John Stones

sullydnl said:
Very talented and I've seen him look a very good defender before this season. He's had a rough time this year but given his age and the manager he's playing under....

I'd happily see us sign him, especially if Mourinho is our manager.
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How does this logic work though?

The only manager he's played under in the PL is Martinez. So you've seen him look a good defender, but it's the manager's fault that he doesn't look a good defender? Even though his manager has been the exact same person the entire time...

Mourinho has never managed him, and isn't the manager of Manchester United...and there's absolutely nothing in Mourinho's career to base the idea he would develop Stones into a good defender on...even if somehow the idea that being managed by Martinez is what makes Stones rubbish wasn't complete and utter nonsense.

I mean have you actually stopped to think about how little sense this makes? The main factor in whether John Stones will improve as a defender, is John Stones

SATA said:
I have not seen him much but i thought he was hot property on the caf only 6 months ago. Why the sudden turn around?
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The usual thing that happens on here where it takes the caf football experts 6 months longer than the rest of the world to start noticing what a player is actually doing during a game. It's been happening on here since forever.

In real life I remember right back at the start of the season, most people I talk to about football being amused at the idea of Chelsea wanting to spend £40m on a defender who wouldn't improve them at all defensively.
 
noodlehair said:
How does this logic work though?

The only manager he's played under in the PL is Martinez. So you've seen him look a good defender, but it's the manager's fault that he doesn't look a good defender? Even though his manager has been the exact same person the entire time...

Mourinho has never managed him, and isn't the manager of Manchester United...and there's absolutely nothing in Mourinho's career to base the idea he would develop Stones into a good defender on...even if somehow the idea that being managed by Martinez is what makes Stones rubbish wasn't complete and utter nonsense.

I mean have you actually stopped to think about how little sense this makes? The main factor in whether John Stones will improve as a defender, is John Stones.
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It's pretty obvious that the entire Everton defence has had an awful season. Given everything we know about Martinez I don't think it's unfair to lay *some* of the blame at Martinez' door.

That doesn't mean it's impossible for a CB to play well under Martinez (as Stones previously has) or that Stones isn't largely to blame for his own mediocrity this season. It just means that it's one mitigating factor to consider when judging his defensive game.

As for Mourinho, I would argue that he is generally an excellent coach defensively and I would expect most defences to improve under him. As such, I don't think it's a stretch to say he might improve a young defender.
 
I think theres a case to be perhaps be put forward potentially that Stones head could have been turned last summer, and expects to leave once more at the end of this season that can have an effect on players and perhaps Stones in his case, Even Ronaldo had a dip of a season (by his standards) in his last year with us before joining Real for example.
 
sullydnl said:
It's pretty obvious that the entire Everton defence has had an awful season. Given everything we know about Martinez I don't think it's unfair to lay *some* of the blame at Martinez' door.

That doesn't mean it's impossible for a CB to play well under Martinez (as Stones previously has) or that Stones isn't largely to blame for his own mediocrity this season. It just means that it's one mitigating factor to consider when judging his defensive game.

As for Mourinho, I would argue that he is generally an excellent coach defensively and I would expect most defences to improve under him. As such, I don't think it's a stretch to say he might improve a young defender.
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Some of the responsibility is always with the manager, because the manager's job is to manage the players...but that works both ways. You can't place all the blame with Martinez when Stones plays like a useless brainless idiot, as so many people seem to want to do...yet not give him any credit at all for bringning Stones through in the first place or for when Stones was supposedly playing so well (I thought he was pretty suspect last season but there you go).

With Martinez, you have people now trying to blame him entirely for Stones's form, due to him supposedly being such a terrible manager, who are no doubt the same people who just a couple of years ago were waxing on about what a great manager Martinez was and how he's so much better than Moyes and has brought Everton into the modern era, etc. etc.

I can't think of any examples at all of Mourinho taking a young player who's poor at defending and making them into a good defender. Mourinho usually just makes sure he has good defenders who can organise themselves. Except for this season when he made Chelsea's defence look worse than Everton's.

I've not at any point got the Stones hype to be honest. I just don't think he's very good...at least not yet. He is young, and he likes dicking around with the ball...that's about it. United need a defender but I can't imagine we'd have been better defensively this season with Stones for example.

I think this is part of the problem with Everton in general. They have a number of players who just aren't nearly as good as the media and a lot of people seem to have decided they are (Barry, Stones, Coleman, Barkley, McCarthy, etc.), so now it's some massive surprise that Martinez is struggling with them. I don't get why it's a surprise. I see a set of midtable/upper midtable players, being managed by someone who got his last club relegated. A better manager might do better with the same players, but I still don't see how they'd be better than upper mid table. I mean we're 6th and I can't think of any Everton players I think would improve us all that much...anyway I'm going off topic so I'll shut up.
 
Skills said:
Evans was better on the ball, and a far better defender. It's a fecking joke if we sign Stones for anyone near the prices quoted.
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I'm agreeing with the general census against the price for what you're getting but Evans isn't a better defender nor he is has good on the ball.
 
noodlehair said:
Does Martinez tell Stones to deliberately defend badly?
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His tactics make it harder for defenders to defend thus more likely to make mistake.
noodlehair said:
How come all centrebacks managed by Martinez haven't magically gotten better as soon as he's stopped managing them?
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Ashley Williams? Monk? His Wigan defense was basically all over 30 so not much future for them after Martinez' departure by default.
 
Stuff like not tracking Martial for our FA cup winning goal has nothing to do with tactics, though. It's just a lack of awareness of what is about to happen/happening, and positioning. I've seen him make a fair number of mistakes that are similar, where it's really not a case of him taking on attacks all on his own with no help from anyone else like some hero put in the crossfire by Martinez. They were just poor pieces of defending. Again, he may obviously ion out those mistakes with time, and it could be a case me catching him in bad form, but I think too much is being made out of this Martinez tactics angle. From the bits and pieces I've seen, of course.
 
Martinez is an easy excuse for his mistakes. The fact is that many of his mistakes happen when he's n the ball. That has nothing to do with tactics. ball watching has nothing to do with tactics.
 
I think he will go for similar figure to the Chelsea bid. 35-40m
 
Snow said:
His tactics make it harder for defenders to defend thus more likely to make mistake.

Ashley Williams? Monk? His Wigan defense was basically all over 30 so not much future for them after Martinez' departure by default.
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Tactics don't really change all that much how a centreback should defend, though. Spinning around in a circle 3 times then passing the ball to the opposition striker, or conceding a goal because you decide to go for a ball you have no hope of reaching, or because you didn't position yourself correctly, don't become not your own mistakes just because your manager likes his team to pass the ball a lot, or likes his team to press. They are mistakes

The only possible thing you can put on Martinez with any certainty at all is that he likes his defenders to play out from the back whenever they can, but a) a LOT of managers like their defenders to do this, including most of the non rubbish ones, b) Everton's other defenders seem to be able to do this without pratting around like they think they're in a playground.

I just don't get the need to blame Martinez for the faults and liitations of an individual player. Is it because people just want to believe Stones is amazing, or is it because people suddenly really hate Martinez?

The main defence of Stones poor form and errors is his age, and it's actually a perfectly legitimate defence in itself when you consider that a lot of very good defenders were ropey as feck at 21. Why does there have to be this imaginary scenario where everything silly Stones does is because of his manager? All people are doing is setting him up for another fall when he leaves Everton, or Everton replace Martinez, and it turns out John Stones is stilll John Stones when someone else manages him. Like for example when he played for England and the opposition scored because he decided to dick around with the ball and then tripped over...did Martinez phone him before the game and tell him to do that? Or could it just be he's a young defender who has a lot of rough edges to iron out of his game?
 
noodlehair said:
Tactics don't really change all that much how a centreback should defend, though. Spinning around in a circle 3 times then passing the ball to the opposition striker, or conceding a goal because you decide to go for a ball you have no hope of reaching, or because you didn't position yourself correctly, don't become not your own mistakes just because your manager likes his team to pass the ball a lot, or likes his team to press. They are mistakes

The only possible thing you can put on Martinez with any certainty at all is that he likes his defenders to play out from the back whenever they can, but a) a LOT of managers like their defenders to do this, including most of the non rubbish ones, b) Everton's other defenders seem to be able to do this without pratting around like they think they're in a playground.

I just don't get the need to blame Martinez for the faults and liitations of an individual player. Is it because people just want to believe Stones is amazing, or is it because people suddenly really hate Martinez?

The main defence of Stones poor form and errors is his age, and it's actually a perfectly legitimate defence in itself when you consider that a lot of very good defenders were ropey as feck at 21. Why does there have to be this imaginary scenario where everything silly Stones does is because of his manager? All people are doing is setting him up for another fall when he leaves Everton, or Everton replace Martinez, and it turns out John Stones is stilll John Stones when someone else manages him. Like for example when he played for England and the opposition scored because he decided to dick around with the ball and then tripped over...did Martinez phone him before the game and tell him to do that? Or could it just be he's a young defender who has a lot of rough edges to iron out of his game?
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They do because the game is played mentally. Ighalo was the leading goalscorer in the PL but now hasn't scored in like 15 games or something. Is he suddenly a worse player? I don't think so.

I'm not arguing with you specifically on Stones but I'll argue with you the effect that a manager and tactics and general team performance can have on a individual.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Stuff like not tracking Martial for our FA cup winning goal has nothing to do with tactics, though. It's just a lack of awareness of what is about to happen/happening, and positioning. I've seen him make a fair number of mistakes that are similar, where it's really not a case of him taking on attacks all on his own with no help from anyone else like some hero put in the crossfire by Martinez. They were just poor pieces of defending. Again, he may obviously ion out those mistakes with time, and it could be a case me catching him in bad form, but I think too much is being made out of this Martinez tactics angle. From the bits and pieces I've seen, of course.
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Wasn't he the one that challenged Herrera?
 
After this season, it's actually the best time to buy Stones:

1. His value is lowered seeing he got some bad form. Lower transfer fee = less pressure
2. He would be hungrier to prove himself
3. His price may still be high and other teams may be skeptical, while we have this aura recently that we don't care about the price tag as long as our manager/scouts rate him. Thus leaving us in the best position to gamble on him ( bad or good, it's for different discussion)

Stones is a good player nevertheless, the thing is he was at one time overrated. He is comfortable with the ball that's special. He showed he has potential as a CB. Just need guidance so he can fulfill the potential, improve decision making and ease out the error. IMO Stone is the kind of defender is made for top team despite whether he can reach world class level or not. He outstays Everton since Martinez doesn't know how to organize the defense while getting defensive average manager aka Moyes would misuse his abilities.
 
We have great potential with defenders coming through. I would like to think that they are taken into consideration. If you spend 40million on stones, then he plays but he got into the Everton team because it's easier and hey, it might make them a lot of money. I think we've good options personally.
 
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ti vu said:
After this season, it's actually the best time to buy Stones:

1. His value is lowered seeing he got some bad form. Lower transfer fee = less pressure
2. He would be hungrier to prove himself
3. His price may still be high and other teams may be skeptical, while we have this aura recently that we don't care about the price tag as long as our manager/scouts rate him. Thus leaving us in the best position to gamble on him ( bad or good, it's for different discussion)

Stones is a good player nevertheless, the thing is he was at one time overrated. He is comfortable with the ball that's special. He showed he has potential as a CB. Just need guidance so he can fulfill the potential, improve decision making and ease out the error. IMO Stone is the kind of defender is made for top team despite whether he can reach world class level or not. He outstays Everton since Martinez doesn't know how to organize the defense while getting defensive average manager aka Moyes would misuse his abilities.
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Want to bet? This is Everton they will rinse us for as much as they can get. They have new backing, tv money, they don't have to sell.
 
Snow said:
They do because the game is played mentally. Ighalo was the leading goalscorer in the PL but now hasn't scored in like 15 games or something. Is he suddenly a worse player? I don't think so.

I'm not arguing with you specifically on Stones but I'll argue with you the effect that a manager and tactics and general team performance can have on a individual.
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The more likely explanation is that Ighalo was in a good run of form and just isn't actually as good as his start to the season suggested. Which is similar imo to what's happened with Stones.

I don't disagree at all that confidence and mentality is a major factor. You see it all the time. We have it a lot at the moment with Van Gaal and our players...but it's rarely entirely down to the manager or their tactics, and with a player who's only had that one manager, it's difficult to assume a dip in that player's performance or confidence is down to being managed by that manager. Impossible in fact. It's daft logic.

Even with United, a lot of the problems are down to players LVG thinks are good enough to do certain jobs, not being, rather than them lacking the confidence to do it.

The other thing, or couple of other things, is that firstly, Stones doesn't look like a good player playing without confidence...he looks like a defender who reads the game very poorly and is if anything too confident when he has the ball. It looks to me more like he's been believing too much of what was getting said about him rather than reallising he has a lot of work to do on improving himself.

Secondly...I watched him before this season and didn't think he was nearly as good as anyone was making out. The mistakes were still there, the poor positional play and lack of awareness was still there. It just wasn't being pointed out as much. The bit that's gotten noticably worse this season is the counter productive pratting around with the ball, which I doubt is something Martinez has started telling him to do. If anything he'd be telling hm to cut it the feck out and just pass the bloody thing.
 
He may develop well over the coming years but at the moment as far as I'm concerned he's the central defender version of Welbeck, he has all the extra things which are bonuses and make him a more rounded player but he's not very good at the basic things which are most important and which you want a player in his position to be good at
 
noodlehair said:
Secondly...I watched him before this season and didn't think he was nearly as good as anyone was making out. The mistakes were still there, the poor positional play and lack of awareness was still there. It just wasn't being pointed out as much. The bit that's gotten noticably worse this season is the counter productive pratting around with the ball, which I doubt is something Martinez has started telling him to do. If anything he'd be telling hm to cut it the feck out and just pass the bloody thing.
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He won a free-kick 10 yards off the edge of his box last weekend and Danny Murphy starting talking about how he loves to see that, that being defenders bringing the ball and wanting to play, completely disregarding Martial or Rashford was about 10-15 yards off him at the start and Stones pratting around on the ball only got him into trouble and delayed playing the easy pass. It's this incessant praise which I think actually encourages Stones to prat around with the ball even more. Rio who is probably the best ball playing CB this country has had in the last decade or so has talked before at length about how he had to tone that side of his game down but no one really seems keen to drum into Stones' head that he needs to defend first and pick his moments better.
 
He needs a manager to put him a system and get him to primarily do the fundamentals for a few years like Smalling. It's rare you'll see a defender playing in his own head so much. Has there ever been a defender who pisses about with the ball more than he does? It's like an adult playing football with kids and deliberately attempting to take the piss. There's not a worse manager to develop under as a defender than Martinez.
 
Important not to take away the on ball aspect of Stones' game though. That "stop pissing about with the ball" attitude can lead to talented players being overly restricted if it goes too far.

If I was, say, Pep or the Barca manager I'd probably see Stones' willingness to keep doing what he thinks is right despite all the mistakes as a big positive.
 
sullydnl said:
Important not to take away the on ball aspect of Stones' game though. That "stop pissing about with the ball" attitude can lead to talented players being overly restricted if it goes too far.

If I was, say, Pep or the Barca manager I'd probably see Stones' willingness to keep doing what he thinks is right despite all the mistakes as a big positive.
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But any of pep's defenders are prone to making mistakes like him though? You can be good on the ball and still be good at doing basic stuff as a defender. If anything, I would think pep has that kind of defenders.

I don't even think his ball playing is making him less of a defender. It is just that he himself may not be that good at defending. So, people can't blame on ball playing for lack of ability in his defending.

Or cant claim him to be a good defender because his ball playing is good.
 
Don't care how young he is, I don't think there is any need to sign him. I think if we sign a CB it should definitely be an established one because our youth CBs seem to be pretty good. That way the established, older, prime CB can play at his peak and when he is done a youth player can take over the mantle.

Stones looks a mess every time I have seen him play, he is a defender who can't defend and makes mistakes all the bloody time.
 
TitusCrumble said:
Don't care how young he is, I don't think there is any need to sign him. I think if we sign a CB it should definitely be an established one because our youth CBs seem to be pretty good. That way the established, older, prime CB can play at his peak and when he is done a youth player can take over the mantle.

Stones looks a mess every time I have seen him play, he is a defender who can't defend and makes mistakes all the bloody time.
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I would prefer Hummel but we could get someone like a Mangala or Rojo or Lovren. Plus with Stones if we have a manager like Jose there is potential Stones could become a top centre back and we'd have him and Smalling as the bedrock of our team for the next decade. But right now he's not the ideal solution but long term him Shaw and Smalling could be awesome.
 
40/50 million for potential or 30/40 million on Godin who is 30 but will be great for 3/4 years?

we are crying out for leadership and a dominator in our box - Stones isn't that obviously

at the same time Stones reminds me a little of Rio as a 19/20 year old - lovely footballer and could he grow into an excellent defender?

would a Stones/Smalling partnership be a bit weak?
 
buckooo1978 said:
40/50 million for potential or 30/40 million on Godin who is 30 but will be great for 3/4 years?

we are crying out for leadership and a dominator in our box - Stones isn't that obviously

at the same time Stones reminds me a little of Rio as a 19/20 year old - lovely footballer and could he grow into an excellent defender?

would a Stones/Smalling partnership be a bit weak?
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Godin won't come here.
 
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