided to make up another lie that United never played 4-4-2 again after Mourinho came in. I again pointed out you have no idea what you're talking about, after which you had nothing to say and therefore changed the topic again

3-You lied about Mourinho "innovating" 4-3-3 and when I pointed out that Mourinho played no part whatsoever in the innovation of 4-3-3, your latest bizzare response is to double down on your claim that Mourinho "innovated" 4-4-3 by essentially saying 'its true that Jose didn't invent the formation. And only copied it and used what was already used before him. But he still innovated it, you see?"

I'll give you another chance to do what you haven't been able to do in any of your posts so far. What exactly did Mourinho "innovate"?

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

So we have established that you:

1-Made up a lie that Mourinho invented 'with the ball training', and I corrected that lie by pointed out that Sir Alex Ferguson did it decades before Mourinho ever did.

2-You sidestepped that and decided to make up another lie that United never played 4-4-2 again after Mourinho came in. I again pointed out you have no idea what you're talking about, after which you had nothing to say and therefore changed the topic again

3-You lied about Mourinho "innovating" 4-3-3 and when I pointed out that Mourinho played no part whatsoever in the innovation of 4-3-3, your latest bizzare response is to double down on your claim that Mourinho "innovated" 4-4-3 by essentially saying 'its true that Jose didn't invent the formation. And only copied it and used what was already used before him. But he still innovated it, you see?"

I'll give you another chance to do what you haven't been able to do in any of your posts so far. What exactly did Mourinho "innovate"?

The adults have already managed to have a lovely and civilised discussion about this, it's surely past your bedtime. Enjoy the ignore list!

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

 

[Samid]

 

[Judas]

Should do enough to get them some kind of European football next season.

 

[always_hoping]

That photo

 

[Feed Me]

Spurs conceded late to relinquish a lead in the league? I am shocked.

 

[Chairman Steve]

Hasnt his record at St James Park always been awful? It’s one of those weird stats thats true that you wouldn’t think was if someone told it to you.

 

[africanspur]

Out out out please.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

That photo

I said in the gameweek thread I've never seen a Jose side look so shaky when trying to hold a lead. I don't particularly like their defence as a unit but Jose has made the whole side worse than the sum of its parts, which never used to happen.

 

[duffer]

I hate XG.

 

[Traub]

What does this mean

 

[prateik]

KJAS

 

[Damien]

https://www.football365.com/news/pr...mpton-tottenham-points-lost-winning-positions

15 points dropped from winning positions now. Only team worse is Southampton with 18.

 

[GifLord]

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Hasnt his record at St James Park always been awful? It’s one of those weird stats thats true that you wouldn’t think was if someone told it to you.

Yeah, even when he was at his peak under that great Chelsea side I don't think he did well there.

Remember Chelsea getting knocked out the FA Cup there one year.

It's odd.

 

[Sylar]

SpecialOnce

 

[Damien]

Hasnt his record at St James Park always been awful? It’s one of those weird stats thats true that you wouldn’t think was if someone told it to you.

Yep. 3 wins in 12 (2 of them in the League Cup), 5 defeats.

 

[Dumbstar]

Wow, he really does slaughter his players. Other managers will take the blame for not putting the right pieces in place for the match but not him. It's always the players.

 

[Shane88]

I hate XG.

It's the biggest load of wank.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

What does he have against 2 goal leads? I think he'd like them if he gave them a try.

 

[always_hoping]

Hasnt his record at St James Park always been awful? It’s one of those weird stats thats true that you wouldn’t think was if someone told it to you.

1 win in 8 and that 1 win was last season.

 

[africanspur]

What does he have against 2 goal leads? I think he'd like them if he gave them a try.

You could ask the same question about attacking patterns of play. Or really any pattern of play?

Anything would be good.

The AVB and Sherwood teams were utter shite but at least I kind of understood what patterns they were trying to implement. Apart from a period of time last season when we actually looked reasonably good, that has been sorely missing in his current tenure.