He's a lot better on the ball then he actually is at defending... But he's very young and has huge potential so I'm sure he'll sort that out eventually. Would still love to have him, would be a great partner to Smalling IMO.
John Stones
- Thread starter ottosec
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Yeah, he let Aguero for that last goal. I'm really not convinced of his defensive abilities at all, really.
Gave the ball away in a terrible area in the run up to Agueros goal when he should have cleared his lines
He's been terrible.
Plays like a right cocky bastard
That is what's annoying his own fans. I still prefer Laporte. Same age, just more advanced.
He's no Matt Miazga, that's for sure.
Aye. Top player.
It's strange to see a young player have a bad patch of form, very unusual, they are normally consistent.
Real talk right here.
I think people are more bothered about his attitude. That he thinks he is the next coming of Bobby Moore. This is more about arrogance than loss of form.
What's the difference between being arrogant and being confident enough to keep playing your game even during poor spells of form?
I think that is where he needs a better manager, I'd rather have a cocky player than a timid one, with the right manager that cockiness would be harnessed to further him as a player.
You have to know when to be confident. What if he is just a bit of a prat?
Agreed. I'm not sure why people have decided he's a great talent. He's a shocking defender. It's different from the likes of Varane, Shaw, and Smalling because even at a young age, they've shown a lot of great defensive traits and just need time and patience (in Smalling's case, playing in his preferred position) to develop and iron out mistakes. Stones looks like he needs to raise his game by a couple of levels at least.This!
I really don't see the big deal at all
Exactly.
Its not only that, but its the price being banded around for him. I actually think he will be a top player one day, but as I said on another page, if we bought him, people will go from Stones with lots of potential to FFS Stones, bring back Jones etc.
Saying that, I think having Martinez as his manager is terrible for him. The guy wont improve under him.
Saying that, I think having Martinez as his manager is terrible for him. The guy wont improve under him.
Terrible defensive manager. Stones could use a bit of LVG spirit kill to level him out.
I know people have a habit of getting over excited about young players who have actualy done very little. The thing with Stones though is that he doesn't just not really do anything that good, he's actually a liability. Every single game he is the weak link and ends up costing his team in some significant way. I can't help but think that a big reason Everton are doing as badly as they are is the weird reliance on him when he's clearly not up to it. Granted he's still young but he's not that young, and he's just got so much improving to do to get anywhere near the level it's been decided he's already at (let alone supposedly going to get to), it's just really hard to see how it's going to happen.
It's a thing with Everton in general though. At some point there will need to be an acceptance that the reason Everton's aren't doing that well, is because their players aren't actually that good. Before that though there'll be the phase of blaming the form of people like Stones on Martinez's playing style/management of course. Even though Stones hadn't even played for Everton when Martinez took over.
It's not fair on him really as soon he'll end up with a shit load of stinging criticism to deal with due to people deciding he is much better than he is and then blaming him for not being. Imagine if he'd signed for Chelsea in the summer. He'd have been ripped to shreds by now.
It's a thing with Everton in general though. At some point there will need to be an acceptance that the reason Everton's aren't doing that well, is because their players aren't actually that good. Before that though there'll be the phase of blaming the form of people like Stones on Martinez's playing style/management of course. Even though Stones hadn't even played for Everton when Martinez took over.
It's not fair on him really as soon he'll end up with a shit load of stinging criticism to deal with due to people deciding he is much better than he is and then blaming him for not being. Imagine if he'd signed for Chelsea in the summer. He'd have been ripped to shreds by now.
If I wanted someone who can't defend but can pass the ball a bit at CB, I'd stick a midfielder in there
Yeah, especially as he's 21 and all.
Sound like a broken record but will still keep saying it. Laporte is the better defender, same age and will be a lot cheaper.
He looks cool and composed, and is good on the ball. With his age and military haircut it's easy to be fooled.
Can see him going the Jack Rodwell road.
Can see him going the Jack Rodwell road.
Haven't seen as much as Everton this year as I normally would but coming into the season everything I'd seen of him suggested he would end up being more than good enough defensively for a top team. Unless he's regressed a lot I'd guess he's probably been unfortunate enough to have a bad season just when everyone's attention has focused on him. It happens. Doesn't mean he's overrated or that he wouldn't be an excellent signing though.
One of those youngsters who needs to move early in order to get put in his place and become a proper professional. Staying at Everton under a weak defensive manager like Martinez is going to make him spoilt and provide him with extremely bad habits going forward. He needs someone who will encourage him to still play his natural game but make him much more responsible defensively. . So not Roy Hodgson but not Martinez either. Someone like Pep would be ideal tbf.
More like David Luiz.
I never understood this 'more comfortable with the ball bs. A defender should know how to defend. The rest is a bonus. Rio, Maldini and co were all comfortable with the ball but we're also great defenders
You don't understand it? I'm sure you do. Destroying will always be easier than creating and accomplishment of both requires paradoxical mind sets. That's why those defenders who not only master the art of defending but can also make a telling contribution to the transition from defense to attack, -primarily through excellent distribution, passing range and composure - stand out as truly great players, rather than just great defenders.
I think people bust their nut over Stones because you can see he has the sort of calm, incisive use of possession that some of the great defenders in the past have had. The raw material is there. If his defending maturity improves, as it should with all young defenders, he could blossom into a sensational center half.
As football becomes more technical, and direct physicality is more heavily penalized by referees, a greater emphasis is going to be placed on this type of skill set.
Even in his first few years here, Rio had a mistake or two in him. By age 25/26 Rio became the whole package. Possibly like Smalling is becoming now.
Defending should always be more important for a defender than passing the ball elegantly.What's the point of playing the likes of Mcfail who would pass the ball elegantly only for him to be constantly humiliated by strikers? 1 successful pass from defense has a small chance of being converted into a goal, 1 mistake from a defender will most likely end up into a goal.
I understand that having a defender whose comfortable with the ball is an asset. However its a bonus rather than his only quality. A defender is there to defend hence the name. Its like having a goalkeeper whose comfortable with his feet but he's not good in saving shots. That's ridiculous
Young defenders will always make mistakes that's normal and part of the learning curve. However he was always a good defender. When he came to United he single handedly kept the defence at place. When he got suspended the defense went to crap. That's how good Rio was
Reminds me of Evans.
I appreciate that you feel quite passionately about your opinion, that much comes through in your post. Yet I don't think it should come at the expense of basic reading comprehension. At no point have I said that a defender shouldn't be able to defend, only be good at passing and nothing else, or compensate for regular humiliations via his ability to pass elegantly.
I generally agree with the content of your post, if not its hyperbolic fervor, but would suggest that anything above and beyond the mastery of defending, such as excellent ball distribution, are not so much "bonuses", as they are significant tactical advantages.
Aside from the curious case of David Luiz, I don't think any great ball playing defenders have risen to the top echelons of the game without a concomitant mastery of the defensive arts. I think it's a fairly rudimentary assumption to conclude that any defenders primary skill set should lie in defending. Otherwise they'd play a different position.
Not his fault that so called football experts have talked him up so much.
It isn't. They are so desperate for a new Rio etc that any English defender will bring that reaction. Then when they realise they aren't they are the first to criticise.
Is h.Same with Stonesis fault not so called pundits lavished him with praise.
Eh?
See the quoted post that's since been edited.
By the time Rio came to United he'd had champions league experience and played in a world cup iirc. And he was a couple years older than Stones is now.
Who knows with that level of experience what Stones could be like.
The idea of having defenders whose able to move elegantly with the ball is not a new thing. Prior to this generation we had the likes of Nesta, Aldair and Rio and prior to them we had Maldini and Baresi. I am sure that people who are older then me can highlight other names.
However all of them had one thing in common ie they knew how to defend. They were defenders and they were judged on that ability. Similarly the likes of Roberto carlos were labelled as good in attacking but horrible in defending. He was sold by inter for that and no excuse were ever made to it. I'm sure that his ball playing skills wouldn't have saved him if he was a CB rather than a WB
I believe that nowadays we are letting too many things slide under the excuse of players being comfortable with the ball. I am not referring to Stones of course whom despite being massively hyped is still a young defender whose got years of improvement left in him. Im referring to players like David Luiz who were allowed to get away with alot of things because of him being a 'ball playing' defender. Im sorry if your not good in defending than you're not a good defender. That means that others will have to work double because of you Its as simple as that.
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