Jose Mourinho Sack Watch | Sacked per 19-04

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Ladron de redcafe said:
What on earth are you saying?
You said Mourinho is innovative. I asked you to show me how so. You bring up formations that he didn't invent and training methods that were used decades before he came in.

You respond by putting a laughing emoji and crying about me engaging in "revisionist history" without being able to respond with my very simple repost. And therefore resorted to a meltdown.

Do you want to try again? Show me how Mourinho invented "training with the ball" when Sir Alex Ferguson was doing that since the 80s?
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You seem to think the only way to be innovative is to actually invent a formation. This is preposterous.

Like it or not, Mourinho did more to move the English game away from 4-4-2 than just about anyone. Who cares if he didn't invent a formation; that's genuine innovation.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
You seem to think the only way to be innovative is to actually invent a formation. This is preposterous.

Like it or not, Mourinho did more to move the English game away from 4-4-2 than just about anyone. Who cares if he didn't invent a formation; that's genuine innovation.
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Repeating yourself like a parrot doesn't make your points any less incorrect.
I don't care about inventing formations, so I'm not sure why you're bothering even suggesting that this is the issue at hand.

You talked in depth about Mourinho's "innovation" and made up several frivolous points including a ridiculous assertion that Mourinho brought "training with a ball" training methods. I called you out on making it up and told you that Ferguson was doing it more than a decade before Mourinho did.

What does moving away from 4-4-2 mean? United and Ferguson, who won before Mourinho came and after he left, played 4-4-2 and dominated English football.

You've failed to give me a single instance of Mourinho "innovating" anything and resorted to shifting goal posts and responding to arguments that were never made.
 
Judas said:
Because you'd still have teams like City just paying money under the table.
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Fair enough, and good point, if we're talking exclusively about wages. I still think maybe they can have a cap on total spending.

But then again, maybe your point applies there too, with teams like City continuing the transfer fee under the table.
 
The third season is when it all goes wrong, so I'm fully expecting Spurs to be relegated by Christmas.
 
Why so many people consider Mourinho's transition to international football, while his biggest downfalls recently where creating toxic environment and inability to improve or even maintain sufficient level of fitness of his players.

That is probably two of the most important things for national teams managers - to keep players fit and happy and Jose was a total disaster in those areas.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
What do people think about a salary cap? As with major American sports?

Why don't they implement that or consider the possibility of doing so?,
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What would be the goal? American sports are in a different environment, with closed singular leagues.
 
JPRouve said:
What would be the goal? American sports are in a different environment, with closed singular leagues.
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To try to close the gap between the elite sides and the smaller ones by stopping the bigger sides from spending beyond a certain threshold.

If some teams can bypass it by paying players under the table, then I understand that it can never work.

I just wonder whether football would look different if the PSGs, Barcelonas, Madrids, Citys, and Uniteds couldn't spend more than 40 million on a player. In those cases, Mbappé might not necessarily go to PSG if PSG aren't allowed to spend more than any of the rest of the teams (just an example).
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
To try to close the gap between the elite sides and the smaller ones by stopping the bigger sides from spending beyond a certain threshold.

If some teams can bypass it by paying players under the table, then I understand that it can never work.

I just wonder whether football would look different if the PSGs, Barcelonas, Madrids, Citys, and Uniteds couldn't spend more than 40 million on a player. In those cases, Mbappé might not necessarily go to PSG if PSG aren't allowed to spend more than any of the rest of the teams (just an example).
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It would only make things more in favour of big Clubs. Smaller clubs would lose out on big transfer fees players would not be signing longer contracts ,Clubs capable of paying higher wages like traditional big Clubs with huge revenues would be the main beneficiaries. It
would actually have the complete opposite effect from what you are thinking.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
What do people think about a salary cap? As with major American sports?

Why don't they implement that or consider the possibility of doing so?,
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Because it levels the playing field more than the traditional big clubs would want.

There are legitimate concerns but complaints from people who think everything was cool before 2004, aren't altruistic imo
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
To try to close the gap between the elite sides and the smaller ones by stopping the bigger sides from spending beyond a certain threshold.

If some teams can bypass it by paying players under the table, then I understand that it can never work.

I just wonder whether football would look different if the PSGs, Barcelonas, Madrids, Citys, and Uniteds couldn't spend more than 40 million on a player. In those cases, Mbappé might not necessarily go to PSG if PSG aren't allowed to spend more than any of the rest of the teams (just an example).
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How do you create a salary cap that concerns teams that are in different leagues and different economies? What is your point of reference, a Ligue 1 club with a 15k stadium capacity or Barcelona and their 100k stadium capacity? The PL and its TV deal or Liga Sagres and its TV deal?

Also if you put a salary cap that is inferior to current wage bills, then you are taking money away from top players and putting in owners pockets because smaller clubs can't afford it anyway, they are not going to sign top players, they can't pay their wages nor their transfer fees.
 
Must be missing something here, how is "training with a ball", for a game which consists solely of kicking a ball considered innovative ?
 
Wittmann45 said:
He probably never should have left Inter in retrospect, but it is obviously difficult to turn down Real Madrid.
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Imo another reason was he knew that Moratti would not let him spend as he wish like before the treble. Moratti had spent a lot on Inter prior to the treble and everyone knew that his dream was seeing Inter winning the CL. After the CL title it was understood that no more money would be invested.
 
Strelok said:
Imo another reason was he knew that Moratti would not let him spend as he wish like before the treble. Moratti had spent a lot on Inter prior to the treble and everyone knew that his dream was seeing Inter winning the CL. After the CL title it was understood that no more money would be invested.
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Moratti had the right idea, he knew the score with Mou, quick trophies and provide the resources to achieve it, none of this delusional rubbish that he was going to change his ways and settle down to a project (the ironic thing is I think he fools himself with that as much as the owners/boards that employ him).

Part of the reason Mou has lost it so spectacularly is the tactical element but also the fact he's trying to do something that doesn't suit him, he should have just embraced what he is and kept capitalising on that strengths, they'd have always been a club around that really really want that instant success.
 
Strelok said:
Imo another reason was he knew that Moratti would not let him spend as he wish like before the treble. Moratti had spent a lot on Inter prior to the treble and everyone knew that his dream was seeing Inter winning the CL. After the CL title it was understood that no more money would be invested.
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They would have imploded the next season anyway with or without him. Most of their key players were on the wrong side of 30. He squeezed every drop out of that Inter side.
 
Hoboman said:
Why so many people consider Mourinho's transition to international football, while his biggest downfalls recently where creating toxic environment and inability to improve or even maintain sufficient level of fitness of his players.

That is probably two of the most important things for national teams managers - to keep players fit and happy and Jose was a total disaster in those areas.
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You can't really create a toxic environment if you only have the players 60 days a year (i'm sure he'd give it a good go anyway). The fitness would be in major part out of his hands unless he selected somebody coming back from an injury and rushed him back. His "everyone is against us" mentality could work for international tournaments.
The biggest part of a good national coach is the selection and building a team that works together. He'd have no limitations, no budget, no negotiations, nobody to convince.
 
awop said:
You can't really create a toxic environment if you only have the players 60 days a year (i'm sure he'd give it a good go anyway). The fitness would be in major part out of his hands unless he selected somebody coming back from an injury and rushed him back. His "everyone is against us" mentality could work for international tournaments.
The biggest part of a good national coach is the selection and building a team that works together. He'd have no limitations, no budget, no negotiations, nobody to convince.
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It doesn’t make sense to me either though. He will still continue to have a passive appproach and outdated methods and will still be managing against national teams implementing those new ideas and giving him the same problems.

It’s not just his personality that has cause issues with his teams, it’s the fact that his ego hasn’t allowed him to learn and evolve with the times. He is still trying to win games the same way he did 15 years ago with much worse players.

I think he has been left behind.
 
Dancfc said:
Moratti had the right idea, he knew the score with Mou, quick trophies and provide the resources to achieve it, none of this delusional rubbish that he was going to change his ways and settle down to a project (the ironic thing is I think he fools himself with that as much as the owners/boards that employ him).

Part of the reason Mou has lost it so spectacularly is the tactical element but also the fact he's trying to do something that doesn't suit him, he should have just embraced what he is and kept capitalising on that strengths, they'd have always been a club around that really really want that instant success.
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Yeah, so he pushes already established teams over the edge as opposed to being a great long term team builder. But where do you think his first misstep in choosing the right job occurred? United?
 
awop said:
You can't really create a toxic environment if you only have the players 60 days a year (i'm sure he'd give it a good go anyway). The fitness would be in major part out of his hands unless he selected somebody coming back from an injury and rushed him back. His "everyone is against us" mentality could work for international tournaments.
The biggest part of a good national coach is the selection and building a team that works together. He'd have no limitations, no budget, no negotiations, nobody to convince.
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I don't follow international football that closely, but hasn't Low created a pretty toxic environment by freezing out Muller, Boateng and Hummels? He has seemed to have made a relatively difficult job with extremely high expectations even more difficult by freezing out those players. German fans on reddit seemed pretty relieved to hear that he was leaving the German team after the Euros. I could definitely see Jose taking over Portugal, freezing out Ronaldo and creating discord and division in the squad all for his own ego trip.
 
Tottenham is the opposite of the club that should ever appoint Jose.

He was made for Inter Milan when they were the only team who could win the league at the time, as Juventus were not even in Serie A. Im not sure Jose would fancy today's Serie A where Juventus are a force again. But in terms of a team that places no great emphasis on developing youth, love to spend money, and have a history of dour defensive tactics, then Inter would be the closest thing to a club that suits Jose's methods.
 
Wittmann45 said:
Yeah, so he pushes already established teams over the edge as opposed to being a great long term team builder. But where do you think his first misstep in choosing the right job occurred? United?
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Probably back with us as he did it with the main intention of settling down and doing something more medium/long term.

At the start he was all in on it and he even went as far as saying he preferred a good loss as opposed to a tumescent win (when we somehow lost at Goodison despite smashing them) but eventually he lost his nerve and just went back to his usual MO and while it did do what was desired this time round the quick fix wasn't what we signed up for.

I do genuinely believe the medium/long term thing is something he wants, he just doesn't have the ability and/or the nerve (to take the punches en route, especially if there's a way to get better immediate results) to pull it off.
 
I know people are saying this is all due to Mourinho, but I think these issues actually started to show themselves under Pochettino. Do people forget the absolute tumescent performances they had for his last season worth of games? There were quite a few players that looked like they couldn't be bothered.

I know they got to the Champions League final, but their league performances were dire. I think there were issues in that squad already from staleness and stagnation. It is like the squad suddenly became lazy in 18/19. In 17/18, they were the second-most effective pressing side and then fell to 12th in 18/19.

There are deep-rooted issues in that team from previous times (transfer failings etc.). I think only a mass clearout and a fresh start will get rid of that mentality; there is no point in building on it, to be honest. They can start by selling Kane to us.
 
I think it's more than just Jose. The players got Poch sacked. Then Jose wouldn't dance to their tune they are not trying enough.
Lloris presser at the end of the match says what he thinks of some of his teammates.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Repeating yourself like a parrot doesn't make your points any less incorrect.
I don't care about inventing formations, so I'm not sure why you're bothering even suggesting that this is the issue at hand.

You talked in depth about Mourinho's "innovation" and made up several frivolous points including a ridiculous assertion that Mourinho brought "training with a ball" training methods. I called you out on making it up and told you that Ferguson was doing it more than a decade before Mourinho did.

What does moving away from 4-4-2 mean? United and Ferguson, who won before Mourinho came and after he left, played 4-4-2 and dominated English football.

You've failed to give me a single instance of Mourinho "innovating" anything and resorted to shifting goal posts and responding to arguments that were never made.
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You're the one who brought up inventing formations, as your only rebuttal to his usage of the 4-3-3 was that he "didn't invent it". That's a ridiculous standard to have and I've correctly pointed out that this is just silly. Not sure why you've got your knickers in a twist about being called out.

You seem to not understand that innovation does not necessarily equate to being the first to do it. Making something that's not widely adopted popular is, in fact, a form of innovation.

Also you don't even know your own club's history; SAF moved to 4-3-3 in the late noughties - Ronaldo / Tevez / Rooney and/or Ronaldo / Berbatov / Rooney were all used in a front three. If Mourinho's tweaks can get even SAF to take notice and adjust, I don't know what better proof there is of genuine innovation.
 
Dancfc said:
Moratti had the right idea, he knew the score with Mou, quick trophies and provide the resources to achieve it, none of this delusional rubbish that he was going to change his ways and settle down to a project (the ironic thing is I think he fools himself with that as much as the owners/boards that employ him).

Part of the reason Mou has lost it so spectacularly is the tactical element but also the fact he's trying to do something that doesn't suit him, he should have just embraced what he is and kept capitalising on that strengths, they'd have always been a club around that really really want that instant success.
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I think the biggest reason might actually be that he just doesn't have the same level of enthusiasm. Even if you don't mean it to, it naturally impacts the level of effort you put into your job. Ever since Real Madrid, he just doesn't have that same eagerness.

I wonder if he trying to rediscover that level of excitement, but it might just not be there anymore.
 
To break away from the resident "couch warriors" that reside on this threat(I prefer bitter whiners, but anyway). He's gone. No longer at Manchester United. You're not five years old. Seriously. Some behave like he's burned their family alive, but they've never even met the guy, and likely never will.

On the note of Spurs and José, it was never going to be a good relationship. Spurs were in a spiral already while Poch was still there, having players falling out of their peaks, and there were already divisions in the squad. This is just becoming a rehash of the same scenario all over again.
As for José, he probably overblew his expectations on what could be achieved with this team.
Outside of Son, Kane and possibly Hojbjerg, the whole team is generally below par.
But at the same time, it does still seem like José needs more time away. He still doesn't look like he's enjoying football at all, and probably needs to find what made him successful in the first place.

Whether they sack him or not, Spurs are going back to mediocrity, no matter who they hire.
 
MattofManchester said:
To break away from the resident "couch warriors" that reside on this threat(I prefer bitter whiners, but anyway). He's gone. No longer at Manchester United. You're not five years old. Seriously. Some behave like he's burned their family alive, but they've never even met the guy, and likely never will.

On the note of Spurs and José, it was never going to be a good relationship. Spurs were in a spiral already while Poch was still there, having players falling out of their peaks, and there were already divisions in the squad. This is just becoming a rehash of the same scenario all over again.
As for José, he probably overblew his expectations on what could be achieved with this team.
Outside of Son, Kane and possibly Hojbjerg, the whole team is generally below par.
But at the same time, it does still seem like José needs more time away. He still doesn't look like he's enjoying football at all, and probably needs to find what made him successful in the first place.

Whether they sack him or not, Spurs are going back to mediocrity, no matter who they hire.
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You’re right he’s gone, he left us in the shit. I’m enjoying seeing the man fail, especially after all his fan boys were giving it large at the start of the season. It’s wonderful watching the melt down and all those people hiding back in their caves. United fans have every right to dislike the man, I don’t know why you’re so upset?
 
It's mad how so many people still back him and blame the players.

The form of Luke Shaw alone should be enough to totally discredit modern day Jose and his methods.
 
awop said:
You can't really create a toxic environment if you only have the players 60 days a year (i'm sure he'd give it a good go anyway).
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The atmosphere around the French national team during the 2010 WC was as toxic as it gets. I’m sure there are other examples as well.
 
MattofManchester said:
To break away from the resident "couch warriors" that reside on this threat(I prefer bitter whiners, but anyway). He's gone. No longer at Manchester United. You're not five years old. Seriously. Some behave like he's burned their family alive, but they've never even met the guy, and likely never will.

On the note of Spurs and José, it was never going to be a good relationship. Spurs were in a spiral already while Poch was still there, having players falling out of their peaks, and there were already divisions in the squad. This is just becoming a rehash of the same scenario all over again.
As for José, he probably overblew his expectations on what could be achieved with this team.
Outside of Son, Kane and possibly Hojbjerg, the whole team is generally below par.
But at the same time, it does still seem like José needs more time away. He still doesn't look like he's enjoying football at all, and probably needs to find what made him successful in the first place.

Whether they sack him or not, Spurs are going back to mediocrity, no matter who they hire.
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It's just schadenfreude and I feel it too. His smug and egotistical nature only works till he is successful. If not, he comes across as a narcissist and no one likes one. He shit on our club, blamed everyone and their dog, and then left the dressing room in absolute shambles. The players were so happy to see the back of him that we went on the most successful run ever for a debut manager at our club.

Nobody wants to see him fail because he has burned their families alive. His failure is proof that the bs he spouted here about the patch to success if just that - bs.
 
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