John Stones

Many think that defenders can develop while sitting in the treatment room. That isn't the case. Milestones need to be reached before a promising defender becomes a quality one and if those milestones aren't reached in a short period of time than rest assured that the defender won't develop any further. Wes was 10 times the defender ugly face was and he failed to fulfill his talent in full because of injuries

Also what the point in keeping a squad player whose always injured?
 
devilish said:
Many think that defenders can develop while sitting in the treatment room. That isn't the case. Milestones need to be reached before a promising defender becomes a quality one and if those milestones aren't reached in a short period of time than rest assured that the defender won't develop any further. Wes was 10 times the defender ugly face was and he failed to fulfill his talent in full because of injuries

Also what the point in keeping a squad player whose always injured?
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And do you think Stones has reached enough of those milestones to be worth spunking £50m on?
 
Skills said:
And do you think Stones has reached enough of those milestones to be worth spunking £50m on?
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That's a very difficult question to answer since we would spending 35-40m mostly on potential too. Stones is not the finished product yet. Also need to consider that quality defenders are a rare breed

Also buying stones has nothing to do with keeping jones
 
I wouldn't mind buying Stones but there are much better defenders out there. But he has age on his side and he could surpass the likes of Hummels. Anyone expecting Stones to come in and not have peaks and troughs are going to be in for a rude awakening as he's nowhere near the finished article.
 
Lawman said:
I wouldn't mind buying Stones but there are much better defenders out there. But he has age on his side and he could surpass the likes of Hummels. Anyone expecting Stones to come in and not have peaks and troughs are going to be in for a rude awakening as he's nowhere near the finished article.
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There's not a lot of blood and guts CB's around these days, it seems to be a dying breed and I also think that while Stones is getting too cocky on the ball that can be coached out of him, certainly much easier than coaching stupidity out of Jones.
 
Devil may care said:
There's not a lot of blood and guts CB's around these days, it seems to be a dying breed and I also think that while Stones is getting too cocky on the ball that can be coached out of him, certainly much easier than coaching stupidity out of Jones.
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Yep Jones has the IQ of Dusty bin on a football field but is still worth keeping if he can get and stay fit. Stones is far more cultured but from what I have seen is way short of a you Rio level when we signed him (not sure the age differences to be fair)
 
Lawman said:
Yep Jones has the IQ of Dusty bin on a football field but is still worth keeping if he can get and stay fit. Stones is far more cultured but from what I have seen is way short of a you Rio level when we signed him (not sure the age differences to be fair)
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Jones is like a CB version of Sturridge, it seems he is prone to constant niggling injuries and coupled with his rashness I just can't see him ever being more than a sporadic back-up. Rio was 24 when he joined us so he had a few years on Stones and even he struggled here when he first arrived.
 
Devil may care said:
Jones is like a CB version of Sturridge, it seems he is prone to constant niggling injuries and coupled with his rashness I just can't see him ever being more than a sporadic back-up. Rio was 24 when he joined us so he had a few years on Stones and even he struggled here when he first arrived.
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I so miss Rio.
 
Everyone needs to calm down, he's 21, he will make and learn from his mistakes.

Great player with the ball at his feet and with huge potential.
 
Devil may care said:
And Vidic, and Evra, those 3 were so crucial to that awesome 3 years we had when Ronnie was killing it at the top end for us.
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Yep I miss those days. Currently we have DDG Smalling Shaw and Martial and a few more good ones but we really need 3 topclass players to bring on the ones we signed who are all good players but still finding their feet.
 
Lawman said:
Yep I miss those days. Currently we have DDG Smalling Shaw and Martial and a few more good ones but we really need 3 topclass players to bring on the ones we signed who are all good players but still finding their feet.
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I agree, 3 proven quality players like Griezmann, Gundogan and a top striker would be the type we need to complete the team.
 
Lawman said:
Yep I miss those days. Currently we have DDG Smalling Shaw and Martial and a few more good ones but we really need 3 topclass players to bring on the ones we signed who are all good players but still finding their feet.
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I agree about the quality of those 4, and that we need to add more of that quality.
I'd prefer we spend big on 2 top class players knowing those positions are sorted, rather than sign 3 good enough players that leave question marks.
Shaw for example was a really solid signing, that's the type of signing that sorts out a position(barring injuries of course).
Stones is probably in the same category of quality as Shaw, and it's normal for a young defender to have lapses(I remember the type of criticism Rio got as a young defender). But Stones is the type of quality player we need to be looking at.
 
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For me, Stones is in the same category as Ferdinand was when he signed for us. I would love to see him here. One big positive of the Van Gaal reign has been a focus on getting young players in. It will serve us well in a few years.
 
Trizy said:
Everyone needs to calm down, he's 21, he will make and learn from his mistakes.

Great player with the ball at his feet and with huge potential.
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Physically he's still a little lacking for me. IMO he's not that tall, strong or quick as top level CBs go, so he's going to have to have some storming positional sense to make up for it. AT the moment he lacks that but time will tell. Certainly Mourinho was a fan and he's usually a good judge of a centre half.
 
He's 6'2" which is probably average for a CB, and he's deceivingly strong due to his slim build. I don't think he's slow either, he's usually needed to be quick to rectify for mistakes that he makes (which he does more often than not). He needs to work on not making those mistakes in the first place.
 
SilentWitness said:
He's 6'2" which is probably average for a CB, and he's deceivingly strong due to his slim build. I don't think he's slow either, he's usually needed to be quick to rectify for mistakes that he makes (which he does more often than not). He needs to work on not making those mistakes in the first place.
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Good job he is only 21 then eh?
 
Coxy said:
Good job he is only 21 then eh?
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Indeed, like @BigDunc9 said before though it's pretty uncharacteristic for him to be in poor form, he usually only is after coming back from injury. It helped to have Jags beside him previously but Funes Mori hasn't been that bad for a PL beginner. I'd maybe give Stones a rest though and let Funes Mori start with Jags at some point though.
 
Physically, Stones isn't lacking at all if you compare him with top level centerbacks.

Height wise, he's taller than arguably the second best English centerback of the last 20 years:
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So it's not going to be a problem, plus he has a good leap. Bit lanky right now, but he will fill out naturally as he gets older, and Everton can always put him on a special training program. Being a brick shithouse at 20/ 21 limits your nimbleness later on, so it isn't always a good thing - especially for cultured defenders (like Ramos and Piqué and Carvalho, or even young Ferdinand - who were more athletic and light on their feet because they're often asked to operate in space, than exceptionally bulky).

What matters now is the 'in between the ears stuff' - that's essentially what separates the average from the good, and to take things up a notch - the truly great. Can he take his game to the next level mentally? Ironing out some positional flaws, improving his concentration levels, preparation and attention to minor details, learning when to take a risk and when to be conservative - things of that nature. Too much is made out of physiques of young players (Shaw is too fat, Stones is too wiry) when there's so much physical development left.
 
Devil may care said:
I agree, 3 proven quality players like Griezmann, Gundogan and a top striker would be the type we need to complete the team.
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If Woodward is capable of getting his head out of Bales ass we might have a shot at someone like Griezmann.
 
Invictus said:
Physically, Stones isn't lacking at all if you compare him with top level centerbacks.

Height wise, he's taller than arguably the second best English centerback of the last 20 years:

So it's not going to be a problem, plus he has a good leap. Bit lanky right now, but he will fill out naturally as he gets older, and Everton can always put him on a special training program. Being a brick shithouse at 20/ 21 limits your nimbleness later on, so it isn't always a good thing - especially for cultured defenders (like Ramos and Piqué and Carvalho, or even young Ferdinand - who were more athletic and light on their feet because they're often asked to operate in space, than exceptionally bulky).

What matters now is the 'in between the ears stuff' - that's essentially what separates the average from the good, and to take things up a notch - the truly great. Can he take his game to the next level mentally? Ironing out some positional flaws, improving his concentration levels, preparation and attention to minor details, learning when to take a risk and when to be conservative - things of that nature. Too much is made out of physiques of young players (Shaw is too fat, Stones is too wiry) when there's so much physical development left.
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Perhaps. Terry at 19 was significantly more dominant in the air than Stones is now IMO, shorter or not. I doubt aerial power is something Stones will pick up massively at this point. Rio wasn't as good in the air as Terry either but he was still taller than Stones. And quicker.

You're definitely right that he has plenty of time to pick up the positional play, consistency and concentration. Rio lacked it a bit until he was at least 23/24. Not saying Stones definitely won't get there by any means, but equally I don't yet see that he definitely has it in him to go on to be a great centre back either. Possibly another young English player the press are trying to build up in order to later knock him down.
 
Barcelona want him, but they're yet to decide whether to make a summer move for him or not, according to Ballbag.
 
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Scorpy said:
Barcelona want him, but they're yet to decide whether to make a summer move for him or not, according to Ballbag.
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That's Barca who can't afford to even buy a striker this window? Seems unlikely, unless they're going to go down the Madrid road of flogging a car park back to the state for eleventy billion euro.
 
Scorpy said:
Barcelona want him, but they're yet to decide whether to make a summer move for him or not, according to Ballbag.
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Barca simply wont pay the kind of fee that Everton would demand. The weak euro doesnt help either.

Unless Everton are willing to ask for a lower fee from a non domestic rival. If I was Kenwright, I'd rather fleece the English clubs that usually have more money than sense. They could get 50 mil plus if a bidding war ensues, thats almost 80 mil euros..
 
I can see Barca going for Marquinhos as he seems to want to leave PSG.
 
Bojan11 said:
I can see Barca going for Marquinhos as he seems to want to leave PSG.
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He can be a possibility. Also Laporte could go to Barcelona, I read that Puyol was working to be his agent.
 
Brophs said:
That's Barca who can't afford to even buy a striker this window? Seems unlikely, unless they're going to go down the Madrid road of flogging a car park back to the state for eleventy billion euro.
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How are they broke?
 
Trizy said:
How are they broke?
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They have hit their constitutional limit of revenue to wages ratio. They are also having serious problems renewing some of their sponsorship contracts. To top it up, they have a stadium to pay for and massive contracts with players to renew.
 
Devil may care said:
Jones is like a CB version of Sturridge, it seems he is prone to constant niggling injuries and coupled with his rashness I just can't see him ever being more than a sporadic back-up. Rio was 24 when he joined us so he had a few years on Stones and even he struggled here when he first arrived.
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Ya, no. Sturridge plays very well when he isn't injured(which rarely happens), Jones doesn't.
 
He looks like a ridiculous talent and it's hard not to love the idea of him partnering Smalling. But he sure does make a lot of mistakes. What do people put it down to? Lack of a top class established partner to guide him?
 
SteveW said:
He looks like a ridiculous talent and it's hard not to love the idea of him partnering Smalling. But he sure does make a lot of mistakes. What do people put it down to? Lack of a top class established partner to guide him?
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Bit too cocky I think. He overplays too often and is perhaps a little to relaxed. Bit like the young Rio.
 
SteveW said:
He looks like a ridiculous talent and it's hard not to love the idea of him partnering Smalling. But he sure does make a lot of mistakes. What do people put it down to? Lack of a top class established partner to guide him?
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He's 21.
 
Said in December.

FC Ronaldo said:
£50m? Strewth.

He's a very good player and an exciting prospect that I'm a big fan of don't get me wrong but he's not even a very good ball playing centre half when compared on the world stage yet. He's just a standout prospect, doing well in a phase where he's been learning on the job with good ball playing skills compared to the likes of Jagielka next to him.

Whenever I've seen him play I've noticed how his positioning can be suspect and while his ball playing skills are nice to see, the consistency in his decision making is still short of an elite defender. Some of his dribbles and passes are horrible and yet they're glossed over because other times they look great. Chris Smalling was lambasted on here solidly for 12 months for doing similar work and nobody was calling him a £50m defender. Even with his increased experience and trophy collection.

I repeat, I'm a big fan of Stones and I know footballers are only human, everyone makes mistakes and errors, and this lad is clearly on an upward trajectory to being a top quality defender. Ironing out the positioning and decision making references above would probably get him on the cusp of being so alone, but let's not lose grip of reality and context. £50m? Not for me Clive. Not yet anyway.
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Much tougher for him today now without Besic in front hassling the opposition midfield though.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
He's 21.
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I get that. It's still fair to say he's making way to many silly errors even taking that into account. If Shaw or say Jones a couple of years ago were making as many many mistakes as that they'd be slaughtered on here. He seems to do something daft in every second game
 
Before this season he wasn't really making much mistakes, and if he was he was able to rectify them quite easily. This season with Jagielka injured he's had to take up the role as the CB leader at the age of 21 which is a lot of pressure and something which he isn't quite ready for, even though I still think he will end up being a captain at some point.
 
SteveW said:
He looks like a ridiculous talent and it's hard not to love the idea of him partnering Smalling. But he sure does make a lot of mistakes. What do people put it down to? Lack of a top class established partner to guide him?
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The fact he isn't actually a very good defender?
 
I don't get the hype, maybe he will become a top defender, but at this moment he certainly isn't.
Why do we need someone to play in the same position as Smalling when Smalling is far better, what we need is someone better to play in Blind's position and that's not Stones
 
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