just wait till we god forbid draw arsenal,this thread will turn proper shit..
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
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No No No! Haven't you been following the cafe? We are shit, Mourinho is clueless, all our players are shit and Tottenham, City are miles ahead of us in all aspects! If you aren't wanking off Pep and Pochettino in every post you aren't a true football fan. Get with the program mate!
I made that exact point just a few posts earlier. Obviously it was ignored by the poster wanting to go down the agenda route.
Yeah nothing wrong with needing moments of individual quality, that's why we and others pay the big bucks. My point was we're over relying on it right now. As opposed to a rounded team like City.
Upto Young putting us two ahead it felt like a familiar performance to me. Patchy, sloppy stuff. Obviously once you are ahead by two then we could relax, play a bit and Watford had to go for it.
You're welcome.
Brilliant.
Your disgusting!!!
haha!
TBF any other year's city we'd be on top.
This is probably the worst I've seen the caf for sheer quantity of knee-jerkiness. It must be a generational thing?
I can only imagine the dark days of THAT Alan Smith midfield in this age of instant media.
I can only imagine the dark days of THAT Alan Smith midfield in this age of instant media.
Kleberson and wallwork!!
This is the truth that a lot of people are refusing to face up to. Instead of recognising our weakness for what it is, they're resorting to calling people "knee jerks" and "spoiled". We have a systemic problem on offence, that much should be clear. On offence, City and Liverpool play far superior football to us. It will find us out.
It's playing the victim, low expectation, underdog, world against us card.
Yep definitely will find us out, we are scoring by accident and the manager has a track record of being found out. We really need to get in a manager that has broken PL and La Liga goal records because then we'll definitely be better in attack.
My point is we are not opening teams up as easily as we should with our calibre of players. How often have we as a team sliced open defences? Not very often.
Considering we're second for goals scored, quite a bit I'm guessing? You don't get to second in the table, by scoring as many goals as we have on talent alone. Spurs have a superior squad of attackers to us, yet have scored less? I remember reading we've scored the same amount of goals as Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs put together, all the while our best player being out for the majority of the season. We aren't as fluid as City, for sure, but it's hardly as bad as some people are making out. We are capable of playing football.
Our attack could improve, you're right, but I'd bet City have relied on individual brilliance just as much as we have - albeit they play a much more pleasing style of football to watch. Take away KDB's moment of individual brilliance in the Chelsea game and they get 1 point instead of 3, take away the deflected goal against Bournemouth and they get one point out of 3. Same goes for the goal against Southampton, moment of individual brilliance. KDB and Walker were aimlessly smashing balls into the box - reminded me of our football tbh, only for Sterling to take charge and bend it in.
All top teams rely on individuals, you can't win things on tactics alone. It might be true we rely on individual brilliance more, I don't know, I don't watch City all the time but it's really not as bad as people make it seem. We can be absolutely dire at times, but that's mostly because we have a pragmatist as a manager, not because he doesn't know how to get us attacking.
Your argument seems to be just by being Mourinho it means there can't be any problems.
I get the confusion. Myself and others are arguing we have to improve the attacking play quickly but at the same time we're 2nd in goals scored. It doesn't add up.
My only explanation is that these games where we've scored four have been a bit....odd. The play didn't warrant four goals, I doubt any fan would have predicted we'd score that many at half-time. Kind of come out of nowhere. Ashley Young scoring two belters including a freekick? Odds on that?
I'm not dismissing that though, it' a good quality to have. Just not something you can rely on as we've already seen this season. We don't need to be 8 points behind even with City being this good. The poor attacking play has probably already cost us the league. We could/should be in touching distance of them.
Our play is very limited as we don't have great fullbacks like other teams have. Just look at the effect of a good performance from one of our fullbacks had on our attacking play! If only we had that week in week out our only option wouldn't be to go through the middle.
Our wingers both like to play more centrally so we fully depend on our fullbacks for width. We definitely need to fix this problem either in January or during the summer market if we want to win the league or challenge against the best of teams.
This is a complete reversal from the days of Sir Alex. We used to complain that we never go through the middle.
I agree with your overall point, our play can be lethargic at times but I do think that can be down to personnel. Improving our fullbacks will improve our play tenfold, not to add a number 10 who can play well for more than a few games a season. Our passing and moving could be better, but we're not that sort of team, never will be imo. Bit difficult to do that when the middle of the pitch is so congested due to us having no width, anyway.
That gif always makes me laugh
Does anyone know what were they actually laughing about in the match ?
All the Pep bashing has took the heat off Jose - but one more mistake and slip up and he will feel the wrath of this forum, mark my words. Patience is growing thin with the "special one" tactics and general demeanour.
This month is going to be absolutely vital. Sadly I can't see us doing too well:
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ghest-december-fixtures-in-the-premier-league
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ghest-december-fixtures-in-the-premier-league
Feck sake, look at Liverpool, Citeh and Chelsea on that list.
I smell a ragspiracy in reverse. Will have to send a strongly worded letter to the FA.
slip ups are normal,every manager has them...the only thing that grate is criticism that has no context and is all about just attacking the manager..
Why is "patience growing thin" with his tactics when we have successfully held onto 2nd place in the league and are through to the next round of the CL bar a minor formality pending? And what about his demeanor is irksome? He hasn't been rustling Redmond or shouting at the linesman as far I can see.
We judge him at the end of the season. Its' funny, if "patience is growing thin" after winning 2 trophies last season and being in a good position in the current, wonder what abuse he will get if things are really bad.
Certainly need better fullbacks but not sure we can put it down to that. I've seen us play better football with worse in those positions.
I can't put my finger on exactly what's wrong. You look at the names and think the football should be great most weeks. I'd put it on the three around Lukaku if I had to pick. Inconsistent performances, inconsistent selection and no balance between left and right.
I'm just surprised at those who don't see any problem. In a way I think City looking so good has installed apathy in some. A kind of "well what can you do" mindset.
I don't think people don't see problems,some just realize we are not a finished product yet and trust the manager to continue his rebuilding job.he has bought well so far,and they have been integral to how we play....people act like he is taking over from fergie and not from the dross that was moyes and lvg..
It's not a systemic problem. We have extremely young attackers - Rashford, Martial - and have no "proper" full-backs. Valencia is toiling hard at hitting the defenders' shins harder with every shot, but barring Young, we have no proper crossing. We struggle out wide on the right with Mata as well (not a proper winger) and that means successful crossing is, well, unexpected, when it comes from the right. That said, we've come forward mightily from last season and specially from LvG and Moyes. We are creating tons more chances (if Lukaku had put them away, we'd be right up there with City!). We're also far more solid at the back than before - without compromising on attacking intent. Remember the LvG days? We no longer need such massive defensiveness to avoid conceding.
City and Liverpool? City and Pep had a massive head-start on United and Jose when they took over. Not just in terms of money. The attack was pretty much in place already - and it's attackers that cost the big bucks. Despite this, they spent massively on the defence. Liverpool were probably as broken - and have fixed the attack - but damn, the team is so lop-sided! Would you rather be them? Lower in the table, scoring fewer and conceding more, but hey, "playing superior football"? Last I checked, scoring more and conceding fewer pretty much means we're playing better football all-round.
We have weaknesses - we still need a RW, CM cover for Pog, proper FBs and potentially a 10 (depending on how Jose wants to set up). Mkhi has failed (I so desperately want him to succeed but have given up). But Jose has done the right thing. He's fixed our defence, has got us a world-class first-choice midfield, solved a number of attacking issues (goals) and will likely take the next window (or 2) to now launch us up towards the European top table. Make no mistakes about how expensive it is to fix attacking issues. Look at the prices for Neymar, Mbappe, Dybala and even Dembele and so many more (many unproven!).
I'm also glad Jose is taking time - in all his previous jobs, he's taken an expensive hatchet to the task and by Season 3, the club / players start burning out. He's shown far more respect for our ways (slower transition of players, more youth) than he's ever done before and I think we should be grateful.
Yup. We've kept scoring four by fluke / happenstance. When it happens as often as it has been, you have to accept we're doing something right. We're incapable of playing the level of attacking football that City do right now (far more settled and with proper FBs) but we're getting there!
It's very hard to play through the middle in a rigid or semi-rigid system like the one Mourinho is playing. Usually, space is more congested there (at least when you're playing against good teams), and without a brilliant number 10 it's very hard to pass through that congested space without proper movement from your passing targets, not to mention that you need players of absolute exquisite first touch who could tame those passes under pressure with great consistency. Lukaku and some of your other attacking players aren't of this profile, so it's kind of natural that, instead of accepting the challenge of playing through congested space, they will drift wide where there is less congestion. Mourinho plays reactive football. Playing through the center is the trait of a more proactive way of playing, that sees dominating the opponent as an important part of the game. Mourinho's United will always be more opportunistic rather than flat out dominant.
So basically, you are up against a situation that offers two solutions. By crowding the middle, which most teams use, and which is perfectly normal and the right thing to do, they automatically open space out wide because you can't bring more men in an area without leaving fewer in other zones. So, somewhere out wide, there is a space you can use if you switch fast enough to not allow them to shit on that side. So here's what you can do, 2 basic ways to go at it.
You can either make a bold statement, and refuse to play where the opponent is giving you the opportunity to play, in order to unlock his defense through the middle (which can be done for sure, as the team with the ball can always create different imaginative combinations that are difficult to block, but it's still a hard task that requires a lot of technical ability and tactical nous). This means the attacking team's players simply don't drift wide or use wide passing channels to construct attacks just because there is more space there, because in football central areas are the most dangerous for the opponent, it's why they block them with vigor in the first place. They choose to embrace the challenge of conquering the middle in spite of the other team over-crowding it. They want their key players to still force the play through the central channels, making the game look quite claustrophobic at times. These teams are stubborn and proactive, and they trust their ability to maneuver and pass the ball in those tight spaces. And they manage to do that, by simply having the players, the will, and the courage to play where 99% of the team would not even try to because the space is not there by itself, you have to find ways to manufacture it. Basically a philosophy of 'no matter how you play, no matter how many players you bring there, I will still do my own thing and own the central zones'. This is one of the best examples of domination. Not letting the opponent dictate how you attack, by going where he wants you to go, but conquering the areas that both teams find as key to conquer/defend and prepare for it as such.
I can tell you that 2010-11 Barca at their best would play through the middle and succeed at doing that no matter how hard the defensive team tried to block that area. They would pass so fast, so quick and so precise, that they would time and time again bring the ball out of seemingly impossible spaces to play through. City is following a bit the same route I think, but with lesser players. They construct more attacks out wide though because they just don't have the same quality to unlock teams from the middle (also I make a clear distinction between 2009 Barca, and 2011 Barca, because the style was quite different). Which is also why they invested massively in fullbacks. It's very hard to find players like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alves, Busquets. The tight spaces technique of those players is probably either a 9/10, or a perfect 10/10 for Messi and Iniesta. So City is not quite as dominant, but against most teams, they will try to own the center and play through there, with De Bruyne, Silva and others being not all time greats, but still among the best in the world at this. They need a player with a better touch than Aguero though, and that's one of the reasons why Pep has not been as pleased with Aguero I think, even though he scored a lot. His control is not quite as sharp in tight spaces. His touch is a bit heavy, a bit inconsistent and it leads to turnovers more often than Guardiola would want.
And there's another way to deal with congested middle space, and this is how most teams do it. Just bring the ball fast with long passes, quick changes of the direction of play, in areas where there is more space. And use physically strong and fast players there to force duels every time they can. Also, do runs out wide. Also, play the target man in situation where congested space doesn't bother him that much. In the air is a good option because if your target man can win those duels, he can redirect the ball from congested spaces towards wider, more free, zones. But here's the thing. Most teams in the Premier League are perfectly adapted to this way of playing. The way you play is how they know to defend. So to win like that, you have to be crazy good. And I don't see how you can be that good at this style. Don't see the players. I'd change 5-6 players in your first 11, but I don't know who I'd bring that would give you the things you need to be on top playing like this.
I've said similar things in another thread at some point, but if United wants to play like that, super-conservative stuff, they need to have extraordinary players in their team, because the system is not adding much on top of the individual quality of the players. The issue is there are teams who have the right players and who also play the better football, more adapted to the modern times of pass and move, pressing, flexible positions, ball & teammate orientation, and concepts like that. You use neither of those concepts, or when you show some signs of them, it comes off as pretty schematic at times. It's more old stuff, sitting back, inviting pressure, long balls, rigid positioning rules and such.
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It would be an amazing achievement for him if he gets a draw if you consider he got two points and 1 goal scored in his last 9 aways vs top 6. I willbe praising him like he is the second coming of fergie.
Is it though? I have been here since january 2002 and it's like I've been reading your style of posts overand over again.
Not only playing defensive football. These others teams apparently also have way better attacking players in their striker positions, attacking mids, wingers, fullbacks, etc...It is also many caf members' opinions that we have half a team of donkeys on our team that we need to get rid.
Master class in counter attacking in that first half. Jose at his best.
Great set up in the first 20 mins, hope he is clever enough to switch it up. This isnt sustainable.
It's weird how much people get swayed by the scoreline isn't it?
I think he will be going apoplectic in the changing room right now with how we've defended.
Excellent counter attacking. Something we've missed in the big games.
But our defending was very poor. Think we need to shore up the midfield. We're getting outnumbered and we should change from our 5 back system.
But our defending was very poor. Think we need to shore up the midfield. We're getting outnumbered and we should change from our 5 back system.
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