Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

[cyberman]

Why you putting Rashford`s name there, Rashford would never happen under JM, its easier to give minutes to a kid when someone else risked and had faith in him. JM giving a PL debut to a kid vs Wenger, yea, there is no universe where that would happen, it would be false nine time. On top, also OT crowd force minutes on homegrown kid who is one of their own.

Im lost. 18 games is nothing, Its not as if these players get chances sight unseen.
Will our squad building collapse to where we're forced to play an untested reserve under Jose? I don't see it. Rashford would have had the McTominay treatment as in a taster early on followed by a chance to cement his spot in the side.
Its a bit harsh to ignore Joses role in this when a 20 yo has played more games than any other under him.
It seems to be nit picking for arguments sake.

 

[AR87]

You should tell that to JM, its him who came out with a list of 3 minute debuts as proof of youth development and trust lol.

18 year old playing 18 games for Manchester United in trot isnt just 18 games

Then he played a ton under JM the following 2 seasons, so the proof we have is that he has continued to trust a young talent even amidst lengthy dry spells.

 

[R'hllor]

Im lost. 18 games is nothing, Its not as if these players get chances sight unseen.
Will our squad building collapse to where we're forced to play an untested reserve under Jose? I don't see it. Rashford would have had the McTominay treatment as in a taster early on followed by a chance to cement his spot in the side.
Its a bit harsh to ignore Joses role in this when a 20 yo has played more games than any other under him.
It seems to be nit picking for arguments sake.

Like hell its nothing. From EL debut/Arsenal game he played almost all if not all games till LvG sacking. Yea we all can see how his main players get in rotation like Lukaku, Costa, so he would get McT treatment for sure, please.

 

[roonster09]

You should tell that to JM, its him who came out with a list of 3 minute debuts as proof of youth development and trust lol.

18 year old playing 18 games for Manchester United in trot isnt just 18 games

It is just 18 games. He could have been Macheda or any other young players who played a season or 2 and disappeared.

If 18 year old playing 18 games is not just 18 games then not sure what would you call a 19 year old playing nearly 40 plus games for Manchester United.

Btw many didn't agree with Jose's list, so not sure I should be the one asking him about the list.

 

[R'hllor]

Then he played a ton under JM the following 2 seasons, so the proof we have is that he has continued to trust a young talent even amidst lengthy dry spells.

And nobody argues about that.

 

[AR87]

And nobody argues about that.

Instead we argue about something that can't be proven as a stick to beat the manager with. Makes sense.

 

[cyberman]

Like hell its nothing. From EL debut/Arsenal game he played almost all if not all games till LvG sacking. Yea we all can see how his main players get in rotation like Lukaku, Costa, so he would get McT treatment for sure, please.

Of course its nothing. Jose didn't think "Wow, 18 games. He's practically established here."
18, 10, 8. I can't see the difference between those stats havng any bearing on his decisions. Judging by his comments today and his overall views on our youth, its safe to say he would have backed Rashford to make a point. I can't see anyone else that would have leapfrogged Marcus to get that spot tbh.
1 youth player to break through per year.

 

[Skills]

Of course its nothing. Jose didn't think "Wow, 18 games. He's practically established here."
18, 10, 8. I can't see the difference between those stats havng any bearing on his decisions. Judging by his comments today and his overall views on our youth, its safe to say he would have backed Rashford to make a point. I can't see anyone else that would have leapfrogged Marcus to get that spot tbh.
1 youth player to break through per year.

Err he was an England international. It wasn't an average set of 18 games, he did well enough to break into the England set up and was impressive off the bench for England too.

Mourinho would've lost all goodwill at the start if Rashford was completely sidelined after that run he had under Van Gaal.

 

[Lentwood]

Really?

United:

Rashford (20) PL/CL minutes: 1919
Martial (22) PL/CL minutes: 1811
McTominay (21) PL/CL minutes: 641
Shaw (22) PL/CL minutes: 736
Lindelöf (23) PL/CL minutes: 1554

Total minutes for players age 23 and under: 6661

City:

Stones (23) PL/CL minutes: 1593
Jesus (21) PL/CL minutes: 2007
Sané (22) PL/CL minutes: 2716
Sterling (23) PL/CL minutes: 2820
Silva (23) PL/CL minutes: 1898
Zinchenko (21) PL/CL minutes: 547
Foden (17) PL/CL minutes: 232
Diaz (18) PL/CL minutes: 84

Total minutes: 11897

Surely you can see the obvious flaw with your post? How many of those players were given their 'development minutes' at City?

Sterling had almost won a title playing every week for Liverpool and transferred for £50m

Stones had been playing in the PL for two/three seasons with Everton and was a full International

You've included Silva, which is just outright ridiculous. Lad was playing in the team that tore City apart in the CL just last season

Sane, again, been playing top flight football with another team for a couple of years

It's daft really too talk about 'young players' and then include players that were bought in for big money at 22/23 years of age

 

[Akshay]

Why exactly does Mourinho deserve more credit for playing Rashford than say Pep does for playing Sané? For the sheer coincidence that Rashford came out of our academy (which Mourinho had nothing to do with)?

The mental gymnastics some of you engage in to make Mourinho look good is really fascinating to watch.

Really? You can't see a difference between buying a £45m 20 year old with more than three times as much game experience and a 18 year old completing a debut season (in which he only featured for about half of it)? Then again I've seen a similar argument regarding Sterling and Rashford, with equally large differences in price, age and experience. It really makes you wonder about the intentions of those making such outlandish comparisons.

It's funny because when Pep arrived there was a lot of hype over Iheanacho and how Pep was going to develop him into a superior player than Rashford, then Iheanacho gets unceremoniously dumped after one season and he's been revised to never having been good enough.

 

[sunama]

We have some wierd fixation with young players in England. Both domestically and in the National team.

People bang on and on about blooding youngsters and talk about anyone over 27 as over the hill and short-term options which is ridiculuous

A common myth is that we won a title with kids - well, not really. Schmeichel, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Keane and Cantona where hardly spotty teenagers and Giggs had been in the first team for 3/4yrs in 95/96. Weve got to focus on quality and experience first, then we will have the luxury of turning to Youth

Finally. Someone with some common sense has spoken.
This nonsense about continually blooding youngsters and then winning the league with them has to stop.
We are not the title winning side we used to be and as such, our No.1 priority must be to win the title (which will most likely require players in their prime).
Once we win the title, we can be in a position where we can blood youngsters.

And I do find it amusing when people make out that Sanchez is an old man, whose about to drop dead any minute. The man is in his prime and should play ahead of the youngsters. Of course, in unimportant games or when the senior players need a rest or are injured, youngsters like Rashford and Martial can step in. The weird thing is that Lukaku has had virtually no injuries this season. The only time he missed game time is when he was held back as a precautionary measure, for concussion. In any other season, Lukaku will be injured from time to time and youngster like Rashford will get their chance.

 

[cyberman]

Err he was an England international. It wasn't an average set of 18 games, he did well enough to break into the England set up and was impressive off the bench for England too.

Mourinho would've lost all goodwill at the start if Rashford was completely sidelined after that run he had under Van Gaal.

That says more about England tbh. They also tried to call Scott up after a handful of games.
Martial was our best outfield player that year yet Jose has repeatedly dropped him and looks to be selling him on this year.
Why doesn't Jose take the easy way out with him if LVG gave him so much leeway?
Rashford could have been another Iheanacho but Jose shifted him out wide to help him develop.
Even now he isn't a sure thing so I have no idea why trusting an 18 year old is somehow seen as having an asterix beside it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The ideal scenario is a mix of youth and experience. When it doesn't apply is when one is simply a better player than the other which is the case with Sanchez being better than Martial.

Whether or not Martial can become better etc. Isn't really relevant as currently Sanchez is better and would offer more to us over a season when vying for major honors. While he's more than capable of influencing games, Martial wouldn't have been able to produce performances like Sanchez did against City and Spurs, it's not his playstyle. He doesn't get everywhere on the pitch and throw his body on the line like Sanchez does.

I cant see how that 'isnt relevant'. We might as well shut down the academy and only signed players of the age 26-30 from here onwards if potential isn't relevant. The future is important. Sir Alex always had a long term view and I'd like to see the club always maintain a focus on that.

Where I do agree is that Sanchez is better than Martial right now. Then again few would dispute that. Many of us have explored the possibility of both starting in the same system and hope that the manager would do the same.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Yea...not a fecking chance, Costa was injured vs Moyes United and he didnt dare to trust his reserve strikers let alone some kid from academy, went for false nine with Hazard.

Yeah, it's not as if he trusted McTominay against Chelsea and Liverpool?

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Why exactly does Mourinho deserve more credit for playing Rashford than say Pep does for playing Sané? For the sheer coincidence that Rashford came out of our academy (which Mourinho had nothing to do with)?

The mental gymnastics some of you engage in to make Mourinho look good is really fascinating to watch.

All we heard from the press and the anti Mourinho crowd was how much better Pep is with young players and that Pep would give players chances in the first team who come through their academy (which is supposed to be the best in the world) Read Nicky Butt's recent interview, Mourinho has had a hands on approach with our academy and is looking to give more players a chance.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Why you putting Rashford`s name there, Rashford would never happen under JM, its easier to give minutes to a kid when someone else risked and had faith in him. JM giving a PL debut to a kid vs Wenger, yea, there is no universe where that would happen, it would be false nine time. On top, also OT crowd force minutes on homegrown kid who is one of their own.

Disagree. You should read Nicky Butt's recent interview in the Times. Even Mourinho's approach to United's academy has surprised him.

 

[R'hllor]

Yeah, it's not as if he trusted McTominay against Chelsea and Liverpool?

Yeah and who is arguing about McT?

 

[haram]

Top European teams do not buy players after they are already 28 either. They buy young (at least below 28 years) and let them have experience along with the existing players.

When you have a lack of quality and experience thats what you have to do at times. Our squad cannot be compared to the top European teams. What promising young players have actually been in our squad the last 5 years? Martial and Rashford? So you purchase players like Pogba and Lukaku but still have to go and sign players like Matic and Sanchez.

Our most experienced players (so before signing Matic and Sanchez) also lack the same quality of the top european teams. Young, Valencia, Smalling etc. The only ones up there is de Gea and perhaps Mata.

 

[breakout67]

When you have a lack of quality and experience thats what you have to do at times. Our squad cannot be compared to the top European teams. What promising young players have actually been in our squad the last 5 years? Martial and Rashford? So you purchase players like Pogba and Lukaku but still have to go and sign players like Matic and Sanchez.

Our most experienced players also lack the same quality of the top european teams. Young, Valencia, Smalling etc. The only ones up there is de Gea and perhaps Mata.

Its complete bollocks anyway.

Juventus buy players over 28 regularly and they are still one of the top teams in Europe. We bought RVP at 29 years old, won the league and were knocked out the CL due to a dodgy red card. Bayern bought Vidal a few months after he turned 28.

Once again, people making shite up in this thread to support an agenda. Top teams are not so idiotic to operate on the basis of 'don't buy a player if he's 28 or older'. They assess the team and buy accordingly. If there is a lack of young talent in the team they get some in, if there is a lack of experience they get some in.

 

[haram]

Well done Mourinho for inheriting one of the biggest talents in the world from van Gaal/our academy. Very impressive, give the man credit.

Where were you after the Spurs game? We could have had a chat man . Nice to see you being negative again, never change man.

 

[Borden]

Where were you after the Spurs game? We could have had a chat man . Nice to see you being negative again, never change man.

Where I was? I was here. As usual.

Next time you want to have a chat don't be afraid to ask.

 

[haram]

Where I was? I was here. As usual.

You should @ me next time!

Your last post in this thread was on Wednesday! Dont be afraid next time! We can talk whether we win or lose! Not only when we lose!

 

[Borden]

You should @ me next time!

I know that would've made you hard, but you're not really on my mind all that often mate.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Yeah and who is arguing about McT?

The general topic is regarding youth.

 

[haram]

I know that would've made you hard, but you're not really on my mind all that often mate.

Only on your mind when we lose! I know!

 

[Borden]

Only on your mind when we lose! I know!

I admit I love poking you when we lose (though I think it's only happened once), because you get so angry

 

[Womp]

I cant see how that 'isnt relevant'. We might as well shut down the academy and only signed players of the age 26-30 from here onwards if potential isn't relevant. The future is important. Sir Alex always had a long term view and I'd like to see the club always maintain a focus on that.

Where I do agree is that Sanchez is better than Martial right now. Then again few would dispute that. Many of us have explored the possibility of both starting in the same system and hope that the manager would do the same.

I never said young players and potential wasn't relevant, I said that that specific scenario doesn't apply when one player is simply better than the other. Ideally you'd want a mix of youth and experience, but managers are always going to play their best players and ones who benefit the team the most.

Both have played in the same system, albeit Martial playing from the right where he isn't as comfortable. That being said, I still think Lingard is a better fit for the diamond system we've been playing with Sanchez. Pogba gets to play in a three and influence the game from the left like he wants to, Sanchez gets a free role and Lingard's exceptional movement and hardwork compliments them well. (Movement and hard work, both things Lingard is far superior to Martial at)

I'm sure Martial will also be tried in that position and will get game time, but if he doesn't think it'll be enough, it won't be the end of the World. He won't be the last talented player to leave the club, we've been okay losing far better players in the past. He's not the only talented player who's behind better or more experienced players in the pecking order. That's common practice at top teams. See Madrid etc.

 

[haram]

I admit I love poking you when we lose (though I think it's only happened once), because you get so angry

Gonna be a busy night for @haram

Please do this more often

If you can do it when we lose, you can do it when we win. Special prize if you do it when we win more trophies .

 

[R'hllor]

The general topic is regarding youth.

Maybe general topic is but discussion that was started has nothing to do with McT, try to follow up, before jumping on me with desperation to insert anything positive to light on JM. Nobody taking away his trust in McT, even tho Sevilla game raised some issues.

 

[Borden]

Please do this more often

If you can do it when we lose, you can do it when we win. Special prize if you do it when we win more trophies .

Why would I do it when we win? Makes no sense. I'm making fun of your fanboyish behavior and borderline hysterical defence of everything Mourinho after all.

 

[haram]

Why would I do it when we win? Makes no sense. I'm making fun of your fanboyish behavior and borderline hysterical defence of everything Mourinho after all.

Nice to know man. I'm trying to help you and your toxic negativity. After all, you didnt post in here after we beat Spurs but are in here now trying to put a negative spin on Jose’s use of youth.

If I cant help you, maybe someone else will one day.

 

[Borden]

Nice to know man. I'm trying to help you and your toxic negativity. After all, you didnt post in here after we beat Spurs but are in here now trying to put a negative spin on Jose’s use of youth.

If I cant help you, maybe someone else will one day.

I didn't? From the post match thread:

Great performance. Feared the worst with the way we started, but really grew into the game. Delighted.

If you're talking about this specific thread then feck me, I didn't know I had to post in every thread after every good performance

You can't help me, nor do I need any.

 

[haram]

I didn't? From the post match thread:


If you're talking about this specific thread then feck me, I didn't know I had to post in every thread after every good performance

You are more than happy to post in here after we lose though

We can talk another day. I hope you’re not as negative in real life, it’s quite unhealthy.

 

[reddaz71]

You can see who the plastic Utd fans are when we have the most decorated manager in world football steering us back to where we belong saying nothing or affording any credit when the team wins to outright hostility towards Mourinho when we occasionally falter!

This is a ridiculous thread!

 

[R'hllor]

You can see who the plastic Utd fans are when we have the most decorated manager in world football steering us back to where we belong saying nothing or affording any credit when the team wins to outright hostility towards Mourinho when we occasionally falter!

This is a ridiculous thread!

Mods, promote this guy.

 

[Thisistheone]

I'm not saying that, but I don't think football is played on paper.

Cast your mind back to 05/06. The last few months of that season. Something clicked, and it carried right through to the most successful period in the club's history.

I don't see that happening with us, do you? If I did, where we finished on paper, or whether we beat Chelsea in May, wouldn't be the barometer for me.

2nd, 3rd or 4th. It's a much of a muchness. Winning the FA Cup is great for the squad, and the importance of silverware can't be underestimated. But to answer your question, I started this season with very low expectations. Pre season was enough for me to realise that we weren't going to be pulling up any trees on the pitch. I couldn't even get giddy back in September because I was convinced the 4-0 wins were somewhat generous and that we'd still struggle to score goals at a title-winning pace (since proven to be the case). The attacking football I was watching wasn't exciting or creative enough for me and that's something I haven't been able to shake. Though it must be said that more recent games against our rivals have certainly been better.

What will really get Mourinho critics on board is an appealing style of football that supporters can buy into. An early 06/07 side that looks as if it can cause some damage. After two seasons I don't think we're anywhere near that. There's always next season...

This is pretty much how I feel right now. And Saturday was very sweet. Probably one of the best days for Jose since he got here.

Lets see what he can do in his 3rd season.

 

[AshRK]

I'm not saying that, but I don't think football is played on paper.

Cast your mind back to 05/06. The last few months of that season. Something clicked, and it carried right through to the most successful period in the club's history.

I don't see that happening with us, do you? If I did, where we finished on paper, or whether we beat Chelsea in May, wouldn't be the barometer for me.

2nd, 3rd or 4th. It's a much of a muchness. Winning the FA Cup is great for the squad, and the importance of silverware can't be underestimated. But to answer your question, I started this season with very low expectations. Pre season was enough for me to realise that we weren't going to be pulling up any trees on the pitch. I couldn't even get giddy back in September because I was convinced the 4-0 wins were somewhat generous and that we'd still struggle to score goals at a title-winning pace (since proven to be the case). The attacking football I was watching wasn't exciting or creative enough for me and that's something I haven't been able to shake. Though it must be said that more recent games against our rivals have certainly been better.

What will really get Mourinho critics on board is an appealing style of football that supporters can buy into. An early 06/07 side that looks as if it can cause some damage. After two seasons I don't think we're anywhere near that. There's always next season...

With all due respect to you but you are surely rewriting history wrongly. There was nothing great to the end of the 05-06 season. I still very much remember how badly we lost to Chelsea (the match where Rooney broke his toe) and then that boring 0-0 draw to Sunderland and Middlesbrough. The papers were not kind to us, I remember reading after the 0-0 draw to Sunderland, how sir alex was past it and how once entertaining Manchester United have become boring and a chore to watch. Apart from that there were some other boring games to end that season, many 1-0s or 2-1s which were far from fun to watch. Although, we finished with 83 points but we scored 72 goals (we have scored 65 so far with 4 to go).

The point I am trying to make is there was nothing at the start of 2006-07 season that suggested we will dominate, many predicted jose's Chelsea to win another PL considering they signed shevchenko and ballack. On the other hand we just signed Carrick and there were rumours of Ronaldo leaving after his so called fight with Rooney at the WC. Trust me no one would have predicted us doing what we did that season or the seasons to come.

In sum, there is no reason why we cannot dominate or win the league next season considering we have beaten all the big teams fair and square and are now turning up in the big games.

 

[ash_86]

How about we look at City instead?

Only Otamendi, Kompany (usually injured), Silva, Fernandino and Aguero from their first 11 are experienced/older players. We have Smalling, Valencia, Young, Matic, Mata and Sanchez.

As for the bolded bit, because we're Manchester United. I always want us to be that team. Fwiw, experienced players don't necessarily perform better. See Mata, Valencia, Young etc. who people want replaced.

Things that work out under one manager may not work the same with other manager. We got to realize that and move on. Class of 92 doesn't grow on tress and we were very fortunate to have set of talented youngsters coming to play for the team at the same time. Even Barca's academy hasn't produced a genuine talent that they could use in the first team for years.

Regarding the bolded part, ofcourse nothing is a guarantee. But generally a good experienced player deliver consistently than someone learning the trade. My whole point is that we should not be going crazy when under performing experienced players are being replaced by good experienced players instead of 21's and 22's.

 

[edgar allan]

Mods, promote this guy.

Mods. Ban this guy

 

[Trizy]

City:

Stones (23) PL/CL minutes: 1593
Jesus (21) PL/CL minutes: 2007
Sané (22) PL/CL minutes: 2716
Sterling (23) PL/CL minutes: 2820
Silva (23) PL/CL minutes: 1898
Zinchenko (21) PL/CL minutes: 547
Foden (17) PL/CL minutes: 232
Diaz (18) PL/CL minutes: 84

Total minutes: 11897

They're not exactly academy graduates, are they? The bolded all cost like 30-50m each