Unfortunately, the only players with good-decision making and good on the ball are Matic, Martial, Mata and that's it. Can't legislate for Rashford losing the ball with a minute to go or 5-6 clear chances we missed out. also our cb's shit the bed any time they have to play the ball. Jose can't make Smalling/Jones Beckenbauer or Baresi overnight. Guardiola can... by buying Stones or VVD. Thats the difference.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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Unfortunately, the only players with good-decision making and good on the ball are Matic, Martial, Mata and that's it. Can't legislate for Rashford losing the ball with a minute to go or 5-6 clear chances we missed out. also our cb's shit the bed any time they have to play the ball. Jose can't make Smalling/Jones Beckenbauer or Baresi overnight. Guardiola can... by buying Stones or VVD. Thats the difference.
Like I said amol, I know we’re doing better than everyone else bar City so far. So far being the key word. That’s why I said I believe that it will tell over the course of an entire season when rotations and injuries take their toll, meaning that the lack of a fundamental identity or principles of play will hurt us more or prevent us from winning anything because we rely so much on individualism. Maybe that’s why so many people are saying that we need to buy. But that really shouldn’t be the solution. We HAVE the players to implement a more effective offensive plan.
Your statement would be valid if the individual ability in our squad was so superior to those around us, it's simply not. Spurs have just as good an attack, with probably the best striker on the planet. Chelsea have Hazard who's the best player in the league at his best. Arsenal have Ozil and Sanchez who have been amongst the best players in football in their respective positions for years. Only one I'd really give you is Liverpool.
All that begs the questions, how do our rivals have less goals, less created chances and below us in the table despite having just as good, if not better players 'individually'. Not to add, the fact we've already experienced the injuries etc. you speak of, greatly too. Our best player has been unavailable for the majority of the season, in the most important games, yet we're still second in all those areas.
Speaking of what if's is just clutching to try and create an argument. What if we're not second, what if this, what if that. Fact of the matter is we've been first and second this whole season, we've passed the halfway point and we haven't fallen out yet. We've played all the same teams our rivals have and have done so for the most part without our best player and best defender in Bailly and Pogba. Maybe we're second because we're pretty good, rather than because we haven't been 'figured out yet'
I totally agree mate. In fact, every actual fan that I speak to in person agrees with that too. It’s only on here that you get crucified for daring to suggest that the manager has faults.
Edit: when I say actual fan, what I mean is a real person face to face.
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I used to believe that. But after the LCFC game (2-2 draw, against 10 men), I realise that our players do not have the mentality to attack AND defend.
In that game, we were playing end to end, which means that we were attacking them and when they get the ball, they attack us. What I saw, was our players shit their pants. When an opponent comes at us with passion, pace and power, our players cannot handle this.
So, if we were to attack a team which can attack us, I believe we will concede a lot of goals and lose many games.
Jose is a top manager and he has identified that we do not possess the attributes to play an ultra attacking style. This is why he has us playing defensively, in some games. He just does not trust our players enough and after the LCFC game, neither do I.
So you'd prepare us to attack, even if it means we lose more games and finish down the table?
ooo the true fans all agreeI'm coming round to this way of thinking also. I also really think a huge problem that's gone largely unmentioned is Smalling and Jones. Since we signed both how many calamitous situations has there been over the years? Yes, they both can perform well but I just associate both with disaster and during their time at the club we've had so many collapses. I just don't think they give you a really solid foundation to build confidence from.
On the other end of the spectrum we are also prone to conceding when we go ultra defensive. The term pragmatic is often used but sometimes I see us dropping back and defending when it isn't the most practical route to securing the result. Leicester was the latest example. Inviting that kind of pressure against a 10 man team significantly increased their chances of snatching a draw.
Attack was our weakest area last season. We didn't do adequate reinforcements last summer to build on that. We also took a gamble with our strong point, ie defense opting not to bring two proper fullbacks than persist with converted wingers.
Whereas City improved upon both their strengths and weaknesses and adopted a playing philosophy that minimised the exposure of their weak point and enhanced their strengths. It clearly shows.
Whereas City improved upon both their strengths and weaknesses and adopted a playing philosophy that minimised the exposure of their weak point and enhanced their strengths. It clearly shows.
No, but if I was a coach being paid 12 million pounds a year I’d hope that I’d be able to formulate a tactical plan that enabled the team to play good enjoyable football.
A plan that didn’t revolve around going ultra defensive after 60 minutes to try and keep a one goal lead.
Even fans that hated Manchester United have said in the past that they would always watch united when they were on tv because they knew that it would be an entertaining game.
Our free flowing, attack minded play captivated the imaginations of football fans across the world and we became the blueprint for entertaining football.
Those same opposition fans now just call us boring boring Man United and would rather watch paint dry than tune into one of our games.
For a club steeped in attacking football tradition, the board has massively fecked up with its three managerial appointments post Ferguson,
In my opinion we have the players within the squad to play some magnificent football. But they are not being allowed to. They look under coached and don’t look as though they are enjoying Nourinhos restrictive football at all.
No fans that don’t give a shit about following a popular opinion on an Internet forum.
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I'm not suggesting that our individual ability is superior to those around us. Quite the contrary I'd say we are on par with Spurs and below City. When I said individualism I meant relying on individuals to produce magic. I meant that we don't have the individuals to pull us through an entire season while we play safety first game-by-game football.
Who gives a rattlers in all honesty, what opposing fans think about us? We all know people tune in and out of games, no one sees progression like your own fans do.
Management is a balancing act. You have to judge what you have and go with it. If anything we needed to be “boring boring man united” for the last 15 minutes of the Leicester game instead of chasing a 3rd. There’s irony in that. Herrera went on to presumably do that and we failed to slow the game down, but yet again didn’t make any sort of impact.
Agree partially on coaching though. Mou has said before he likes to let his attackers do what they do, dictate their own game. But I think Martial and Rash are still learinging their trade and need more guidance.
Fully open throttle football is a non runner in current game when most teams have flair players these days and not teams of Vinne Jones’, unless you are a world class side front to back, which we are not. Even Barcelona totally sat back first half of el Classico, then picked Real off when they got frustrated. That’s management right there.
Looking at the gap to City hurts more than the fact we are well ahead of almost half of Fergies seasons point totals at this point. City are currently Usuain Bolt on a record times run, we are the lad coming here from behind. Mou under the cosh for that is ridiculous.
Mou is the man our fans don’t deserve. Bitiching and moaning when there is plenty of progression. We just need a little more time which is understandable, you can’t sell 20 and bring in 20 without ruining squad harmony in one window- and a team like City not to have a freak unreal season as they are doing.
You could feck off wherever you wish. Or could do one and save some money. The point I made was clear. Mou is not doing great and he has spent a lot already.
You don't trust Mourinho to be able to appreciate how much a player will cost the club he manages, don't you think this would be communicated between negotiator and manager? It's not like Lukaku and Pogba were the only options available to him and to suggest it is just lazy argumentation. We had one of the best defences in the league when Mourinho took over with talents like Tuanzebe and TFM breaking through and still we've poured another 60 million pounds at it getting absolutely nothing for it. We've bought an entire new midfield on top of the midfield, we had no matter how problematic it was and there was very little to seperate the two offenses - Martial- Rashford - Ibrahimovic/Lukaku vs Sterling- Sane - Kun/Jesus. City bought alot of players but they're first 11 is basically the same as two seasons ago, ours has actually fielded more of our investments yet still they've progressed. Pep has been alot more succesful developing his team compared to Mourinho who looked even more helpless in this years encounter at home compared to the same fixture last season. We had half of the possession and half the shots on target, that should never be acceptable at home to a team we've been pretty much neck and neck with for the last four seasons or so looking at points accumulated and head-to-head encounters. They had no penetration on the wings because our own wingers were playing like fullbacks, our main attacking plan was Rojo ballooning it upfield and hoping for the best, I mean come on now..
DOn't get me wrong, I don't want Mourinho out. I see him as our only hope of salvaging som good times from the coming years but how long are we going to make excuses for ourselves, when can we get beaten by City and hold up our hands and just say they're a better coached team. We're not fecking paupers ourselves you know.
I suggest we don't waste more money buying CBs who won't elevate our first eleven, or players for astronomical fees without a plan for how to use them effectively. There's Matic', Pjani, Fernandinhos out there that can be picked up and be more effective than putting it al on one player who becomes an excuse everytime he's out,what if Pogba had the injury issues of Bailly? It's irresponsible.
And that's the heart of the matter, this is the second year in a row we're outplayed at home to this lot and even worse this time around, our goals have been gifts both times aswell. This year we practicallly gifted them two goals but they had plenty of chances and that's the situations that will come when you concede 65% possession to the opposition. We haven't been better for the course of a season but we've been equal and 9 points behind whilst only beating us once under Van Gaal out of 4 attempts.
As I said I will give Mourinho time and hope for the best, he's the only man for the job in my opinion and he's doing well although it's difficult to appreciate currently. But we should be honest about who's shown more ability af the managers thus far and not make excuses.
Firstly we have not finished second yet. Secondly, we have thrown the towel in November. We have finished 6th under Jose. Is there a progress compared to last season, yes. Are we closer to being Champions, no. Our rival is tearing everyone a new one, while we are still trying to find our feet. Staying top 4 could be an okay result for some, but for me, with resources we have and Mou's reputation, we need to win the league or CL at least once in his first three years.
Firstly, you have no idea how much I soent to support the club, secondly I am sticking to SAF's principle of being the best. We have never been arrogant, we have been better. Let's see where the special one gets us. He is supposed to beat City with Pep in the long run.
Ignored from now on, all the best.
Feels like this is actually a really important match for him. If he (probably rightly) throws the players under the bus for the Leicester game, that needs to get a reaction from the team.
If we're flat AGAIN I think it says something about his ability to control the dressing room.
If we're flat AGAIN I think it says something about his ability to control the dressing room.
He would have recommended signing Lukaku and Pogba, what the price ends up being wouldn't concern him in the slightest. I highly doubt managers would boycott transfers if they felt the price was unreasonable, that's what negotiators do. They'd communicate with the manager during the process, but at the end of the day the prices being agreed upon is down to them.
We did not have one of the best defences in the league when Jose came in. We had Jones which was a constant crock, Smalling who was seemingly in a purple patch and a bunch of midfielders. Our defence was great as we dominated the ball and were rarely attacked, on the rare occasion we were though, we'd rarely look comfortable, De Gea basically having to have probably his best ever season for us further validates this.
Neck and neck with city for the past few seasons? What a laughable statement. They won the title in that time, we've struggled to make the champions league. They downed their tools the year before Pep came when Pep was announced and had a terrible second half of teh season, but the first half was possible title winning form. Pep inherited established stars, players who have been the best the Prem has seen in a long time. Jose had to com
Rojo hoofing it was explained in my post. When you have a lack of penetration in the middle of the pitch and have to play two holding midfielders you get boxed into your side of the pitch. When you get boxed in without an 'out' you're going to struggle.
Your point about them being better coached is irrelevant. Whether or not you believe that is up to you, but that wasn't the original argument that I was responding to.
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If the season is not over yet, why complain? Then wait for it to end and then assess, simple as.
We have "thrown in the towel" - so have 4 other teams on account of the simple fact that City has a better squad and are having a freak season which is not likely to be repeated. We are "trying to find our feet" because of 3 years of mediocrity and hence our improvement is slower.
I don't even see the likes of RAWK moaning as much as some here.
At the current rate of points, we finish 20-25 points behind 1st. That is not a strong 2nd finish. Its like when Dortmund finished far behind Bayern. No one saw it as a strong finish, more best of the losers.
Somehow, in a galaxy far away, Chelsea won the title without spending 90 million on one position. they literally bought a 30 million CM and it made all the difference. Somehow, somewhere, Juve sold a 90 million midfielder, bought one for 30 million and had a better season. What I am saying is you don't necessarily need to Pogba to have an effective or strong midfield. I love watching him and that said, that is certainly not the only way to build a midfield (buy one player at double price, and no one else).
These types of posters are a cancer on this forum. Just because he says we've thrown in the towel don't dare argue with it. Self entitled, spoilt epitome of a modern fan.
My main assessment, and disappointment, when it comes to Mourinho is how his negativity has created a huge cloud around the club. He has dictated the tone of reportage about the club by the media. I honestly can’t wait to see the back of him. Results have been pretty good during his tenure, but he’s sucked the excitement out of it by having such an attritional approach.
Helped by the fact that Jose left Conte a squad with the likes of Costa, Hazard and Fabregas and the addition of Kante coupled with some smart tactics was enough? Unlike us who signed the Fab 4 of Darmian, Memphis, Morgan and Bastian under LvG to give Jose.
Perspectives.
This is fair, but Jose doesn’t seem up for the challenge. I’d be very surprised to see him here next season.
I am not going to criticize those who don't have faith in Jose. Fine, they think he won't be successful. But atleast give the man a chance before calling for his head. Even his biggest detractors accept that there has been an improvement so far.
Well believe it or not, 'the current rate' means feck all. Football isn't linear. We could go on a win streak, we could go on a loss streak. City could draw or lose a few games etc. Assuming your estimation is correct, if we were quite a few points ahead of third place, it'd still be a comfortable second place finish, which would be a strong second, albeit not a title challenge.
Mourinho doesn't recommend signings, he asks for them. He'll have asked for Pogba and Lukaku fully aware that they'd eat up most of his budgets.
We did have one of the best defences, it's there for everyone to check. You can't always say 'we'll we were on a purple patch' 'City were underperforming', when do the excuses end?
They didn't win the league in that time. LvG was here for two seasons of which Lecester and CHelsea won the league, City ending up 9 points ahead in the first year and on equal points the second one, as I said having only managed to beat us once out of four attempts in that time.
And Mourinho shouldn't have an plan for attacking because Pogba is out, that's not acceptable surely? And that's what I'm saying, City would not suffer the way we suffer because one of their stars were out because their sysem will compensate for it. Ours will not.
It's not irrelevant, it's the brunt of this whole argument and it's there for all to see that they are better coached. They're winning the battle and the war and they're doing it with about 2 billion pounds of investment either sidelined or unavailable to them.
Yes. So did other 19 teams in the league. The difference is huge and it is showing. We are trying to find our feet because Mou is doing worse than City. He had 2 full summers to fix things and he has just 1 summer more to catch Pep. Happy with being 2nd so far, good on you. I am not even sure that City have been that brilliant. I can see their players doing better next season. It is up to us to at least reach their current level.
You're kidding yourself if you think a manager wouldn't have backup signings. He'd recommend the type of player he'd want and the ideal ones and whether or not a price can be agreed upon is down to the negotiator. Regardless of whether Jose knew it'd take a big chunk out of his budget, it was a necessary investment as I've already mentioned.
We really didn't. Dominating the ball and not giving the opponent a chance to attack you but looking shaky when you are attacked, resulting in your keeper having probably his best ever season isn't being good defensively. Go back and watch our games under LVG, we'd never look comfortable when being attacked.
Pogba being out specifically isn't the issue - I've already explained this. It's more so to do with the style of player. As good as Pogba is, we don't struggle when he's out because of how good he is mainly, moreso because we don't have another player of similar qualities. You're right City wouldn't suffer, because if KDB or Silva is out they still have Gundogan who can play that creative midfielder role, when Pogba is out we have to result to playing two holding midfielders.
Also you're right about them not winning the title - I thought you were talking about the 4 seasons before Jose and Pep came to Manchester, apologies.
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I have no issues with the improvements seen on the pitch.
But genuine questions exist around his medium-long term commitment to the club. He still lives in a hotel, his public prounouncements are almost exclusively negative and he doesn’t have many nice things to say about the fans.
On the pitch, he is generally doing a pretty good job, although the squad still needs a huge amount of work and I don’t think his transfers have been as good as sometimes reported.
He asked for players and got them, the responsibility is on him that they're the right ones.
Smalling was one of the best defenders in the league, some argued globally aswell, there was Valencia who Mourinho called the best RB in the world, the best goalkeeper in the world along with good to decent talent in Shaw, Jones, Rojo capable fillins like Blind with the likes of Tuanzebe and TFM also coming through the systems. The problem under Van Gaal under his second season was that we were playing a midfield that just like now was set up in a way which was completely dysfunctional, giving teams free runs at our defence making them look shakier than they were.
How can it be acceptable to not have a viable plan B when your best player is out for whatever reason, isn't that what we constantly criticize other managers like Klopp and Wenger for? Yet when it's our manager it's because he's not backed enough?
Agree a bit and disagree a bit.
First Pep. Yes he had spent a lot of money but at the same time he has Delph playing LB, no Stones and silva and Kdb in CM. However I don't want Jose to be like Pep. Actually that's not possible. But that's not what I'd like anyway.
However it is absolutely on Jose to improve our ball keeping ability in the final 3rd.
Big fan of that red scarf he's wearing.
Not sure what the feck he was thinking with that lineup. Horrendously balanced from the off and was always going to be a shit performance.
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Remember when it was supposed to be Pep who would struggle over the winter period, and good ol' seasoned and PL experienced Mourinho would triumph over him in that regard?
We're getting well into the top 4 battle now. We could have easily been in a comfortable 2nd.
We're getting well into the top 4 battle now. We could have easily been in a comfortable 2nd.
If Martial isn’t injured then he’s made a terrible decision.
Just feck of to PSG and take 99% of this squad with you please.
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