Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with that at all. But when the lack of creativity, lack of urgency, lack of basics like passing and moving, making overlapping runs keep appearing.... it's a fault that lies with the manager. He has to correct it. He runs the training, the remedy sessions or whatever. We have been very very directionless in attack for a good while now. Leicester we were wasteful, but for the most part in the last few games we have been crap. We take so long to create so little. LVG football.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with that at all. But when the lack of creativity, lack of urgency, lack of basics like passing and moving, making overlapping runs keep appearing.... it's a fault that lies with the manager. He has to correct it. He runs the training, the remedy sessions or whatever. We have been very very directionless in attack for a good while now. Leicester we were wasteful, but for the most part in the last few games we have been crap. We take so long to create so little. LVG football.
I've been critical of Jose many times, including the last few days.
But we can still have a very good season or even an excellent one. CL title would be fantastic. A CL final and a top 4 place would be great. Top 4 and the FA cup would be very good. Still plenty to play for.
Yes, performances should get better. It's not impossible though.
Support Jose and the lads and see where United are come the end of the season.
But we can still have a very good season or even an excellent one. CL title would be fantastic. A CL final and a top 4 place would be great. Top 4 and the FA cup would be very good. Still plenty to play for.
Yes, performances should get better. It's not impossible though.
Support Jose and the lads and see where United are come the end of the season.
Whilst I agree, imagine how hard it must be to motivate the players. You basically have to convince them to give everything just to cement themselves as the second best team in England. I do think the players have lost some spirit, which is evident in our performances of late.
You're right, but let's not forget Jose's teams have been some of the best counter-attacking teams we've ever seen, and all those things you mentioned are extremely vital for counter-attacking teams. Movement off the ball, positioning, pace of the movement of the ball etc. are more important than when implementing any other tactic and I'd say that his Madrid team were the best I've ever seen at that. Whilst I accept some of the blame falls on his feet, of course it does, no matter what the circumstance, no matter the quality of the squad, he's the manager and it's his job to get things right. That being said, to simply say our performances this season (or lack of, recently) is purely down to his ability not to coach an attack is just lazy imo. He's proven his teams can play quality football, he's shown at his past clubs and has shown it on occasion here too. I find it hard to believe the improvement we've seen this season from us is purely down to luck and individual ability, you don't improve as much as you do just by taking into consideration those factors, especially when you consider we've been missing our best defender and midfielder for basically the majority of the season.
Yea those aspects of counter attacking football are missing, that’s my gripe. And they don’t only apply to counter offensive play. They are essential to any team looking to play an attacking game based on passing the ball. You keep mentioning our improvement but IMHO you might be forgetting that it’s a little premature to make a judgement call and slap the label “improvement” till we reach the end of the season. We’re not there yet and we are slipping fast.
You're absolutely right and if come the end of the season we slip out of the top four, he'd rightly most likely lose his job. It's a double sided coin though, we also can't really assume that the team will continue on a downward spiral until the end of the season.
What he showed in the past doesn't necessarily reflect the here and now or the future. Managers can lose their touch or get lazy.
Look at Wenger... does he look like a guy who managed a team with the likes of Henry or Viera or Adams etc
Managers have a sell by date.
Then he'd better start giving us some hope. Let's start with a convincing performance against Everton.edit: the players are looking like they don't give a shit and the season's over. That part I hold against him.
Wenger hasn't won anything of note in 20 years. Mourinho walked the league only two years ago. It's not even comparable. Jose might of lost his touch, but 5 or so games of bad performances/results isn't enough to really suggest that, is it? SAF had years were he struggled and underperformed too, but he always bounced back eventually. Mourinho has done it for nearly two decades, so who really knows.
edit: the players are looking like they don't give a shit and the season's over. That part I hold against him.
That I agree with. That being said, must be hard to motivate players who basically know the league is done.
How do the other managers do it then? Truth is there is still plenty to play for this season but a lot of our players look shot.
I didn't say it's impossible, I said it would be difficult. The expectations at other clubs aren't as high. Basically telling your players that one of their major goals for the season is unreachable would kill some confidence.
Dinosaur tactics. I was going to make a thread, but here goes instead.
Defence: The most important part of the Mourinho team, but also what affects us the most.
As a team, we set up so much to not concede that I think it works against us. When we have the ball, our defence gets passed the half way line. It looks positive for sure, but when we lose the ball deep in the oppositions half, our defence retreats back quicker than Usain Bolt. It leaves huge gaps between defence and midfield. The amount of times the opposition plays long balls and it always ends up in a counter attack situation. Shane Long was a perfect situation the other day. A long ball that lands to an opposition in space who then has time to turn and run.
We invite so much pressure on ourselves in defence because of this. Better players take advantage.
Attack: We defend deep, which means we often win the ball back deep. We give the opposition plenty of time to get in their positions, form 2 solid banks of 4. We are then left with trying to break down a side that is compact and taking up space. At this point, breaking a team down isn't easy. Adding to the difficulties is that it seems Mourinho doesn't want to commit. He doesn't seem to allow runners. Apart from Lukaku and whoever is on the left, it seems nobody ventures passed the ball. Players stay in line or behind the ball, keeping shape and being as defensive as possible on attack.
This for me is the reason we are so blunt going forward. Everybody plays so conservative. (Apart from Lingard to be fair).
People mention our attack is terrible etc, but think about this for a second
We need to see the wing backs bombing forward, pulling the opposition wide players out of position. We need a more creative number 10. Have Pogba run beyond, take out the marker who then gives our creative player time.
We have the exact opposite.
We are so rigid that Mourinho cares more about not conceding. He doesn't want players taking risks.
What Mourinho needs is an on form Hazard type player who performs some individual brilliance that wins them the game.
The on form Hazard season won the the league
The off form Hazard season got him sacked in mid table.
We should be a team that goes into matches playing our game, but we are more worried about what the opposition are going to do.
Klopp, Poch and Pep play their games no matter what.
Defence: The most important part of the Mourinho team, but also what affects us the most.
As a team, we set up so much to not concede that I think it works against us. When we have the ball, our defence gets passed the half way line. It looks positive for sure, but when we lose the ball deep in the oppositions half, our defence retreats back quicker than Usain Bolt. It leaves huge gaps between defence and midfield. The amount of times the opposition plays long balls and it always ends up in a counter attack situation. Shane Long was a perfect situation the other day. A long ball that lands to an opposition in space who then has time to turn and run.
We invite so much pressure on ourselves in defence because of this. Better players take advantage.
Attack: We defend deep, which means we often win the ball back deep. We give the opposition plenty of time to get in their positions, form 2 solid banks of 4. We are then left with trying to break down a side that is compact and taking up space. At this point, breaking a team down isn't easy. Adding to the difficulties is that it seems Mourinho doesn't want to commit. He doesn't seem to allow runners. Apart from Lukaku and whoever is on the left, it seems nobody ventures passed the ball. Players stay in line or behind the ball, keeping shape and being as defensive as possible on attack.
This for me is the reason we are so blunt going forward. Everybody plays so conservative. (Apart from Lingard to be fair).
People mention our attack is terrible etc, but think about this for a second
- Lukaku: proven goal scorer in this league
- Martial: Golden boy winner
- Rashford: 2nd and 3rd place in the Golden boy awards
- Pogba: Golden boy winner, world team of the year
- Mkhi: Before joining us, most assists in the Bundes and probably the best player that year
- Mata: Didn't really take part, but is still a world cup winner
We need to see the wing backs bombing forward, pulling the opposition wide players out of position. We need a more creative number 10. Have Pogba run beyond, take out the marker who then gives our creative player time.
We have the exact opposite.
We are so rigid that Mourinho cares more about not conceding. He doesn't want players taking risks.
What Mourinho needs is an on form Hazard type player who performs some individual brilliance that wins them the game.
The on form Hazard season won the the league
The off form Hazard season got him sacked in mid table.
We should be a team that goes into matches playing our game, but we are more worried about what the opposition are going to do.
Klopp, Poch and Pep play their games no matter what.
Not entirely true since he has won the league back in 2004. He also won few of them FA Cup winner trophies as well.
14 years, apologies.
Also I wouldn't consider the FA cup a major honour. It's nice to win as a bonus, but I'd put it in the tier 2 level, along with other trophies such as the Europa.It would appear Jose has won back the dressing room after losing it in December after winning it in August.
You two need to go get your shinebox.
Hope that after this game Mourinho will understand that offense is the best defense. The more you have the ball at your feet and the more you're creating, the less the opponents have the ball and chances to harm you.
Props to Mourinho for deciding to ditch 4-2-3-1 and play 4-3-3 with Pogba relieved from his usual burden of excessive defensive duties.
If Mourinho can get the team playing like this all the time and against top opponents, then he should be allowed more funds to sign players.
Props to Mourinho for deciding to ditch 4-2-3-1 and play 4-3-3 with Pogba relieved from his usual burden of excessive defensive duties.
If Mourinho can get the team playing like this all the time and against top opponents, then he should be allowed more funds to sign players.
And you should get some reading lessons since I've stated what the pundits have said and wasn't voicing my own opinion.
This
I wouldnt hold my breath for him to stick to 4-3-3. He suddenly in recent years just loves 4-2-3-1 with number 10.
This is a way to go forward. But we're so thin in midfield right now. Where the hell is Fellaini? And Carrick won't be back this year?
Both 433 and 4231 have always been Jose's go to formations. That being said, do we have the personnel to do this formation against the top opposition consistently? We don't have a Pirlo or a Kroos, someone who can dictate the game from deep.
Much better today. Shame it took injury to our marquee signing for him to mix things up.
The moment I praise this guy he goes and does something stupid like bashing Scholes…
Once a bitter cnut, always a bitter cnut I guess.
Once a bitter cnut, always a bitter cnut I guess.
Watch the video.
I have seen the video. When asked about Scholes comments regarding Pogba not being the effective as he was in Juventus due to being played way too deep, comments about Pogba strolling around vs. Southampton and not looking fit (something most people saw and many addressed on this forum as well), Mourinho answered with some nonsense about it's not Pogba's fault that he made more money than Scholes and that Scholes isn't a manager. Also saying if Scholes is to become a manager if he had 25% of success Mourinho has had during his career, that it would be a good career.
Utter bullshiit from Mourinho.
So you’re choosing to focus on the two sentences where he was sticking up for his player and himself (using his typically arrogant wit) and ignore the other 2 or 3 minutes where he gushed over Scholes, called him a genius, said he was one of the best midfielders he has ever seen, thanked him for everything he had done for the club he works for and thanks him for having a role in forging the profile of the club that he is now benefitting from.
Scholes shit talked about a United player when the team is already low on confidence. The arrogance of certain ex players is infuriating. They were incredibly talented players, playing in incredibly talented teams under an incredibly talented manager. There was a winning culture at the club and the climate was perfect for winning.
That’s what Mourinho and his squad are working hard to replicate now and ex players like Scholes would do well to give them the oxygen to achieve that. I don’t see what getting on the back of an immensely talented 24 year old, who has been central to the best results and football this club has achieved since Ferguson left, after one poor game is going to achieve.
Do you think they used to beat down the precocious talent of Ronaldo any time he had one of those games where nothing quite came off for him? They watched him train every day and knew the effort he put in and how much better he played with his chin up so they let him grow.
Scholes could do his old club a favour and do the same now.
Scholes was well within his rights to criticize, and Mourinho was also well within his rights to reply back with a put-down, while recognizing Scholes' legacy.
Nothing to see here.
Nothing to see here.
He actually spent more time bashing than praising Scholes in that video.
Tell me something why did he felt the need to go after Scholes personally, why didn't he went after his comments regarding Pogba?
He could have just dismissed Scholes by saying "pundits are entitled to their own opinion, like everyone else" but he made a mistake and went after Scholes personally rather than trying to battle his comments.
Ok so you clearly haven’t seen the video so I’ll end this conversation here.
How convenient from you to dismiss my reply and end this discussion without even addressing the 2nd and 3rd part of my comment.
What’s the point when you’ve clearly not even seen the subject matter of the discussion?
Oh but I've seen it and after each praise he followed with some more bashing.
But as I said it's convenient for you to just try to spin it around.
The question he was asked had nothing to do with Pogba specifically, to answer your second question. On your third question, you're being naive if you genuinely think his finance comment was a direct attack at Scholes. Granted he could have chosen his words better and it could be interpreted as offensive, it was a response to his comment that the money they paid for Pogba should buy you game winners. He was saying that although Scholes was better than Pogba, he was still getting less money, that's just how the game is these days. It's why he kept going back to Scholes and how he is phenomenal.
There's always some secret message, some secret meaning that only the most die hard Mourinho admirers can see.
Laughable response, must be upsetting knowing your argument based on your upset feelings for Jose hold no credibility. Mourinho must have kept touching on Scholes being phenomenal because he felt like it, certainly has nothing to do with Scholes' comments (the thing you've been touching on this whole time, may I add) where he claimed that for that money you should get a match-winner.
I also bet you were fuming when SAF made worse comments against Neville, Keane etc.
Were you also not the one playing down Pep's physical abuse to Redmond a few weeks ago? I'll have to go back and have a look, certainly you couldn't be biased, could you?
Actually the laughable thing is how you keep trying to spin this as nothing considering that Mourinho choose not address points raised by Scholes but instead he went after Scholes saying the things he did. He had so many easy ways just to dismiss that reporter and Scholes altogether without having to say the things he said, but no he chose to do it.
When Mourinho throws his players under the buss, he's right. When Mourinho treats some players really bad even tho, he's right. When he has us playing some disgusting and spineless football, he's right. When he openly flort with other clubs, he's right. When he attacks one of the club's biggest legends, he's right.
In your opinion can he do any wrong?
Ah once again, completely detracting from the actual argument to whine about how some people actually support the Manchester United manager - this will be a fun one. Firstly, I already explained to you how he addressed the points, it's a post match press conference, not a Scholes Q&A, he's hardly going to be there dissecting every comment Scholes made. When the question was asked, Scholes' opinions wasn't even mentioned directly, it was about Pundit's and their opinions on his football.
He then spoke for quite a while, I may add, about how phenomenal Scholes was and how much he's done for United. He then changed to his Pogba comments, I really don't see why he would have started off with his respect for Scholes if, by your opinion, he was simply trying to attack Scholes. He spoke about how not everyone can be phenomenal like him, basically a dickhead way to say, ye you were great and Pogba might not be as good, but in this day and age they still get more money than you. I really don't know how else "not everyone can be as phenomenal as you" can be interpreted any other way. Yes, he could have been more sensitive and chosen his words better, but if a statement as simple as that genuinely offends you then I'm truly sorry. On his other 'attack' on Scholes - Jose had an opinion on his ability as a pundit and said he's a great player, doesn't think he's a great pundit. How is that expression of his opinion any different to what Scholes, or any fan or any other pundit does?
Also - throwing players under the bus is fine, I have no problem with Scholes' comments, everyone has opinions and can express them as they see fit. This argument has nothing to do with what Scholes' said, please stop putting words in my mouth, the argument is about this odd overreaction to comments that are most likely being taken out of context and if were made by just about any other manager, would be considered insignificant. Treating players harshly is hardly news, SAF did it, Pep has done it - all top managers do it to certain players. Disgusting and spineless football is basically objective, firstly and secondly I've never said it was right. I said the performance at Anfield was shite, I said the performance at City was shite too. I never said him flirting with PSG was right either, in fact I've never even commented on it, but if I was to, I'd say it was the wrong thing to do as it can unsettle teams. 'Attack' one of the club's biggest legends, give me a fecking break. At worst it's a valid comment said in a dickhead manner, at best it's literally a comment being taken out of context. Jesus Wept, if that is what you consider an attack we obviously have very different opinions on struggles. The guy has gone out of his way to basically offer ex players roles as coaches etc. under him at the club, he hardly has a vendetta against them.
Also on your final question - yes, I do. I think he could have spent the money he had available better, I think he could rotate the squad better, I think he could stop being so depressing at times too, there's many things I think he could improve on, I just don't go out of my way to try and blow minor things out of proportion to try and discredit him.
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As I said for some there's always some secret meaning and secret message in all of what Mourinho does.
He actually opened with "Scholes only criticises", but what is all that praise he said regarding Scholes as a player worth if he gonna proceed and bash Scholes for something that has nothing to do with what Scholes said? Money bullshiit and managerial success.
He was heading into right direction when he said "not everyone can be as phenomenal as Scholes" and "Paul tries his best" but he just couldn't keep it on that he had to take it to a personal level.
Tell me plain and simple was it a right or wrong from Mourinho go say those negative things he said about Scholes which also had nothing to do with the questions he was asked?
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