Jose Mourinho Sack Watch | Sacked per 19-04

[He'sRaldo]

Must be missing something here, how is "training with a ball", for a game which consists solely of kicking a ball considered innovative ?

Look up "Tactical Periodization". It wasn't created by Jose, but he popularized it with his success.

Now that it's so widely used, he doesn't really have anything special that separates him from other managers, making him pretty much a low level manager. Maybe (hopefully) the counter press will go the same way with Klopp.

 

[Reditus]

It's mad how so many people still back him and blame the players.

The form of Luke Shaw alone should be enough to totally discredit modern day Jose and his methods.

The relationship between Mourinho and Shaw was so bizarre

Does anyone remember when he claimed he had to talk him through a game on the touchline? For a player who probably had mental health issues after recovering from an horrific leg break it was one of the worst things a manager could say.

 

[dpansheth]

What do people think about a salary cap? As with major American sports?

Why don't they implement that or consider the possibility of doing so?,

Look what they did with Prescott. “Signing bonus”.. City will just cheat

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

How do you create a salary cap that concerns teams that are in different leagues and different economies? What is your point of reference, a Ligue 1 club with a 15k stadium capacity or Barcelona and their 100k stadium capacity? The PL and its TV deal or Liga Sagres and its TV deal?

Also if you put a salary cap that is inferior to current wage bills, then you are taking money away from top players and putting in owners pockets because smaller clubs can't afford it anyway, they are not going to sign top players, they can't pay their wages nor their transfer fees.

All good points and that probably answers my question as to why it wouldn't be feasible.
You're right about different TV deals being an issue and calling larger teams essentially putting the money in the owners' pockets (essentially the opposite of direction the NBA CBAs have been going the past 9 years or so.

I'm not sure how to address any of the points you mentioned, and unless there is a way to do that, you're right. A cap wouldn't work.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

You're the one who brought up inventing formations, as your only rebuttal to his usage of the 4-3-3 was that he "didn't invent it". That's a ridiculous standard to have and I've correctly pointed out that this is just silly. Not sure why you've got your knickers in a twist about being called out.

You seem to not understand that innovation does not necessarily equate to being the first to do it. Making something that's not widely adopted popular is, in fact, a form of innovation.

Also you don't even know your own club's history; SAF moved to 4-3-3 in the late noughties - Ronaldo / Tevez / Rooney and/or Ronaldo / Berbatov / Rooney were all used in a front three. If Mourinho's tweaks can get even SAF to take notice and adjust, I don't know what better proof there is of genuine innovation.

I'll wait for you to point out my post and where I said that "inventing formations" is the only innovation.

Continuing using something that has already been innovated is not innovation. You continue repeating yourself as if you're incapable of assimilating what is saying or as though what I'm saying is complex.

I've asked you to show me a single instance of Mourinho innovating anything after I've already corrected your false claims that he "innovated" training with the ball or "innovated 4-3-3". Repeating what you've already been corrected on isn't a proper rebuttal. And that's all you've been able to do with your last 4 or 5 posts.

I'm still waiting for you to show me one example of Mourinho innovating anything.

 

[berbatrick]

I see it slightly differently. He spent a lot on the team that finished 2nd the year before, ahead of United, in the first year of the Abramovic takeover.
Winning 2 leagues in 4 seasons when you have no competition because the only two challengers are undergoing a transition, and being able to spend 3 times as much as your next nearest spender, only to be outperformed by that team in question over a 4 year period isn't domination, by any sense of the word.

Not sure why the points tally in just one of the 4 seasons matters more than the points tally from 2006-2007, if we were to look at it from another point of view.

You're isolating that Chelsea period, then saying that 60% of it (2004-06, since he left early in 2007) doesn't count because of lack of competition, you're ignoring what he did to Pep's Barca with 2 very different teams in 2 very different ways.

Let's look at Pep with the same lens.

He hasn't invented anything - possession and pressing was seen at Ajax and Milan too.
His first team (which had a GOAT player) got favourable refereeing in all their 4 CL semi-finals and he could only win 2.
His only league rival there was going through rebuilding, so he got gifted his first two titles by default. When a rival manager got 2 full seasons to coach their team properly, Pep lost the title and the head-to-head, and he fled from the league.
He then took over treble winners and never even got to the CL final, losing to counter-attackers 3 straight years.
Finally, he got into a team with historic unlimited spending power, the best squad depth in history, in a league with all rivals going through transition, was given a team which had won 2 leagues in the last 5 years, and all he has managed is 3 in 5, with zero improvement in the CL either.

 

[James Peril]

The relationship between Mourinho and Shaw was so bizarre

Does anyone remember when he claimed he had to talk him through a game on the touchline? For a player who probably had mental health issues after recovering from an horrific leg break it was one of the worst things a manager could say.

So now we just assume or expect people have «mental health issues» for every adversity in life? Very 2021 thing to say, I feel for the ones with real issues when everyone else can claim the same to get away from making an effort. Of course Shaw, the millionaire, had a very tough time after his injury... but he was not struck by terminal cancer or ALS, he broke his fecking leg.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

You're isolating that Chelsea period, then saying that 60% of it (2004-06, since he left early in 2007) doesn't count because of lack of competition, you're ignoring what he did to Pep's Barca with 2 very different teams in 2 very different ways.

Let's look at Pep with the same lens.

He hasn't invented anything - possession and pressing was seen at Ajax and Milan too.
His first team (which had a GOAT player) got favourable refereeing in all their 4 CL semi-finals and he could only win 2.
His only league rival there was going through rebuilding, so he got gifted his first two titles by default. When a rival manager got 2 full seasons to coach their team properly, Pep lost the title and the head-to-head, and he fled from the league.
He then took over treble winners and never even got to the CL final, losing to counter-attackers 3 straight years.
Finally, he got into a team with historic unlimited spending power, the best squad depth in history, in a league with all rivals going through transition, was given a team which had won 2 leagues in the last 5 years, and all he has managed is 3 in 5, with zero improvement in the CL either.

Why have you spent multiple paragraphs talking about Pep in a thread that has nothing to do with him?

He also didn't leave in early 2007. These are basic facts that nobody should be getting wrong.

 

[berbatrick]

Why have you spent multiple paragraphs talking about Pep in a thread that has nothing to do with him?

He also didn't leave in early 2007. These are basic facts that nobody should be getting wrong.

To show that any achievements can be whittled down to nothing by applying the kind of logic you used.

Jose left early in the 2007-08 season if you want a longform explanation of every word, since he joined at the start of the 2004-05 season (mid-2004 for you). That means he was at Chelsea for 3.25 seasons/years rather than 4.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

The atmosphere around the French national team during the 2010 WC was as toxic as it gets. I’m sure there are other examples as well.

every Dutch squad at a major tournament

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

To show that any achievements can be whittled down to nothing by applying the kind of logic you used.

Jose left early in the 2007-08 season if you want a longform explanation of every word, since he joined at the start of the 2004-05 season (mid-2004 for you). That means he was at Chelsea for 3.25 seasons/years rather than 4.

I don't need a longform explanation, but I expect accurate details. Why do you think he was sacked midway through his 4th season there? Because he was doing so well?

 

[Red Comet]

I find it so bizarre that people on the web nowadays have such polarised opinions and are willing to die on the hill over it. Either Mou is the Portuguese Tony Pulis or he's amongst the managerial GOAT who pioneered the 4-5-1/4-2-3-1/4-3-3 formation and system that is widely adopted today.

The truth is somewhere in between - we can acknowledge that Mou in his prime was a charismatic manager who could make his players run through the wall for him. He brought over his system from Porto to Chelsea, a club at that time despite the unprecedented investment from Abramovich has always been nearly there but not quite there. Mou established and made Chelsea a dominant force in EPL and in Europe, disrupted the Utd and Arsenal duopoly, and forced SAF to evolve as well. (And this is one of the biggest strengths of SAF - despite decades in management he has always been able to reinvent himself and rebuild the team around new systems and new players who grew up in different eras, something that Mou is obviously struggling with right now).

Mou achieved unprecedented success with Inter as well, culminating with their first ever Treble for any Italian clubs.

However, I feel that something inside Mou broke when Barcelona appointed Pep as the manager when it was almost widely expected for Mou to be appointed the manager. Ever since, he has firmly positioned himself as the "anti-Pep" with his well known anti-possession philosophy as though as he was doing in out of spite to show how big a mistake Barcelona is making. He was never the same since, and has never been as tactically flexible since, at least not since the days of first Chelsea stint and Inter stint. The loss of Rui Faria as his trusted Ass Man somehow has also contributed to his decline.

The game has moved on; with players growing up in a different era now requiring different methods of coaching and ways of motivating. His old school style of harsh criticism simply doesn't work with any players anymore. (This is another one of SAF strengths - he is able to adapt to different players and know how they respond to different things) He is still entrenched to his philosophy of non-possession football when every team worth their salt is doing high press and he is seemingly unable to coach attacking patterns into his players, often relying on individual brilliance and and sheer will of force like his Chelsea team in their pomp with Lampard, Robben and Drogba often making things happen.

Man Utd and Spurs are also a poor match for him - both clubs have tradition in attacking football and fans are generally willing to put up with defensive dross if results are attained. Unfortunately results hasn't gone his way and when that happen Mou frequently throw others under the bus and single players out for criticisms, which eventually created a toxic culture.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I find it so bizarre that people on the web nowadays have such polarised opinions and are willing to die on the hill over it. Either Mou is the Portuguese Tony Pulis or he's amongst the managerial GOAT who pioneered the 4-5-1/4-2-3-1/4-3-3 formation and system that is widely adopted today.

The truth is somewhere in between - we can acknowledge that Mou in his prime was a charismatic manager who could make his players run through the wall for him. He brought over his system from Porto to Chelsea, a club at that time despite the unprecedented investment from Abramovich has always been nearly there but not quite there. Mou established and made Chelsea a dominant force in EPL and in Europe, disrupted the Utd and Arsenal duopoly, and forced SAF to evolve as well. (And this is one of the biggest strengths of SAF - despite decades in management he has always been able to reinvent himself and rebuild the team around new systems and new players who grew up in different eras, something that Mou is obviously struggling with right now).

Mou achieved unprecedented success with Inter as well, culminating with their first ever Treble for any Italian clubs.

However, I feel that something inside Mou broke when Barcelona appointed Pep as the manager when it was almost widely expected for Mou to be appointed the manager. Ever since, he has firmly positioned himself as the "anti-Pep" with his well known anti-possession philosophy as though as he was doing in out of spite to show how big a mistake Barcelona is making. He was never the same since, and has never been as tactically flexible since, at least not since the days of first Chelsea stint and Inter stint. The loss of Rui Faria as his trusted Ass Man somehow has also contributed to his decline.

The game has moved on; with players growing up in a different era now requiring different methods of coaching and ways of motivating. His old school style of harsh criticism simply doesn't work with any players anymore. (This is another one of SAF strengths - he is able to adapt to different players and know how they respond to different things) He is still entrenched to his philosophy of non-possession football when every team worth their salt is doing high press and he is seemingly unable to coach attacking patterns into his players, often relying on individual brilliance and and sheer will of force like his Chelsea team in their pomp with Lampard, Robben and Drogba often making things happen.

Man Utd and Spurs are also a poor match for him - both clubs have tradition in attacking football and fans are generally willing to put up with defensive dross if results are attained. Unfortunately results hasn't gone his way and when that happen Mou frequently throw others under the bus and single players out for criticisms, which eventually created a toxic culture.

How did he establish Chelsea as a dominant force in Europe?
They were Champions League semi finalists when he came in and inherited the richest team in world football. He started 4 seasons as Chelsea manager and never managed to improve on their Champions League position, getting knocked out twice in 3 years by Benitez who had a much weaker Liverpool team and only a small fraction of his resources.

 

[Kag]

So now we just assume or expect people have «mental health issues» for every adversity in life? Very 2021 thing to say, I feel for the ones with real issues when everyone else can claim the same to get away from making an effort. Of course Shaw, the millionaire, had a very tough time after his injury... but he was not struck by terminal cancer or ALS, he broke his fecking leg.

Quoting this post due to its level of intelligence.

 

[clarkydaz]

Remember he mocked Wenger for being a specialist in failure

 

[Judas]

So now we just assume or expect people have «mental health issues» for every adversity in life? Very 2021 thing to say, I feel for the ones with real issues when everyone else can claim the same to get away from making an effort. Of course Shaw, the millionaire, had a very tough time after his injury... but he was not struck by terminal cancer or ALS, he broke his fecking leg.

All that's missing from this wonderfully ignorant post is calling Shaw a snowflake.

 

[Ole's screen]

I'm confused. What do we mean when we say "mental health issues" in regards to Shaw here? Are we talking simply about the mental blocks and hesitancies associated with suffering a major injury and struggles with form and fame or something more substantial?

As an addendum before people jump on me: obviously Jose's handling of this was typically brutish and indicative of his narcissism and lack of any sort of man management skills.

 

[Red00012]

So now we just assume or expect people have «mental health issues» for every adversity in life? Very 2021 thing to say, I feel for the ones with real issues when everyone else can claim the same to get away from making an effort. Of course Shaw, the millionaire, had a very tough time after his injury... but he was not struck by terminal cancer or ALS, he broke his fecking leg.

Yes because been a millionaire solves every problem known to mankind. Get a grip.
What an awful post

 

[The holy trinity 68]

So now we just assume or expect people have «mental health issues» for every adversity in life? Very 2021 thing to say, I feel for the ones with real issues when everyone else can claim the same to get away from making an effort. Of course Shaw, the millionaire, had a very tough time after his injury... but he was not struck by terminal cancer or ALS, he broke his fecking leg.

What a fecking idiot!

 

[Member 105568]

The guy above has a point. Is there anything out there saying Shaw had mental health issues? If he had then fair enough, but if he hasn't said it then it's better just to look more at what you know.

Mourinho managed and mistreated him terribly after an awful injury, that we do know. Mental health issues or not, you can be sure that Shaw would not be where he is now if Mourinho had stayed. His record of dealing with young players is abysmal, lots of those young players have gone on to become world class when they got to work under someone else, I think Shaw is getting to that level.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Shaw must be mentally very strong to be able to come back from the horror injury and then survive through the absolutely disgraceful way Mourinho spoke about him and treated him.

Utd fans still trying to big up Mourinho at this stage are just utterly deluded. I never hated Mourinho before he joined us, in fact I quite liked him. Especially after the Slippy G game.

But his rant after the Sevilla game where he basically shit all over Utd as a club and our history was where I was finished with him. So I don't give a shit if it makes me "bitter", I'm loving how fecking shite he is now and how bad a job he's done at Spurs.

 

[duffer]

The guy above has a point. Is there anything out there saying Shaw had mental health issues? If he had then fair enough, but if he hasn't said it then it's better just to look more at what you know.

Shaw has openly talked about it himself.

Recovering from the sort of injury he had will always involve mental health issues, not just for Shaw but for every player.

 

[BigBebe]

Shaw must be mentally very strong to be able to come back from the horror injury and then survive through the absolutely disgraceful way Mourinho spoke about him and treated him.

Utd fans still trying to big up Mourinho at this stage are just utterly deluded. I never hated Mourinho before he joined us, in fact I quite liked him. Especially after the Slippy G game.

But his rant after the Sevilla game where he basically shit all over Utd as a club and our history was where I was finished with him. So I don't give a shit if it makes me "bitter", I'm loving how fecking shite he is now and how bad a job he's done at Spurs.

I can't understand how he was allowed to stay on at the club after that. At the very least, SAF and SIr Bobby should have taken him out the back and kicked the shit out of him.

 

[CM]

Shaw has openly talked about it himself.

Recovering from the sort of injury he had will always involve mental health issues, not just for Shaw but for every player.

Shaw also said there was a chance of amputation if there were more complications when he had that double leg break.

To recover from an injury as serious as that to have your own manager regularly talking shit about you in the press must be extremely demoralising. Some of Mourinho's comments were very personal too, you've got to be a massive wanker to do that to a young player.

 

[calodo2003]

So now we just assume or expect people have «mental health issues» for every adversity in life? Very 2021 thing to say, I feel for the ones with real issues when everyone else can claim the same to get away from making an effort. Of course Shaw, the millionaire, had a very tough time after his injury... but he was not struck by terminal cancer or ALS, he broke his fecking leg.

Shaw has actually discussed his mental health issues in recent months. Your post is rather shocking in its ignorance & complete insensitivity to the subject.

 

[calodo2003]

I'm confused. What do we mean when we say "mental health issues" in regards to Shaw here? Are we talking simply about the mental blocks and hesitancies associated with suffering a major injury and struggles with form and fame or something more substantial?

As an addendum before people jump on me: obviously Jose's handling of this was typically brutish and indicative of his narcissism and lack of any sort of man management skills.

Shaw has openly discussed it being far more substantial.

 

[duffer]

Some of Mourinho's comments were very personal too, you've got to be a massive wanker to do that to a young player.

Do you think those comments were made because Jose was just being a dick? He's a lot of things but Mouriinho is not a stupid person.

Shaw was one of your best players in Jose's last season at Man United if I remember correctly. "Tough Love" ain't always pretty but it sometimes works.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Do you think those comments were made because Jose was just being a dick? He's a lot of things but Mouriinho is not a stupid person.

Shaw was one of your best players in Jose's last season at Man United if I remember correctly. "Tough Love" ain't always pretty but it sometimes works.

Yes.

He was one of our better players on account of being average where as everyone else was fecking shocking. mourinho can take absolutely no credit whatsoever.

 

[CM]

Do you think those comments were made because Jose was just being a dick? He's a lot of things but Mouriinho is not a stupid person.

Shaw was one of your best players in Jose's last season at Man United if I remember correctly. "Tough Love" ain't always pretty but it sometimes works.

I honestly don't know what he was trying to achieve. It didn't look to me that it was productive in any sense. There were plenty of occasions where he was publicly critical of Shaw when he played well, the most obvious being when he came out with the nonsense about 'playing with my brain.'

I think Mourinho's methods are just outdated. I know the likes of Terry and Lampard used to wax lyrical about him in the old days but it doesn't look like he knows the first thing about man management in the modern game. I remember other players getting inexplicably dropped by him here (although very few were treated as harshly as Shaw) and Rooney later spoke out about getting no feedback from Mourinho when he wasn't in the team.

 

[Red00012]

The guy above has a point. Is there anything out there saying Shaw had mental health issues? If he had then fair enough, but if he hasn't said it then it's better just to look more at what you know.

Mourinho managed and mistreated him terribly after an awful injury, that we do know. Mental health issues or not, you can be sure that Shaw would not be where he is now if Mourinho had stayed. His record of dealing with young players is abysmal, lots of those young players have gone on to become world class when they got to work under someone else, I think Shaw is getting to that level.

https://www.football365.com/news/shaw-discusses-dark-times-of-recovery-from-broken-leg

 

[Foxbatt]

Jose should retire from club football. It's a different era now. Players are no longer willing to run thru walls for managers and clubs. Where do we see it now? Not even at City.
Spurs players did it to Poch before. But Jose was right in criticizing his players because they never even attempt much.
He is going to miss the CL spots and probably would get sacked. It's rumoured that Levy is trying to get Brendan Rogers but why would he leave Leicester and go to a club that's not as good as Leicester? King Power is probably richer than Levy.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I honestly don't know what he was trying to achieve. It didn't look to me that it was productive in any sense. There were plenty of occasions where he was publicly critical of Shaw when he played well, the most obvious being when he came out with the nonsense about 'playing with my brain.'

I think Mourinho's methods are just outdated. I know the likes of Terry and Lampard used to wax lyrical about him in the old days but it doesn't look like he knows the first thing about man management in the modern game. I remember other players getting inexplicably dropped by him here (although very few were treated as harshly as Shaw) and Rooney later spoke out about getting no feedback from Mourinho when he wasn't in the team.

Proper (TMNT) Krang moment from Jose.

 

[Grande]

Do you think those comments were made because Jose was just being a dick? He's a lot of things but Mouriinho is not a stupid person.

Shaw was one of your best players in Jose's last season at Man United if I remember correctly. "Tough Love" ain't always pretty but it sometimes works.

He is not a stupid person per se, I think quite the opposite - when he’s in a calm and relaxed place, he seems to be very intelligent and reflected. However, there seems to be a couple if things that can make him ‘stupid’ in that context. One is when he gets the feeling that anything reflects badly on his personality outside of his control. He seems to be able to make evalutions worthy of four-year olds sometimes when under that kind of pressure, decisions that are as detrimental seen in the moment as seen in hindsight.

The other might pertain to methods, he sometimes seem to rely on methods for decision making instead of reevaluating. He has a few man-management methods i.e. that seemed to use to work well with Porto and Chelsea, but they are becoming increasingly ineffective. I think maybe he sometimes treats players worse than his intellect would have due to getting an effect in terms of motivation through fear of humiliation. Ferguson would use this aspect as well in measures dosis. However, looking at Real Madrid, Chelsea second stint, United and now likely Spurs (based mosetly on rumours admittedly), these methods seems to ruin as much as what they achieve, or more. At which point they become ‘stupid’.

My biggest piece of ‘evidence’ in this is how it seems he works very well with family and friends, whereas when he tries to amalgamate team spirit and raise standards with players, he increasingly seems to be divisive and make the majority of players lose confidence after a while.

 

[redsunited]

Do you think those comments were made because Jose was just being a dick? He's a lot of things but Mouriinho is not a stupid person.

Shaw was one of your best players in Jose's last season at Man United if I remember correctly. "Tough Love" ain't always pretty but it sometimes works.

iirc the scenario at that time was he tried to kick shaw out of the club to buy the inter player for the position of LWB and Shaw was still there because the United management didn't budge.

 

[FrankDrebin]

In victory or defeat he's a interesting character to scrutinize.

 

[MU655]

I don't think you can really call it a mental health issue. There will be natural hesistency from risking the same incident, but that is not a mental health issue. I think you have to be careful calling everything a mental health issues as it can undermine real problems.

Now, it could cause stress with people losing their jobs if it requires labour. But (and I know people are being dismissive of this) Shaw is pretty secure financially and this does help. A normal person does not have that security, so yes, money does help in this instance.

Shaw may have been disappointed not to play in that period, but that is something people have to get over. It is not like he was told he will never play again. He came back and played, so what was his mental difficulty exactly? It is merely understandable hesitancy due to not wanting to risk the same injury. That is not the same as a mental health. It is more of a mental block than anything.

Onto Mourinho. I think there are two definitive periods where he was the best manager in the world. At Inter Milan and the period of Porto to the two seasons at Chelsea.

I also think his La Liga title at Real Madrid has become underrated. He won it with record points and records goals scored against what many consider is the best club team ever. People say 'look at the team had', but I will ask why didn't they win it before Mourinho joined? A lot of the players were already there.

I think that was the last season of peak Mourinho, but he still managed to win the PL one more time with Chelsea.

In the end, with all the back and for, he is still one of the best managers ever.

 

[Beachryan]

Any chance he gets fired right before the League Cup final? Could use that post-Mourinho bounce to stop the quadruple

 

[calodo2003]

I don't think you can really call it a mental health issue. There will be natural hesistency from risking the same incident, but that is not a mental health issue. I think you have to be careful calling everything a mental health issues as it can undermine real problems.

Now, it could cause stress with people losing their jobs if it requires labour. But (and I know people are being dismissive of this) Shaw is pretty secure financially and this does help. A normal person does not have that security, so yes, money does help in this instance.

Shaw may have been disappointed not to play in that period, but that is something people have to get over. It is not like he was told he will never play again. He came back and played, so what was his mental difficulty exactly? It is merely understandable hesitancy due to not wanting to risk the same injury. That is not the same as a mental health. It is more of a mental block than anything.

Onto Mourinho. I think there are two definitive periods where he was the best manager in the world. At Inter Milan and the period of Porto to the two seasons at Chelsea.

I also think his La Liga title at Real Madrid has become underrated. He won it with record points and records goals scored against what many consider is the best club team ever. People say 'look at the team had', but I will ask why didn't they win it before Mourinho joined? A lot of the players were already there.

I think that was the last season of peak Mourinho, but he still managed to win the PL one more time with Chelsea.

In the end, with all the back and for, he is still one of the best managers ever.

Don’t want to belabor a point, but any type of depression is most certainly a mental health issue. Baffling to see it as anything other.

 

[Grinner]

So which chairmen/owners are stupid enough to give him another job?

How about Sunderland?

 

[Castia]

What is it with Ollie Holt and his hate for Jose? He’s wrote another attacking piece today and has been doing so for years?

The headline today with something like ‘The dinosaur in a designer coat’ I mean its so obviously a personal hatred I don’t know how he gets away with it.