José Mourinho | 2018/19 Performances

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kouroux said:
:lol: it really depends on how you wanna twist it. You could easily say we have a manager who is clueless against the smaller tactically despite what he pulls off against the bigger.
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It's easier to tactically outsmart the bigger teams who have better players and smarter managers?

simonhch said:
The board is to blame for a terrible lack of strategic intent. No coherency to their managerial recruitment, and consequently a disjointed period of transition, after disjointed period of transition.

The manager is responsible for the terrible football being played on the field. He’s been backed to the tune of 400m, and is playing some of the most reductive and negative football in our history. This would be unacceptable at any of the other elite clubs we compare ourselves to. Real, Barca, Bayern.....none of them would accept what we are seeing. He needs to be fired, he deserves to be fired. End of.

Our standards should be much higher than this.
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So to clarify... sacked for finishing 2nd in the league with 81 points and playing bad football?
 
endless_wheelies said:
It's easier to tactically outsmart the bigger teams who have better players and smarter managers?


So to clarify... sacked for finishing 2nd in the league with 81 points and playing bad football?
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It is easier to have your team focused against the bigger boys than the rest but the points are all the same whether it is City or Brighton. Consistency against type of opponent is much more interesting
 
kouroux said:
It is easier to have your team focused against the bigger boys than the rest but the points are all the same whether it is City or Brighton. Consistency against type of opponent is much more interesting
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Ah so it's now motivational not tactical.

endless_wheelies said:
It's the very definition of having inconsistent players with weak mentality if they can't motivate themselves to win a match. When you listen to ex-players they always talk about how when things were going badly the likes of Ferdinand, Keane, Neville would give them all a kick up the proverbial, it's not all about the manager. Jose is a multiple league winning manager, I don't think the variable is his lack of motivational ability.


Come to think of it is us having an appalling record against weaker sides actually a thing anyway? Are there stats to back up that we're notably worse than the other top 6 at this? I don't know but I'm suspicious the whingers are just cherry-picking results that always happen over 38 games anyway to service the agenda.
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endless_wheelies said:
So to clarify... sacked for finishing 2nd in the league with 81 points and playing bad football?
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So to clarify…you're completely cool with his antics, moaning, throwing players under the bus, praising his favourites after poor performances, overall dogshit football we're playing, constant negativity that surrounds him, going out to Seville in CL, belittling the club by saying we're used to going out in early stages of CL, picking flights everyone, never taking any responsibility for anything, attacking club legends etc?
 
King Kana said:
So? Is that your answer to every defeat? Sack every manager who loses to a small team? Are you a child?

Why is Klopp still at Liverpool when Burnley beat them 2-0 at the beginning of the season, same as Utd, season they finished outside the top 4? (16/17 i reckon?)

Why wasn’t Pep fired for losing 4-2 to Leicester or 4-0 to Everton?

You hate your manager, which is super weird for a Utd supporter, considering how SAF started his own reign (it was really shit for a while at the start iirc) and I see how that’s clouding your reasoning. Yes your football is dire at present but, tell me, just what do you think you were going to achieve with some of the dross in your squad who are still here after failing with 2 previous managers? Before you say, well why didn’t he get rid of them, do you not see what’s happening now? Clearly he isn’t in complete control of transfers and has to do as he’s told. Any blame whatsoever, in regards to transfers, should firmly lay at the foot of the V. Chairman.

Re attacking football; he’s changed his backroom, bringing in Carrick/Mckenna and, if he’s been playing defensive and is trying to switch, are they not going to have to go through growing pains to come to grips with whatever new system they employ? Besides, do you not realize they didn’t have a pre season to implement said changes? Are you not seeing the effects of same lack of pre season in how disjointed the players looked at Brighton, being unable to string 2 passes together? How do you explain Pogba’s utterly woeful performance? Or Fred?

If some of you, who hate the manager (fair enough) could try to apply a little sense here and there I think your team would be better for it. Last I checked, teams need their 12th man. The vitriol and attitude towards your club at the minute doesn’t resemble the “Utd way” most of us have come to admire and respect.

My $0.02.
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It's funny how some are commenting that you are a 'newbie' like your time on this forum equates to your knowledge of football. The arrogance of some on here is laughable. I think you are spot on in many ways but I don't think Jose helps himself at times and has learnt nothing from his past experiences at Chelsea or Real.
 
Fracture90 said:
So to clarify…you're completely cool with his antics, moaning, throwing players under the bus, praising his favourites after poor performances, overall dogshit football we're playing, constant negativity that surrounds him, going out to Seville in CL, belittling the club by saying we're used to going out in early stages of CL, picking flights everyone, never taking any responsibility for anything, attacking club legends etc?
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Have you ever considered that there are people that don't share your extreme view of every little thing he does? Perhaps, just maybe, people believe his complaints are justified and not nearly as ridiculous as you want them to be, that they are fine with him holding players to account? Didn't think so.
 
Fracture90 said:
So to clarify…you're completely cool with his antics, moaning, throwing players under the bus, praising his favourites after poor performances, overall dogshit football we're playing, constant negativity that surrounds him, going out to Seville in CL, belittling the club by saying we're used to going out in early stages of CL, picking flights everyone, never taking any responsibility for anything, attacking club legends etc?
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Yes because they're not the bottom line and have been exaggerated and overblown anyway.

Except Sevilla which was a disaster, BUT... it was one match where we can again call into question the players' mentalities that Jose wanted to correct this summer. Jose's record in Europe speaks for itself.
 
ivaldo said:
Have you ever considered that there are people that don't share your extreme view of every little thing he does? Perhaps, just maybe, people believe his complaints are justified and not nearly as ridiculous as you want them to be, that they are fine with him holding players to account? Didn't think so.
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Have I falsely added anything to that list or has he done everything I've mentioned above?
 
endless_wheelies said:
Yes because they're not the bottom line and have been exaggerated and overblown anyway.

Except Sevilla which was a disaster, BUT... it was one match where we can again call into question the players' mentalities that Jose wanted to correct this summer. Jose's record in Europe speaks for itself.
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Be kind and highlight the "overblown and exaggerated" parts.
 
For all his faults, Jose shouldn't be sacked.

He's guilty for not instilling a proper style of play and coaching our attack, but he's also been severely hampered by not being backed in the transfer market. The right flank is absolutely horrendous.

It's a sad state of affairs that we really can't even pinpoint the blame on one particular thing - manager's tactics, Woodward's transfer policy, the players - all have to share part of the blame. Makes it such a mess that it's hard to clean up easily.
 
King Kana said:
So? Is that your answer to every defeat? Sack every manager who loses to a small team? Are you a child?

Why is Klopp still at Liverpool when Burnley beat them 2-0 at the beginning of the season, same as Utd, season they finished outside the top 4? (16/17 i reckon?)

Why wasn’t Pep fired for losing 4-2 to Leicester or 4-0 to Everton?

You hate your manager, which is super weird for a Utd supporter, considering how SAF started his own reign (it was really shit for a while at the start iirc) and I see how that’s clouding your reasoning. Yes your football is dire at present but, tell me, just what do you think you were going to achieve with some of the dross in your squad who are still here after failing with 2 previous managers? Before you say, well why didn’t he get rid of them, do you not see what’s happening now? Clearly he isn’t in complete control of transfers and has to do as he’s told. Any blame whatsoever, in regards to transfers, should firmly lay at the foot of the V. Chairman.

Re attacking football; he’s changed his backroom, bringing in Carrick/Mckenna and, if he’s been playing defensive and is trying to switch, are they not going to have to go through growing pains to come to grips with whatever new system they employ? Besides, do you not realize they didn’t have a pre season to implement said changes? Are you not seeing the effects of same lack of pre season in how disjointed the players looked at Brighton, being unable to string 2 passes together? How do you explain Pogba’s utterly woeful performance? Or Fred?

If some of you, who hate the manager (fair enough) could try to apply a little sense here and there I think your team would be better for it. Last I checked, teams need their 12th man. The vitriol and attitude towards your club at the minute doesn’t resemble the “Utd way” most of us have come to admire and respect.

My $0.02.
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Well said.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Ah so it's now motivational not tactical.
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It is everything. Tactically also it is terrible what we do against the smaller teams. Sitting when we should be dominating and taking initiative.
Mourinho does well tactically in some games but terribly wrong in others, just because he has it good against the bigger it means he is a brilliant tactician all the time.
The problem is that you are seeking for a black or white type of response, all or nothing.
 
Fracture90 said:
And you're channeling youe inner Mourinho and deflecting.
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Says the bloke who completely ignored the point I made. Who needs logic when you can can go hysterical about your manager, hey?

Just look how loaded your question is. You can literally make the same point every single manager, ever. Unless you can provide me with the perfect manager, you can apply the same stupid point you're trying to make to each and every one.
 
ivaldo said:
Says the bloke who completely ignored the point I made. Who needs logic when you can can go hysterical about your manager, hey?

Just look how loaded your question is. You can literally make the same point every single manager, ever. Unless you can provide me with the perfect manager, you can apply the same stupid point you're trying to make to each and every one.
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You're guy who's actively trying to cynically laugh off any and all, no matter how valid criticism pointed towards Mourinho and yet you're trying to accuse other people of being hysterical…

If you want it to be tangible, go and download his interviews in which he said what I've mentioned, transfer it to some tangible media storage drive - et voila, tangible!

I'm UTD support and being so I chose to start with our manager first.
 
Just finished watching the Liverpool - Brighton game. Some of the football in the first half and the link up play between the front 3 was scintillating. I can perfectly understand why some of the hard core United fans want Mourinho out. It's like an Italian Manager managing a Brazil football team. It just doesn't work. Fans having identified with so much attacking flair at United can't digest the style of football played under Mourinho right now.

I don't think he is the right man for United in the long run. But I also feel it's mad to get him OUT, right now, 2 games into this season, like most of the (clueless) fans at cafe want. Let's say hypothetically the fans get their wish and Mourinho gets kicked out. What next? It is very difficult to get the right manager at the middle of the season. Considering how tight it is at the top, with the players united have, it is very difficult for any manager to come in and make it to the top 4. Appointing a intermediary manager aka Giggs , won't take u to top 4 or could make it even worse. Success breeds success. Without making it to the top 4, it is very difficult to get the top players to make it back into the top 4. The rebuilding process will take way longer than Arsenal.

On the contrary, say the board backed Mourinho this season with his defensive signing (which I honestly feel united needs, irrespective of who the manager is going into future) United could have salvaged this season and considered replacing him by the end of the season with an entirely new manager and new ideas. The board is in the wrong here. Also with Pogba and Martial, fans feel Mourinho should not sell them because they are quality. Yes they are undeniable quality, but they lack the attitude to be successful in a team like United. People slating Mourinho for not getting the best out of them don't realize that it would have been no different under Sir Alex. These players wouldn't have made it in the team he was still here. Of course there is the tactical misfit between Mourinho and Martial, but for large parts he is not even trying. With Pogba, I don't even think its a tactical misfit. He just doesnt have the right attitude. In the world cup, you could see France playing way more defensive, long ball style (with Giroud) than a Mourinho united. But he did well, he was more serious giving his all and though he was still poor for large parts of the tournament it was way different than how he plays for United. So I would have backed Mourinho with a Willian (though he is 29) than a toxic Pogba/Martial, to guarantee at the least 4th spot.

All is still not lost, even with the current signings, if the fans and the board get behind Mourinho, he will get top 4

kouroux said:
He isn't spot on because there are definitely more reasons as to why some fans would want Mourinho to leave the club. It's very arrogant to just assume things like that.
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I apologize I was only trying to state all the footballing reasons behind wanting Mourinho OUT. There could be other reasons why people may not like him,lacking class, whingeing, being toxic in interviews, baiting the media, creating turbulence in the board. It's hard to defend against that, but to call him out right bad dinosaur of a manger is not right. The Liverpool-Brighton game, except for bits and pieces, liverpool never clicked into top gear and if this game was played away, it could as easily have been a United result. All the top teams including City/Liverpool/Tottenham/Chelsea are yet to hit top gear simply because of the after effects of the World cup and a poor pre-season. This is more true for united and you could see their attack lacking fluidity. But it's naive to think it will be the same way for the whole season.

Also there were other posts that talk about United being poor in attack 2nd half of last seaSon. But if you take into context, the injuries to a number of United players, the blending in of a literal new signing Sanchez, the poor form of number of important players like Martial/Pogba/Mata and the overall poor quality of the squad in the middle, you would see its not all Mourinho's fault
 
Fracture90 said:
You're guy who's actively trying to cynically laugh off any and all, no matter how valid criticism pointed towards Mourinho and yet you're trying to accuse other people of being hysterical…

If you want it to be tangible, go and download his interviews in which he said what I've mentioned, transfer it to some tangible media storage drive - et voila, tangible!

I'm UTD support and being so I chose to start with our manager first.
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Nah. I'm the guy who said our performance against Brighton was indefensible, and that any criticisms about that game was completely justified. Beleive it or not, it is possible to hold a stance on something without being blindly loyal to it. You're sharpening your pitchfork and drooling from the corners of your mouth regardless of what happens. So yeah, you're hysterical.

At this point I'm going to assume you don't understand my use of "tangible" here.

Put it this way. You name a manager, any manager you like, and I will ask you the same structured, loaded question and ask you to justify your answer. Use Fergie and I'll ask you if you are "absolutely cool" with him playing Park and Rafael in midfield over Pogba, or throwing boots at his players, or creating "negative" press by refusing to speak to the BBC, or actively sueing the owners of the club, or a myriad of other things.
 
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ivaldo said:
Nah. I'm the guy who said our performance against Brighton was indefensible, and that any criticisms about that game was completely justified. Beleive it or not, it is possible to hold a stance on something without being blindly loyal to it. You're sharpening your pitchfork and drooling from the corners of your mouth regardless of what happens. So yeah, you're hysterical.

At this point I'm going to assume you don't understand my use of "tangible" here.

Put it this way. You name a manager, any manager you like, and I will ask you the same structured, loaded question and ask you to justify your answer. Use Fergie and I'll ask you if you are "absolutely cool" with him playing Park and Rafael in midfield over Pogba, or throwing boots at his players, or creating "negative" press by refusing to speak to the BBC, or actively sueing the owners of the club, or a myriad of other things.
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Have you ever criticised Mourinho before the Brighton game tho? I'm struggling to remember many if any examples.

That "sharpening your pitchfork and drooling part" is exactly what you're doing in preparation to counter any comments inside the threads containing any criticism pointed towards Mourinho. Besides I used to give him credit when due until I realised he's an irreversibly bitter guy.

There's the difference, just because I like the manager I won't blindly try to justify every wrong/bad thing he does solely because I feel devoted to him. That's wrong thing to do. Mourinho started with his antics from the get go and that shiit as backed by previous examples, in his case, usually culminate up to a point of no return in the 3rd year of his tenure.
 
Fracture90 said:
Have you ever criticised Mourinho before the Brighton game tho? I'm struggling to remember many if any examples.

That "sharpening your pitchfork and drooling part" is exactly what you're doing in preparation to counter any comments inside the threads containing any criticism pointed towards Mourinho. Besides I used to give him credit when due until I realised he's an irreversibly bitter guy.

There's the difference, just because I like the manager I won't blindly try to justify every wrong/bad thing he does solely because I feel devoted to him. That's wrong thing to do. Mourinho started with his antics from the get go and that shiit as backed by previous examples, in his case, usually culminate up to a point of no return in the 3rd year of his tenure.
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Yes I have. Feel free to go through my posts. After you decided he he was the devil, have you ever attempted to consider Jose related things with impartiality?

You've already set that precedent, mate. The poster responded to another with a quanitifable, tangible, factual question, regarding our points tally and our league position. You then responded to him with an entirely loaded question, asking him to be "completely cool" with him accepting things how YOU see them. It's not even crossed your mind that some posters might find his complaints as justified, or that the "negativity" surrounding him is ridiculously inflated. You're asking him to respond to you using your opinion of things as factual. You don't want a discussion.

The fact you try to apply the bolded statement literally in the same post you acknowledge me doing the exact opposite kind of shows where you are with this.
 
I guess Man City and Liverpool won't thrash every small team 4-0 after all then. Who knew!?!

Not that it matters the ability to jump from argument to argument without recognising when they're proven to be chatting bull is a mainstay of the moaners on this forum.
 
Coach V said:
Also there were other posts that talk about United being poor in attack 2nd half of last seaSon. But if you take into context, the injuries to a number of United players, the blending in of a literal new signing Sanchez, the poor form of number of important players like Martial/Pogba/Mata and the overall poor quality of the squad in the middle, you would see its not all Mourinho's fault
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You're right it isn't solely his fault but he's part of the problem (and part of the solution ideally). There isn't ONE reason that explains our current issues but it's the combo of several things, he's part of it, the players are part of it, Woodward and the owners are part of it too.
 
kouroux said:
You're right it isn't solely his fault but he's part of the problem (and part of the solution ideally). There isn't ONE reason that explains our current issues but it's the combo of several things, he's part of it, the players are part of it, Woodward and the owners are part of it too.
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Agree and that for me is why the situation is so worrying....
 


Makes it all the more puzzling that he persists with his 'bull in a china shop' man management. Smacks of pure arrogance.
 
forevrared said:


Makes it all the more puzzling that he persists with his 'bull in a china shop' man management. Smacks of pure arrogance.
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"persists"? He literally came out and said he won't criticize any players in front of the press any more. And behind closed doors it's ridiculous to expect any manager not to criticize players.
 
Well if the quote from Carragher is accurate, it's something he's been aware of for years. He's certainly not been shy about publicly criticizing players up until the current point where he's starting to worry about his job.
 
kouroux said:
It is everything. Tactically also it is terrible what we do against the smaller teams. Sitting when we should be dominating and taking initiative.
Mourinho does well tactically in some games but terribly wrong in others, just because he has it good against the bigger it means he is a brilliant tactician all the time.
The problem is that you are seeking for a black or white type of response, all or nothing.
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Still not convinced we're not having our discussion on an incorrect assumption - we got 81 points last season so did we really have more stinkers than can be reasonably expected over 38 games?

But like I said earlier, I've heard the likes of Ferdinand on BT Sport say that Fergie would often just say to players before matches against inferior teams "lads, you're better than them, go and work out how to win". The importance of special tactics for each game is overblown, so whilst tailored formations and instructions can make the difference in big games players mostly play through muscle memory and if the team is comfortably superior to the opposition then it's not necessary to risk inhibiting their performance with special tactics at all. I think the discussion about mentality is far more important in relation to playing lesser teams than tactics, because what we don't know is what Mourinho says to players before the start of matches and how well the players carry out his instructions, but what we do know is Mourinho has recently been desperate for experience and leadership.
 
Mourinho has failed in improving the mentality of players approaching these small games. It has been happening ever since Huddersfield loss last season and it's not improving. Whenever we face a small team on their pitch we approach it in a completely lax behavior, on snail pace and literally walking on the pitch. We fast become second to every ball, second to every challenge and not later we get down by a goal or even 2 before we finally realize we need to actually work and run to win these kind of games.

The fact that his pattern has been repeating for 2 years now is unacceptable. Players are sure half arsed super arrogant bunch of stars in these kind of games but Mourinho deserves part of the blame for being able to make the players run against trash teams. He says all the right things in the press, that these games are difficult and the opposite team will be hard but comes the match and we see exactly the same attitude again!

By whatever means, he needs to find a way to improve this trash attitude in these kind of games.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Still not convinced we're not having our discussion on an incorrect assumption - we got 81 points last season so did we really have more stinkers than can be reasonably expected over 38 games?

But like I said earlier, I've heard the likes of Ferdinand on BT Sport say that Fergie would often just say to players before matches against inferior teams "lads, you're better than them, go and work out how to win". The importance of special tactics for each game is overblown, so whilst tailored formations and instructions can make the difference in big games players mostly play through muscle memory and if the team is comfortably superior to the opposition then it's not necessary to risk inhibiting their performance with special tactics at all. I think the discussion about mentality is far more important in relation to playing lesser teams than tactics, because what we don't know is what Mourinho says to players before the start of matches and how well the players carry out his instructions, but what we do know is Mourinho has recently been desperate for experience and leadership.
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Yes because if you look at the difference between us and the team we tried to beat for 1st

What Rio said is great insight but when it comes to current football, it's borderline meaningless because times have changed so much and our players from a mental strength POV have too. There aren't alpha males in our team you would just need a few words to give as motivation for them to perform well on the pitch.
We have a bunch of coddle primma donnas who need to be validated in everything they do, not the same caliber of player therefore they need to be guided.

Mourinho has his good days just as he has his bad days when it comes to tactics and motivation.
 
Are there any defensive minded managers who are still having success at top level clubs? I can't think of any when even lower level clubs have binned them and go for more adventurous managers. His inability to coax something cohesive out of our attack will eventually be his undoing.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Are there any defensive minded managers who are still having success at top level clubs? I can't think of any when even lower level clubs have binned them and go for more adventurous managers. His inability to coax something cohesive out of our attack will eventually be his undoing.
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Simeone and Allegri.
 
Coach V said:
Completely agree with what Robbie says. To even talk about Moyes and Mourinho in the same sentence is ridiculous
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If the context is neither manager is doing that good of a job and blaming the players is the go to talking point, then no, it is not ridiculous to talk about them in the same sentence.
 
kouroux said:
Yes because if you look at the difference between us and the team we tried to beat for 1st

What Rio said is great insight but when it comes to current football, it's borderline meaningless because times have changed so much and our players from a mental strength POV have too. There aren't alpha males in our team you would just need a few words to give as motivation for them to perform well on the pitch.
We have a bunch of coddle primma donnas who need to be validated in everything they do, not the same caliber of player therefore they need to be guided.

Mourinho has his good days just as he has his bad days when it comes to tactics and motivation.
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Agreed. Sometimes it's like some people are seemingly unaware that football and footballers evolve. What was the case then is not necessarily the case now. Also, that squad was way more united (pardon the pun) and each player already knew what their role in the team was. It's the same thing when people bring up the old "well fergie didn't win anything for a couple of years at United". As if the two time periods are comparable in any way.
 
el3mel said:
Mourinho has failed in improving the mentality of players approaching these small games. It has been happening ever since Huddersfield loss last season and it's not improving. Whenever we face a small team on their pitch we approach it in a completely lax behavior, on snail pace and literally walking on the pitch. We fast become second to every ball, second to every challenge and not later we get down by a goal or even 2 before we finally realize we need to actually work and run to win these kind of games.

The fact that his pattern has been repeating for 2 years now is unacceptable. Players are sure half arsed super arrogant bunch of stars in these kind of games but Mourinho deserves part of the blame for being able to make the players run against trash teams. He says all the right things in the press, that these games are difficult and the opposite team will be hard but comes the match and we see exactly the same attitude again!

By whatever means, he needs to find a way to improve this trash attitude in these kind of games.
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Its no wonder we lost to every promoted side last season away from home. Jose needs to arrest the situation indeed but I honestly don't think he knows how.
 
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