Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

[Adebesi]

I was just watching an ESPN clip and they had Alysson Rudd from The Times on talking and she made a point I havent heard anyone else make before. Maybe someone has and I missed it.

But she reckons Mourinho is struggling with the death of his father. That it has hit him really hard and deprived him of his sense of control. And now he is kind of losing the plot.

fascinating theory, I thought. Not sure if I agree with it. Its one of those things, I dont know whether I am in a position to agree or disagree with it, really, without knowing the man personally, or at least a bit more about the circumstances of the situation.

The whole thing then evolves into a broader discussion about mental health in football and how managers (and players) cope with the extreme pressure they are under.

Its here for anyone who is interested. The bit I refer to starts around 4.10 though there is a lead up to that specific comment. But the whole thing is about Mourinho and whether he has lost his magic touch, so relevant for this discussion.

 

[Jazz]

I was just watching an ESPN clip and they had Alysson Rudd from The Times on talking and she made a point I havent heard anyone else make before. Maybe someone has and I missed it.

But she reckons Mourinho is struggling with the death of his father. That it has hit him really hard and deprived him of his sense of control. And now he is kind of losing the plot.

fascinating theory, I thought. Not sure if I agree with it. Its one of those things, I dont know whether I am in a position to agree or disagree with it, really, without knowing the man personally, or at least a bit more about the circumstances of the situation.

Its here for anyone who is interested. The bit I refer to starts around 4.10 though there is a lead up to that specific comment. But the whole thing is about Mourinho and whether he has lost his magic touch, so relevant for this discussion.

He was behaving like this even when his dad was alive, so no I don't think it's that. Naturally his dad's death wouldn't have helped, but this has happened from his Madrid stint, so I can't see this as the main issue.

 

[Adebesi]

He was behaving like this even when his dad was alive, so no I don't think it's that. Naturally his dad's death wouldn't have helped, but this has happened from his Madrid stint, so I can't see this as the main issue.

I thought the same. But then I didnt know how long his dad was ill for, whether he started dealing with it even before it happened?

No idea. But yeah, it doesnt seem to align in terms of timeline.

 

[Canagel]

The main current Mourinho problem is this. Since he has little concept of coaching an attacking game, he must rely on flair players, ones that can decide on their own how to attack and invent the goal themselves.
But his rigidity and his coaching motivation methods always alienate these players and restrict them on the field. It happened with Hazard at Chelsea, here we have Pogba and our wingers in the same situation. Especially Martial.

The only way out from this is to get rid of Mourinho. Plenty of players have continued to perform after he's left like Ronaldo and Hazard for example. Imagine if Chelsea and Real Madrid had kept Mourinho on. They would've left and gone somewhere else and the big losers in the end are the clubs because the manager not only has he alienated these specific players causing them to leave but he's also lost the dressing room as a whole and his methods won't lead to winning trophies which is what we want. It's not worth keeping Mourinho on for any longer if we are at the risk of losing important assets like Pogba and Martial who can be here for the next 10 years. It's easier to find a manager who will bring the best from our attacking players.

 

[Jazz]

I thought the same. But then I didnt know how long his dad was ill for, whether he started dealing with it even before it happened?

No idea. But yeah, it doesnt seem to align in terms of timeline.

It's just how his personality works. When things are going fine and he's being praised, he's all good and charismatic even - but the moment he perceives any criticism of his methods or whatever, he then turns toxic because he cannot handle said criticism, and that imho is the crux of the problem. Unfortunately for us, his inability to accept that he might be wrong from time to time, means that he'll resort to any means (even if bad for the club), to ensure that criticism is shifted away from him.

 

[RedRover]

I've always rated Mourinho and was an advocate of him getting the job here after Fergie left. He's evidently improved the team and could continue to do so going forward.

I personally don't like the football we're currently playing. I don't hold with the idea that Mourinho has always set up his teams to be tactically defensive. Some of his sides have been good to watch. He has a habit of setting up "tight" sides in big games - something Fergie also did, albeit to less of an extent, but I can live with that given that historically, title winning sides are those that take points from those big games against the other top sides over a season. That said, at the moment the whole thing seems horrendously disjointed even against average sides. We're too slow, there is no pressing, the whole thing is tumescent and uninspiring. We can't control games and talented attacking players look "blunted". His style looks like it may be becoming outdated and I'm not sure he knows how to fix the obvious problems we have.

In light of how well City are playing, and given the football an element of the United fans (and most of the press) seem to "expect" his style at the moment will be acceptable when we win but criticised as soon as we don't. In my opinion that won't change since its become the accepted line.

His personality is the big problem though. He seems overly sensitive given recent outbursts. He's clearly hugely concerned by what is being written about him in the press. He is, in my opinion, far too keen to get involved in things outside football and it's all about Mourinho and not the football or the club.

His treatment of Shaw is utterly toxic. He may have tried putting an arm around him and he's already tried openly referring to him in the media - neither has worked. If he can't get him playing the way he wants, or if he doesn't rate him then he should drop him, let the player move on and get on with his job. Picking on a 22 year old so openly - especially when there are other's not performing is likely to lead to conflict with the players. Whether you believe it or not, listening to 5Live last night Ian Wright suggested he's heard that some players at United aren't happy about it. I take what I hear in the press for what it is but it wouldn't, in my view, be a surprising revelation if senior pros defended a young player.

This could go the same way as it did at Chelsea if he starts alienating the dressing room.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I was just watching an ESPN clip and they had Alysson Rudd from The Times on talking and she made a point I havent heard anyone else make before. Maybe someone has and I missed it.

It was ridiculous. Three journalists playing amateur psychologists.

 

[Adebesi]

It was ridiculous. Three journalists playing amateur psychologists.

I thought it was interesting in the sense of being a bit different to the other commentary I have seen on this. And Ive seen a lot. It all gets a bit repetitive. But yes, on its own merits it wasnt great.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know if people have made that point but since 2004 Mourinho has never joined a club where the locker room wasn't already led by veteran leaders, United is the first team in that case. I think that we could use that to mitigate the issues and understand that he might need to adjust and find answers to problems that he has never faced.

 

[BusbyMalone]

At the risk of playing amateur psychologist myself, he clearly hasn't really been THAT happy since he's joined the club. In my opinion, anyway, he's just lost a spark that he always used to have. He's always been a bit of a miserable fecker, but there was this cheeky/mischievous side to him. That hasn't really been apparent at United, and considering this was his dream job, it's a little odd. I don't think he's particularly adhered himself towards the fans or the club in general as i just don't get that connection. It's very much HIM and HIS legacy.

Every time i see him he just has a face like a smacked arse. I'm not saying that he should walk around grinning like Coco the clown, but for feck sake he's like the grim reaper. Part of the reason (amongst others) why i just really don't like the bloke and just don't connect with him in anyway.

 

[clarkydaz]

At the risk of playing amateur psychologist myself, he clearly hasn't really been THAT happy since he's joined the club. In my opinion, anyway, he's just lost a spark that he always used to have. He's always been a bit of a miserable fecker, but there was this cheeky/mischievous side to him. That hasn't really been apparent at United, and considering this was his dream job, it's a little odd. I don't think he's particularly adhered himself towards the fans or the club in general as i just don't get that connection. It's very much HIM and HIS legacy.

Every time i see him he just has a face like a smacked arse. I'm not saying that he should walk around grinning like Coco the clown, but for feck sake he's like the grim reaper. Part of the reason (amongst others) why i just really don't like the bloke and just don't connect with him in anyway.

i think a lot has to do with the Chelsea collapse and of course the Eva situation. Chelsea was his castle which he was hounded out of, and the media and public all turned on him regarding the physio incident. Even if he was disliked on the continent, the British press still loved him, until that point

 

[BusbyMalone]

i think a lot has to do with the Chelsea collapse and of course the Eva situation. Chelsea was his castle which he was hounded out of, and the media and public all turned on him regarding the physio incident. Even if he was disliked on the continent, the British press still loved him, until that point

Could very well be. Just thought he would put that shit behind him when he came here, considering this was meant to be his "dream job"
Certainly doesn't seem that way at the moment.

 

[redIndianDevil]

i think a lot has to do with the Chelsea collapse and of course the Eva situation. Chelsea was his castle which he was hounded out of, and the media and public all turned on him regarding the physio incident. Even if he was disliked on the continent, the British press still loved him, until that point

He probably should have thought about going after a doctor for doing her job FFS, plus the players would hardly support Mourinho when the said doctor is the one who worries about the physical well being of them.

 

[Santoryo]

It's just how his personality works. When things are going fine and he's being praised, he's all good and charismatic even - but the moment he perceives any criticism of his methods or whatever, he then turns toxic because he cannot handle said criticism, and that imho is the crux of the problem. Unfortunately for us, his inability to accept that he might be wrong from time to time, means that he'll resort to any means (even if bad for the club), to ensure that criticism is shifted away from him.

Which is quite ironic given the guy loves criticising everyone else. He has no problem publicly bullying and humiliating a 22 year old lad and shit on him constantly.

What is even more chuckle worthy is the fact that you see all these Jose apologists and vivid supporters berate Shaw for being a snowflake who can't handle "a bit" of criticism when their guy is the most allergic to them and would have embarrassing meltdowns at the slightest bit of criticisms directed at him.

 

[Santoryo]

I don't know if people have made that point but since 2004 Mourinho has never joined a club where the locker room wasn't already led by veteran leaders, United is the first team in that case. I think that we could use that to mitigate the issues and understand that he might need to adjust and find answers to problems that he has never faced.

Well this point is rendered mute by the simple fact that at both Madrid and Chelsea he still managed to have meltdowns and locker rooms issues despite the presence of veteran leaders.

 

[JPRouve]

Well this point is rendered mute by the simple fact that at both Madrid and Chelsea he still managed to have meltdowns and locker rooms issues despite the presence of veteran leaders.

It's only mute if you focus on a supposed meltdown. My point is about the locker room having the right mentality to follow him during his first years which has always been the case, the meltdowns that happen later are mainly due to his habit to create an underdog mentality that over time gets on the players' nerves.

 

[Witchking]

Here's why I feel Jose is feeling the pressure of paying attacking football and is trying to change the media narrative.

The style and performance against Brighton is exactly how united have played majority of the season.

Misplaced passes, bypassing the midfield, Lukaku as the front man getting to win the ball in the air to start the attack. Brighton having majority of the chances and passing through united's midfield with ease.

Jose's theory is that you can make mistakes with the ball so let the opposition have the ball and defend resolutely.

This worked against Liverpool and Chelsea and he will continue doing this against all big teams because he likes negating the opposition rather than playing to your strengths.

This failed against sevilla. Then suddenly after Brighton's match he lays into the team about how he worked on the attacking options and no one bothered to perform them in the match.

So now he tries to tell the world that he is asking the team to attack but they are failing to live up to the pressure of wearing the United jersey.

Earlier he was quite happy to just defend and play hoofball to win. So the continued media pressure is playing in his mind and he is trying to clear his name. Small time actually.

Whoever leaves the club or comes in, until we change the mindset that having the ball will force you to make mistakes, we will never improve the standard of our play.

For united, majority of matches against the big teams and crunch quarters, semi finals against others will always depend of United finishing the one or two counter attacks they get all game with minimal possession and hoping that the defence soaks up the pressure.

 

[Manchester Dan]

I love a Mourinho hate in I really do, I have never liked him as a manager despite accepting he’s effective, but I do think it’s going a little overboard in places. He’s under immense pressure to win major trophies in the next few years and it’s showing, that’s about it, but he’s not suddenly an average manager. He stills sits above Klopp, Poch and Conte in the league at the moment, 3 excellent managers, and had Pep not turned City into a run away train this season he’d actually be in a title race. Many would have called that progress.

Unfortunately for him this is a sport made for comparisons and he’s falling fowl of being compared to Pep, because the narrative fits. The same way City are having an outstanding season by any standard yet seem to take a fair share of verbal beatings as soon as comparisons to Barcelona are made. Fans are obsessed because comparisons provide overall context, but in this case I think it’s harsh simply because of how well his benchmark is performing, it’s an anomaly.

I think Mourinho has a fair chance of success at United, he could well turn you into an 85-90 points a season side which would be excellent. All that will change how he is remembered is whether City then become an 80-85 or 90-95 points a season side themselves. Peps equally capable of the latter, but that wouldn’t take away from Mourinho turning you into a top outfit once again, it just means he’s no longer deemed as success garaunteed.

 

[Rajma]

Here's why I feel Jose is feeling the pressure of paying attacking football and is trying to change the media narrative.

The style and performance against Brighton is exactly how united have played majority of the season.

Misplaced passes, bypassing the midfield, Lukaku as the front man getting to win the ball in the air to start the attack. Brighton having majority of the chances and passing through united's midfield with ease.

Jose's theory is that you can make mistakes with the ball so let the opposition have the ball and defend resolutely.

This worked against Liverpool and Chelsea and he will continue doing this against all big teams because he likes negating the opposition rather than playing to your strengths.

This failed against sevilla. Then suddenly after Brighton's match he lays into the team about how he worked on the attacking options and no one bothered to perform them in the match.

So now he tries to tell the world that he is asking the team to attack but they are failing to live up to the pressure of wearing the United jersey.

Earlier he was quite happy to just defend and play hoofball to win. So the continued media pressure is playing in his mind and he is trying to clear his name. Small time actually.

Whoever leaves the club or comes in, until we change the mindset that having the ball will force you to make mistakes, we will never improve the standard of our play.

For united, majority of matches against the big teams and crunch quarters, semi finals against others will always depend of United finishing the one or two counter attacks they get all game with minimal possession and hoping that the defence soaks up the pressure.

He’s been drilling into players to bypass first stations for two years (CBs not allowed to pass between the lines to find a CM, meaning that one midfielder have to drop very deep to collect the ball unmarked making us incredibly static, predictable and outnumbered in all areas of the pitch, hence the hoofing) and all of the sudden after two days of training the blame lies with the players and not him. Comedy gold.

 

[RORY65]

He’s been drilling into players to bypass first stations for two years (CBs not allowed to pass between the lines to find a CM, meaning that one midfielder have to drop very deep to collect the ball unmarked making us incredibly static, predictable and outnumbered in all areas of the pitch, hence the hoofing) and all of the sudden after two days of training the blame lies with the players and not him. Comedy gold.

There seems to be an idea on here that he will buy a couple of attacking full backs and change everything up, despite Maicon arguably being the only attack minded full back who has excelled under him (he often preferred Coentrao over Marcelo and managed to make Ashley Cole look average) while numerous defensive full backs have (Gallas, Chivu, Arbeloa, Ivanovic, Azpilicueta, Valencia etc.) been really good under him, but that just seems ludicrous. If he came in for pre-season and told the squad he now wanted to play a free-flowing passing game with the full backs bombing on, they would surely think he was taking the piss.

It all comes down to the issue that a lot of people wanted Mourinho but didn't want him to be himself, believing the United job would somehow change him. He would somehow start playing a more coherent attacking game, be more successful at developing youngsters and would rein in the negative discourse and mouthing off to the media yet still retain everything that made him a great manager (regardless of what happens at United he will go down as one of the best ever). Even though I didn't want him or his style of play or management, maybe he should have just come in and made it clear he was going to do it his way and the way that has worked for him rather than trying to curb his natural tendencies (good and bad).

 

[Jonczz]

So it takes a city fan to find a rational opinion on this board these days

 

[Park's Petrified Pooch]

He’s been drilling into players to bypass first stations for two years (CBs not allowed to pass between the lines to find a CM, meaning that one midfielder have to drop very deep to collect the ball unmarked making us incredibly static, predictable and outnumbered in all areas of the pitch, hence the hoofing) and all of the sudden after two days of training the blame lies with the players and not him. Comedy gold.

This post is wrong. This bolded part doesn’t even make sense in the general context of the point you’re attempting to make. The idea is that the defenders are the ones who make the passes. Their inability to do this, is the reason we look so static and tumescent. In every Mourinho team, a minimum of one of the centre backs and both full backs were very comfortable making these key passes, allowing the team to get on the front foot and transition then at pace with two or three opponents effectively out of the game. For example, first station at Madrid was often Khedira/Diarra and Pepe. Basically sacrificial lambs who would begin to show, attract the press and then Ramos, Carvalho or Marcelo would play the longer ball to Ozil, Alonso, whoever. The names are unimportant.

Our issue is that neither the defenders themselves, nor the midfield in front of them trust that the pass will be made (because whenever they try it they simple smash it in the general direction of the opposition goal) So the midfield drop to attempt it. By this time, the opponent doesn’t even need to press to rapidly win back the ball and stop transition, as they’re already back in shape.

When we attempt to do, Matic drops to play the pass, making Pogba / whoever the sacrificial lamb. So the player we want to receive the longer pass (the link) is out of the game and we’re left with our forward line attempting to be the link and effect the transition. Not Lukaku’s specialty really. Nor Rashford or Martial’s. Lingard is ok at it when he plays as is Mata. But they’re both on the right. So regardless of how we want to do it, it goes too slowly in the first place making it ineffective. Or alternatively it doesn’t work at all, as the pass is being played by people with little to no ability to pass. Or if, and it’s a big if, the press is garbage and too slow, allowing us to get it right. It still only works on one side, and teams know this so double up on that side, safe in the knowledge that the left players will always be very wide and can be covered off.

This got too long, sorry. Explaining tactics is wordy...

 

[Rajma]

So it takes a city fan to find a rational opinion on this board these days

You don’t see Liverpool and Spurs fans turning on their managers even though they’re worse off league position wise at this stage, tried asking yourself why? City have nothing to do with it as Sevilla tie have shown.

 

[wolvored]

I was just watching an ESPN clip and they had Alysson Rudd from The Times on talking and she made a point I havent heard anyone else make before. Maybe someone has and I missed it.

But she reckons Mourinho is struggling with the death of his father. That it has hit him really hard and deprived him of his sense of control. And now he is kind of losing the plot.

fascinating theory, I thought. Not sure if I agree with it. Its one of those things, I dont know whether I am in a position to agree or disagree with it, really, without knowing the man personally, or at least a bit more about the circumstances of the situation.

The whole thing then evolves into a broader discussion about mental health in football and how managers (and players) cope with the extreme pressure they are under.

Its here for anyone who is interested. The bit I refer to starts around 4.10 though there is a lead up to that specific comment. But the whole thing is about Mourinho and whether he has lost his magic touch, so relevant for this discussion.

Load of bollocks he goes like this every club he manages

 

[Tyrion]

I've always rated Mourinho and was an advocate of him getting the job here after Fergie left. He's evidently improved the team and could continue to do so going forward.

I personally don't like the football we're currently playing. I don't hold with the idea that Mourinho has always set up his teams to be tactically defensive. Some of his sides have been good to watch. He has a habit of setting up "tight" sides in big games - something Fergie also did, albeit to less of an extent, but I can live with that given that historically, title winning sides are those that take points from those big games against the other top sides over a season. That said, at the moment the whole thing seems horrendously disjointed even against average sides. We're too slow, there is no pressing, the whole thing is tumescent and uninspiring. We can't control games and talented attacking players look "blunted". His style looks like it may be becoming outdated and I'm not sure he knows how to fix the obvious problems we have.

In light of how well City are playing, and given the football an element of the United fans (and most of the press) seem to "expect" his style at the moment will be acceptable when we win but criticised as soon as we don't. In my opinion that won't change since its become the accepted line.

His personality is the big problem though. He seems overly sensitive given recent outbursts. He's clearly hugely concerned by what is being written about him in the press. He is, in my opinion, far too keen to get involved in things outside football and it's all about Mourinho and not the football or the club.

His treatment of Shaw is utterly toxic. He may have tried putting an arm around him and he's already tried openly referring to him in the media - neither has worked. If he can't get him playing the way he wants, or if he doesn't rate him then he should drop him, let the player move on and get on with his job. Picking on a 22 year old so openly - especially when there are other's not performing is likely to lead to conflict with the players. Whether you believe it or not, listening to 5Live last night Ian Wright suggested he's heard that some players at United aren't happy about it. I take what I hear in the press for what it is but it wouldn't, in my view, be a surprising revelation if senior pros defended a young player.

This could go the same way as it did at Chelsea if he starts alienating the dressing room.

I agree with every world of this. For all the criticism, he has improved the team and managers who've received more praise over the last 2 seasons like Conte, Pochetino and Klopp are behind him in the league. But his tactics in the Sevilla game and his reaction since have been so toxic there's no clear reason to think something good can come from it.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I love a Mourinho hate in I really do, I have never liked him as a manager despite accepting he’s effective, but I do think it’s going a little overboard in places. He’s under immense pressure to win major trophies in the next few years and it’s showing, that’s about it, but he’s not suddenly an average manager. He stills sits above Klopp, Poch and Conte in the league at the moment, 3 excellent managers, and had Pep not turned City into a run away train this season he’d actually be in a title race. Many would have called that progress.

Unfortunately for him this is a sport made for comparisons and he’s falling fowl of being compared to Pep, because the narrative fits. The same way City are having an outstanding season by any standard yet seem to take a fair share of verbal beatings as soon as comparisons to Barcelona are made. Fans are obsessed because comparisons provide overall context, but in this case I think it’s harsh simply because of how well his benchmark is performing, it’s an anomaly.

I think Mourinho has a fair chance of success at United, he could well turn you into an 85-90 points a season side which would be excellent. All that will change how he is remembered is whether City then become an 80-85 or 90-95 points a season side themselves. Peps equally capable of the latter, but that wouldn’t take away from Mourinho turning you into a top outfit once again, it just means he’s no longer deemed as success garaunteed.

Excellent post.

You guys really are ruining it for us this season...

 

[redIndianDevil]

This post is wrong. This bolded part doesn’t even make sense in the general context of the point you’re attempting to make. The idea is that the defenders are the ones who make the passes. Their inability to do this, is the reason we look so static and tumescent. In every Mourinho team, a minimum of one of the centre backs and both full backs were very comfortable making these key passes, allowing the team to get on the front foot and transition then at pace with two or three opponents effectively out of the game. For example, first station at Madrid was often Khedira/Diarra and Pepe. Basically sacrificial lambs who would begin to show, attract the press and then Ramos, Carvalho or Marcelo would play the longer ball to Ozil, Alonso, whoever. The names are unimportant.

Our issue is that neither the defenders themselves, nor the midfield in front of them trust that the pass will be made (because whenever they try it they simple smash it in the general direction of the opposition goal) So the midfield drop to attempt it. By this time, the opponent doesn’t even need to press to rapidly win back the ball and stop transition, as they’re already back in shape.

When we attempt to do, Matic drops to play the pass, making Pogba / whoever the sacrificial lamb. So the player we want to receive the longer pass (the link) is out of the game and we’re left with our forward line attempting to be the link and effect the transition. Not Lukaku’s specialty really. Nor Rashford or Martial’s. Lingard is ok at it when he plays as is Mata. But they’re both on the right. So regardless of how we want to do it, it goes too slowly in the first place making it ineffective. Or alternatively it doesn’t work at all, as the pass is being played by people with little to no ability to pass. Or if, and it’s a big if, the press is garbage and too slow, allowing us to get it right. It still only works on one side, and teams know this so double up on that side, safe in the knowledge that the left players will always be very wide and can be covered off.

This got too long, sorry. Explaining tactics is wordy...

The bold part is utter bull. Our defenders were capable of making passes during the tenure of LvG because that was what expected of them by the manager and they hoof it now because thats what Mourinho has instructed them to do.

Besides defenders playing out from the back is hardly a problem for us as most of the teams we face sit back deep and hardly ever press up the pitch. Our problems against those weaker teams is due to our poor and slow passing in the final third of the pitch. Against slightly better teams or teams that press Mourinho has always forced our teams to play the long ball.

 

[L1nk]

The bold part is utter bull. Our defenders were capable of making passes during the tenure of LvG because that was what expected of them by the manager and they hoof it now because thats what Mourinho has instructed them to do.

Besides defenders playing out from the back is hardly a problem for us as most of the teams we face sit back deep and hardly ever press up the pitch. Our problems against those weaker teams is due to our poor and slow passing in the final third of the pitch. Against slightly better teams or teams that press Mourinho has always forced our teams to play the long ball.

Pretty much correct. People seem to forget what actually happened during LVG's tenure because of the boring nature of the football, but look at the difference between say Moyes, Mourinho and him, through all of them you could recognise the most that we played a certain way under LVG, a system was in place, people didn't like it because it was boring and often soul wrenching, but it was there, the team played a certain way and that was down to LVG. We passed a lot and the defenders played out from the back, could we of done with better ball playing defenders? Sure, but they could do it. Now, all of a sudden we play this way and everyone believes well clearly it's not cause of Mourinho all the players are just to crap for his godlike system to really work, make no mistake, we play the way we do because Mourinho is instructing them to play that way, he hasn't said a damn thing all season about the team ignoring his instructions, even when we lost before he would often dish out some praise in some form or another, so whats the difference between now and then? I'll tell you what it is, the difference now is that after so many months of negative performances it all came to a head at Sevilla because his instructions on how he set up the team to play were called into question on a more public space for a tie we should of easily won over 2 legs, so he got criticised personally for it, you see, this is the difference, he was personally criticised for his tactics, hence the absolute meltdown and the throwing of his entire squad under the bus, saying he inherited shit despite claiming he loved the squad he had for months beforehand, he belittles the club and Fergusons achievements. He can't take the criticism or can't accept the fact he got it wrong and has been getting in wrong more frequently than usual, how anyone isn't seeing this is beyond me considering he has a know history of doing it, how can you honestly say well i've been instructing them for 2 days on attacking and they didn't do it, i mean, 2 days of attacking after what must be nothing but negative play style most of the season, it's no wonder it wasn't all good, and don't try and convince me he's been doing it all season the players have just ignored his attacking teaching all season because it's bull and you know it. Open your eyes to the slow acting poison this man is circulating throughout the club and realise it's better to cut the cord now before things become irreperably damaged, like selling our future away in Martial and Pogba for example, which should be not be happening because the ego of a man who's only gonna be here for a max of another 2 seasons is bruised a little. Sorry, not having it, i support the club, not Mourinho and the circus he brings with him everywhere he goes.

 

[TsuWave]

all these reports of bust-ups

 

[Kapardin]

all these reports of bust-ups

Its' like the media have forgotten we are 2nd and in the FA Cup SF and have just assumed we are 10th and Jose is having a melt-down. Sevilla game was a boon for them to start spreading their agendas.

 

[NK86]

I love a Mourinho hate in I really do, I have never liked him as a manager despite accepting he’s effective, but I do think it’s going a little overboard in places. He’s under immense pressure to win major trophies in the next few years and it’s showing, that’s about it, but he’s not suddenly an average manager. He stills sits above Klopp, Poch and Conte in the league at the moment, 3 excellent managers, and had Pep not turned City into a run away train this season he’d actually be in a title race. Many would have called that progress.

Unfortunately for him this is a sport made for comparisons and he’s falling fowl of being compared to Pep, because the narrative fits. The same way City are having an outstanding season by any standard yet seem to take a fair share of verbal beatings as soon as comparisons to Barcelona are made. Fans are obsessed because comparisons provide overall context, but in this case I think it’s harsh simply because of how well his benchmark is performing, it’s an anomaly.

I think Mourinho has a fair chance of success at United, he could well turn you into an 85-90 points a season side which would be excellent. All that will change how he is remembered is whether City then become an 80-85 or 90-95 points a season side themselves. Peps equally capable of the latter, but that wouldn’t take away from Mourinho turning you into a top outfit once again, it just means he’s no longer deemed as success garaunteed.

No one is upset because City is ahead as this season has been phenomenal for them. However our general standard of play and the performance specifically against Sevilla has got a lot of people on the edge of their patience with our style of football. Suddenly everyone trying to justify Mourinho are airing his views that it's either results or performance, when in reality every true European powerhouse plays excellent football and wins games with them too.

 

[Kapardin]

I love a Mourinho hate in I really do, I have never liked him as a manager despite accepting he’s effective, but I do think it’s going a little overboard in places. He’s under immense pressure to win major trophies in the next few years and it’s showing, that’s about it, but he’s not suddenly an average manager. He stills sits above Klopp, Poch and Conte in the league at the moment, 3 excellent managers, and had Pep not turned City into a run away train this season he’d actually be in a title race. Many would have called that progress.

Unfortunately for him this is a sport made for comparisons and he’s falling fowl of being compared to Pep, because the narrative fits. The same way City are having an outstanding season by any standard yet seem to take a fair share of verbal beatings as soon as comparisons to Barcelona are made. Fans are obsessed because comparisons provide overall context, but in this case I think it’s harsh simply because of how well his benchmark is performing, it’s an anomaly.

I think Mourinho has a fair chance of success at United, he could well turn you into an 85-90 points a season side which would be excellent. All that will change how he is remembered is whether City then become an 80-85 or 90-95 points a season side themselves. Peps equally capable of the latter, but that wouldn’t take away from Mourinho turning you into a top outfit once again, it just means he’s no longer deemed as success garaunteed.

Ironic that one of the more sensible posts about our manager and our club comes from a City fan. I agree with what you say, we might not ever achieve poetic perfection under Jose, but he will definitely steady us. At the very least, we will be a regular Top 3 and CL Ro16 club under him while winning some trophies along the way, if he is judged to have ultimately failed in his job.

 

[Park's Petrified Pooch]

The bold part is utter bull. Our defenders were capable of making passes during the tenure of LvG because that was what expected of them by the manager and they hoof it now because thats what Mourinho has instructed them to do.

Besides defenders playing out from the back is hardly a problem for us as most of the teams we face sit back deep and hardly ever press up the pitch. Our problems against those weaker teams is due to our poor and slow passing in the final third of the pitch. Against slightly better teams or teams that press Mourinho has always forced our teams to play the long ball.

Congratulations on completely missing the point. Under LVG they were still not capable of making the difficult pass that bypasses the press. They made the easy 5-10 yard pass to the next man in the pattern. It was slow. It was simple. We didn’t often get pressed high, because no one needed to. We were not a team that threatened. I think people’s dislike of Mourinho is blinding them to a wider issue. Either that or they’re not that tactically minded. Once you start throwing around words like poison, it just gets pointless to debate. Minds have been made up and that’s that.

As for the second part. When teams don’t press a Mourinho team the method is the same, just higher up. It requires one of the centre backs to break the line by moving forward with the ball and drawing in 1 or more of the opposing midfield. Effectively, you have to trigger the press by causing panic. This creates space for the winger to receive a sharp pass in a forward position. This engages the full back and options start to become available. Ideally the fullback on that side for us would then be overlapping. Not necessarily to receive the pass, just to create the space and drawn more defenders.

At Porto he had Carvalho who was excellent at this. Chelsea, Terry. Etc. Our issue is no-one can play the pass and no-one can break the line to trigger the press. Not our centre backs and not even our full backs.

Reading some of the stuff on the Caf over the last couple of years, it’s like people have never seen a Mourinho team. Is it spectacular and exhilarating? God no. Did I want him at the club? Not for a minute, as I didn’t think he’d be good for us. But he’s doing a decent job. The team is improving and so I’m happier than I was under Moyes and certainly than under LVG.

 

[Giggsyking]

Mourinho on one side and Pogba, Martial, Shaw, etc on the other. Ed would be stupid to choose the coward one's side.

 

[Garethw]

Pretty much correct. People seem to forget what actually happened during LVG's tenure because of the boring nature of the football, but look at the difference between say Moyes, Mourinho and him, through all of them you could recognise the most that we played a certain way under LVG, a system was in place, people didn't like it because it was boring and often soul wrenching, but it was there, the team played a certain way and that was down to LVG. We passed a lot and the defenders played out from the back, could we of done with better ball playing defenders? Sure, but they could do it. Now, all of a sudden we play this way and everyone believes well clearly it's not cause of Mourinho all the players are just to crap for his godlike system to really work, make no mistake, we play the way we do because Mourinho is instructing them to play that way, he hasn't said a damn thing all season about the team ignoring his instructions, even when we lost before he would often dish out some praise in some form or another, so whats the difference between now and then? I'll tell you what it is, the difference now is that after so many months of negative performances it all came to a head at Sevilla because his instructions on how he set up the team to play were called into question on a more public space for a tie we should of easily won over 2 legs, so he got criticised personally for it, you see, this is the difference, he was personally criticised for his tactics, hence the absolute meltdown and the throwing of his entire squad under the bus, saying he inherited shit despite claiming he loved the squad he had for months beforehand, he belittles the club and Fergusons achievements. He can't take the criticism or can't accept the fact he got it wrong and has been getting in wrong more frequently than usual, how anyone isn't seeing this is beyond me considering he has a know history of doing it, how can you honestly say well i've been instructing them for 2 days on attacking and they didn't do it, i mean, 2 days of attacking after what must be nothing but negative play style most of the season, it's no wonder it wasn't all good, and don't try and convince me he's been doing it all season the players have just ignored his attacking teaching all season because it's bull and you know it. Open your eyes to the slow acting poison this man is circulating throughout the club and realise it's better to cut the cord now before things become irreperably damaged, like selling our future away in Martial and Pogba for example, which should be not be happening because the ego of a man who's only gonna be here for a max of another 2 seasons is bruised a little. Sorry, not having it, i support the club, not Mourinho and the circus he brings with him everywhere he goes.

Very well summed up my friend.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Congratulations on completely missing the point. Under LVG they were still not capable of making the difficult pass that bypasses the press. They made the easy 5-10 yard pass to the next man in the pattern. It was slow. It was simple. We didn’t often get pressed high, because no one needed to. We were not a team that threatened. I think people’s dislike of Mourinho is blinding them to a wider issue. Either that or they’re not that tactically minded. Once you start throwing around words like poison, it just gets pointless to debate. Minds have been made up and that’s that.

As for the second part. When teams don’t press a Mourinho team the method is the same, just higher up. It requires one of the centre backs to break the line by moving forward with the ball and drawing in 1 or more of the opposing midfield. Effectively, you have to trigger the press by causing panic. This creates space for the winger to receive a sharp pass in a forward position. This engages the full back and options start to become available. Ideally the fullback on that side for us would then be overlapping. Not necessarily to receive the pass, just to create the space and drawn more defenders.

At Porto he had Carvalho who was excellent at this. Chelsea, Terry. Etc. Our issue is no-one can play the pass and no-one can break the line to trigger the press. Not our centre backs and not even our full backs.

Reading some of the stuff on the Caf over the last couple of years, it’s like people have never seen a Mourinho team. Is it spectacular and exhilarating? God no. Did I want him at the club? Not for a minute, as I didn’t think he’d be good for us. But he’s doing a decent job. The team is improving and so I’m happier than I was under Moyes and certainly than under LVG.

I don't think the CBs you describe even exist right now in the transfer window, this season City's defenders usually keep a very high line and even they don't make the passes you describe, they just make the 5-10 yard passes to the midifelders.

 

[Park's Petrified Pooch]

I don't think the CBs you describe even exist right now in the transfer window, this season City's defenders usually keep a very high line and even they don't make the passes you describe, they just make the 5-10 yard passes to the midifelders.

You don’t think there are defenders capable of making hard, fast, incisive 20-30 yard passes? Or committing opponents by stepping out in possession? Vertonghen, Azpilicueta, Stones. Leicester have got Mcguire doing it. Every team has one of the centre backs doing it. And a large number of the fullbacks in the league are capable of it. City and Spurs entire game is based around any one of the back four can do it. It’s one of the reasons why Spurs have at times looked less effective with Sánchez than they were with Alderweireld.

The fact that our defenders either can’t or won’t do this is damning on them unsocial LG and us as a club for collecting such relatively low skilled set of players.

As for the quote about City and their high line. This season they have rarely been pressed I agree. That’s more a consequence of how dominant they are and the fear teams have right off the bat. But they still have the centre backs or full backs stepping forward to break the lines, either centrally or wide. It’s how they create the panic and start drawing opponents out of position.

 

[Minimalist]

I was just watching an ESPN clip and they had Alysson Rudd from The Times on talking and she made a point I havent heard anyone else make before. Maybe someone has and I missed it.

But she reckons Mourinho is struggling with the death of his father. That it has hit him really hard and deprived him of his sense of control. And now he is kind of losing the plot.

fascinating theory, I thought. Not sure if I agree with it. Its one of those things, I dont know whether I am in a position to agree or disagree with it, really, without knowing the man personally, or at least a bit more about the circumstances of the situation.

The whole thing then evolves into a broader discussion about mental health in football and how managers (and players) cope with the extreme pressure they are under.

Its here for anyone who is interested. The bit I refer to starts around 4.10 though there is a lead up to that specific comment. But the whole thing is about Mourinho and whether he has lost his magic touch, so relevant for this discussion.

Isn't that the daft bint who claimed Jari Litmanen was the best player she's ever seen live (playing for Liverpool against fecking Villa)?

EDIT: Fecking is.

 

[Adebesi]

I did like Litmanen to be fair. And loved that Ajax team. But yeah, best player ever? No.

 

[Craig Ward]

I've always rated Mourinho and was an advocate of him getting the job here after Fergie left. He's evidently improved the team and could continue to do so going forward.

I personally don't like the football we're currently playing. I don't hold with the idea that Mourinho has always set up his teams to be tactically defensive. Some of his sides have been good to watch. He has a habit of setting up "tight" sides in big games - something Fergie also did, albeit to less of an extent, but I can live with that given that historically, title winning sides are those that take points from those big games against the other top sides over a season. That said, at the moment the whole thing seems horrendously disjointed even against average sides. We're too slow, there is no pressing, the whole thing is tumescent and uninspiring. We can't control games and talented attacking players look "blunted". His style looks like it may be becoming outdated and I'm not sure he knows how to fix the obvious problems we have.

In light of how well City are playing, and given the football an element of the United fans (and most of the press) seem to "expect" his style at the moment will be acceptable when we win but criticised as soon as we don't. In my opinion that won't change since its become the accepted line.

His personality is the big problem though. He seems overly sensitive given recent outbursts. He's clearly hugely concerned by what is being written about him in the press. He is, in my opinion, far too keen to get involved in things outside football and it's all about Mourinho and not the football or the club.

His treatment of Shaw is utterly toxic. He may have tried putting an arm around him and he's already tried openly referring to him in the media - neither has worked. If he can't get him playing the way he wants, or if he doesn't rate him then he should drop him, let the player move on and get on with his job. Picking on a 22 year old so openly - especially when there are other's not performing is likely to lead to conflict with the players. Whether you believe it or not, listening to 5Live last night Ian Wright suggested he's heard that some players at United aren't happy about it. I take what I hear in the press for what it is but it wouldn't, in my view, be a surprising revelation if senior pros defended a young player.

This could go the same way as it did at Chelsea if he starts alienating the dressing room.

Great post.

Its the Jose of old, he has form for this. He is way too opinionated and vocal in the press for all the wrong reasons.

He gets 2 seasons in, thinks the world is against him and turns the place sour.

He's on a spiral, singling players out (shaw), clearly an issue with pogba and he's had the odd dig at the board about money. Now I'm no elite level football manager, but he's had enough windows to rebuild this squad, and out of his signings he has made, bar Bailly & Matic I'm struggling to see any great success. And we are still playing Ashley Young left back. Name a top team across any European league that would take Ashley Young as they're 1st choice left back? None - he's not even a left back! And Fellaini looked so poor against Sevilla it was shambolic. Nzonzi and Benaga looked world class against us that game.

Frankly, I've been waiting for this since we appointed him.