We should stick our oar in. Smalling and Stones will probably be England's CB pairing for some time to come. Shaw will probably be the future 1st pick LB as well. We'd have 3/4 of the England back four, if not all four, since Hodgson seems to fancy Jones over Clyne at RB.
John Stones | Everton say they will reject all bids
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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He's no Alexi Lalas
I think Everton would want around 35m to sell him I reckon.
Disagree. If he moves two of the most highly rated English players of the future generation will have moved to our closest rivals. We should definitely fight for the best English talent IMO.
So more for Stones than many of the world class attacking players that have moved to the PL recently? Actual match winners? That's madness.
I was just reading an Everton forum and they're all saying £40m or £50m. Christ
Did Chelsea fight for Jones and Smalling when they were young and looking like the best prospects? Their back 4 dynamic is differennt to ours. They need to replace Terry in the coming seasons. Cahill will be the experienced CB then with Zouma and Stones the understudies until they prove better. The lack of game time there will prob means he ends up no better than Jones/Smalling btw. Just like what we did to our young defenders....We need the experienced CB general now.
Would take him over all our CBs, except for Smalling. But if we want to challenge straight away he's not the answer...
We have 2 of the best English talents in his position already though. What we need is a consistent experienced defender who is a leader ideally.
And Liverpool were never gonna sell Sterling to us.
I would absolutely love to have Stones at United, but not at this moment in time. The club still has a half-baked defense, and adding another young player wouldn't help alleviate some of the concerns regarding experience and genuine leadership ability at the back, something that could become more of an issue if De Gea leaves this summer or next. Smalling showed some encouraging grown in that department last season, but we can't risk putting all our chips on him. The club needs someone who can slot right in and assume control of the defense, which makes any potential bid for Stones highly unlikely, this season at the very least and maybe next season too.
Would be disappointed if he joins Chelsea nonetheless. He's probably the best defensive prospect England has produced in recent years. The thought of him honing his craft under Mourinho, and leaning on Terry's experience to form a partnership with Zouma, just ahead of Courtois is a bit unpleasant to say the least. Luckily for us, there are some bright central defensive talents around Europe in the form of Gimenez, Rugani, Laporte so even if we miss out on Stones, it wouldn't be the end of the world, apart from the homegrown detail.
Would be disappointed if he joins Chelsea nonetheless. He's probably the best defensive prospect England has produced in recent years. The thought of him honing his craft under Mourinho, and leaning on Terry's experience to form a partnership with Zouma, just ahead of Courtois is a bit unpleasant to say the least. Luckily for us, there are some bright central defensive talents around Europe in the form of Gimenez, Rugani, Laporte so even if we miss out on Stones, it wouldn't be the end of the world, apart from the homegrown detail.
Unless we ship out Evans and Blackett (Loan), it wouldn't make sense as we need a more experienced player too..
Smalling
New Signing
Jones
Stones
McNair
Rojo is cover LB in my eyes for Shaw
Smalling
New Signing
Jones
Stones
McNair
Rojo is cover LB in my eyes for Shaw
The time isn't right. We're in no position to break in a 20 year old week in, week out in three competitions. And 'buying for the future' has been a wasted exercise here for a number of years.
You buy talent like Stones to play it regularly. If the situation was a little different and we weren't desperate for experience and leadership then perhaps, but we're buying at centre half for the here and now.
You buy talent like Stones to play it regularly. If the situation was a little different and we weren't desperate for experience and leadership then perhaps, but we're buying at centre half for the here and now.
So more for Stones than many of the world class attacking players that have moved to the PL recently? Actual match winners? That's madness.
I was just reading an Everton forum and they're all saying £40m or £50m. Christ
It's honestly not THAT ridiculous when you weigh up a number of different factors.
1. He's one of the best prospects in both the PL and the world and he has quite a lot of games under his belt so far for a 21 year old CB in the PL at a team which has been competing for EL spots and in Europe last season.
2. His value to us is paramount, he is our best CB and he's playing in a position which we really need to reinvest in rather than sell our best one, especially one who can be as good as he can become.
3. He's English so he is home-grown and will always have that extra price tag on him.
4. We have no reason to sell. We don't need the money and we need him.
This. Ideal scenario for us would be to let him develop properly at Everton for a few years and then make a move. Unlikely scenario though.
Chelsea tend to buy established players. They're hardly the example we want to follow when it comes to bagging the top English young talents. (Except these days at youth level sadly)
As for what we need, I don't disagree. I don't even know much about Stones. I'm saying that if he is indeed a special talent, we should always be trying to sign those, especially if they're English. I guess it would spend on how highly one rates Jones and Rojo.
That's what I think too. Also, from young CB in Europe I rate Laporte, Varane, Gimenez and Marquinhos (in that order) higher than Stones (although there aren't much differences between any of them) and from them at least Laporte and Gimenez are obtainable. So, missing on Stones - while it would be unfortunate - won't be the end of the world and actually we can sing as good/better young defenders in that position if we need.
But at the moment we need experience, and Stones doesn't give it.
Like most have said.. We need experience right now and if you look at it with a sensible view he has a better career path going there and hoping to be John Terry's eventual successor than fighting it out with our young pretenders and lack of leaders.
We don't need stones, McNair has all the attributes to become a top centreback in the future.
I don't think Rojo is good enough as a CB for us. He could deputy for Shaw. That would leave us with Jones, Smalling and maybe McNair. We can add Stones and an experienced CB if Stones is available this summer. McNair can easily be loaned out for a season for him to get more minutes as I don't see him being ready to play for us consistently if required.
I agree that there are other top quality young CBs around Europe but none of them are moving and even if they do, there will be a host of clubs lining up for someone like Laporte. Stones being English is a big plus as well, considering that he hopefully won't be glancing towards the likes of RM when we actually help them become top players.
That's all spot on but there's just something in my mind that can't rationalize these prices for young English players these days. I mean, we're talking about a still relatively unproven 21 year old kid costing more than Eden Hazard, Alexis Sanchez, Diego Costa, and Fabregas. It's just mind boggling.
I wouldn't mind if we offered Luke Shaw money (mid-high 20's) but anything higher would be a massive, massive risk.
Oh aye, i agree with you. It's quite crazy how we have reached these numbers but i think 30-40m is the price which the top youngsters are going to go for nowadays. Luke Shaw money is probably a good estimation but we like getting the most we can from people...
Yep, right with you on that one. As much as it would suck to lose out on a player who has shown the potential to be a mainstay for England, United's priorities lie elsewhere in terms of his profile. If this was a 25 year old version of Stones who had ironed out most of his flaws, with a couple hundred games under his belt, I'd expect us to be very much in the mix. But there's a natural dissonance in terms of what he offers, and what we need right now.
Also, sometimes it's really easy to get insulated in the narrative that a 20 odd year old player will definitely turn out to be one of the best in the world, and United have been scarred by that in the past. Rather bid for a proven commodity than can be a steady influence so the next 2 to 3 seasons at the very least, than someone who has played just 50 games in the Premier League and is still pretty inconsistent despite being obviously talented.
Sorry, I get your underlying point but I don't agree. Adding Stones and another experienced centerback will be counterproductive because Van Gaal likes to have a settled defense, with all four players starting each game, so you will end up limiting his chance to get experience. At this stage in his career Stones needs to start games and learn from experience, something that Chelsea can offer either as a starter alongside Terry, or someone who can become his successor once he shipped out next after Cole and Lampard (Jose might prove to be ruthless).
We need stability at the back, and can't afford to provide similar chances to him when we already have a leftback who's developing, and a rightback who's fresh to this level of football. If we can get someone like Otamendi that probably sorts our defense out at a high level for 5 years or thereabouts, more than enough time to scout his successor.
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Maybe we can use our good relationship between the clubs to come to an agreement.Oh aye, i agree with you. It's quite crazy how we have reached these numbers but i think 30-40m is the price which the top youngsters are going to go for nowadays. Luke Shaw money is probably a good estimation but we like getting the most we can from people...
Sold you Lukaku, loaned you Moses and Atsu...
Completely agree with this. IMO he is the best young English talent, would walk into our current defence. Would be annoying if Chelsea get him without any competition from us.
I know we need an experienced leader at the back but just think this guy is too good to miss out on.
Edit - and if we have Evans then we may have a bargaining chip (thought I'm aware Martinez rubbished these reports earlier)
Jones was our Stones in many respects. Blooding in young CBs at the age of 21 is not our forte at all. We need experienced quality. We are also bringing in 6 players this summer making that 7 is pointless for me.
I agree in principle with all that is being said. My point is that if he's this Varane type "potentially the best in his position type talent", like was the case with Rooney for example, then in those cases we should make an exception and go for the player. The long term benefits in those cases is too huge to ignore. And that would of course mean we'd have to let go of someone, so we can also add an experienced defender, and I wouldn't have an issue with that either.
But my point was a more general one. I don't know if Stones is that highly regarded.
We need to challenge for the title next year, its either going to be Otamendi or Ramos.
But its his move to us that would be the main reason his potential would never be fulfilled getting no consistent action for the most important of his footballing years. He should stay where he is if he has any sense for another couple of years playing as many games as he can.
I made that comment before Laporte signed his new contract though. I think both would be worth 30m in today's market, similar to Ferdinand for us, it should pay off for whoever buys them.
I posted in another thread about this. If someone like Otamendi comes in, Smalling could well be his partner and Stones could be third choice behind them (I rate him higher than Jones and Rojo). Plus with all the injuries we have, I am sure he will get more than his fair share of games. We had Carrick playing CB for us last season despite have 5 CBs in our first team squad.
Moreover, Evans did fine by being an understudy to people like Rio and Vida. I agree that we don't have that caliber of CBs available, but I think Stones is good enough to be our first choice CB as well. If LVG is true to his words and that everyone needs to fight for his place (that also includes Darmian vs Valencia for the RB spot), then Stones can compete with our other CBs for a shot at being our first choice CB along with someone like Otamendi.
Damn they rejected 20mn. I think 25mn or even add someone on loan there should seal the deal. Looks like he is the defender Jose talked about signing this window and will solve our homegrown player crisis alongwith Begovic. Stones and Zouma can be a top CB pairing for years to come. They are a lot better than Jones and Smalling were when they joined United. Under Jose and Terry's guidance, I think we might have our CB pairing sewed up for another decade.
Terry played all 38 games last season which was insane. Jose is preparing for a Terry injury or may rotate him in some home games. Cahill can play 50%, Zouma and Stones can play the rest 25% each. I would love it if this deal is sewn up soon.
Kalas is already sent on loan to Middlesborough, Christensen to Mönchengladbach. Ake is not a CB.
Terry played all 38 games last season which was insane. Jose is preparing for a Terry injury or may rotate him in some home games. Cahill can play 50%, Zouma and Stones can play the rest 25% each. I would love it if this deal is sewn up soon.
Kalas is already sent on loan to Middlesborough, Christensen to Mönchengladbach. Ake is not a CB.
Think Zouma and Stones could become a great CB partnership for you lot. I would hate it if you got Stones.
It really wouldn't.
Fair enough. I agree in theory, but why sign one of the better centerback prospects around and stunt his development for the foreseeable future by making him third choice in a period of his career where he needs a lot of first team minutes (best case scenario - as a guaranteed starter) to maximize his potential.
That said, what you said later on does make a lot of sense in that he could compete with the likes of Smalling for a starter berth alongside Otamendi. If Stones is able to supplant Smalling from the line-up, him and Otamendi could form a very balanced stopper/ pseudo-sweeper combination like Ferdinand and Vidic. Guess it all boils down to how highly one rates Stones relative to Smalling, who showed a lot of growth last season for what it's worth; and how much player turnover the manager would like to have in a critical season for the club.
I saw another Chelsea fan mention this on Twitter. It's like you think every transfer can be solved by chucking one of your players at the problem. Who would you loan them that would get into their first team?
FWIW, I rate Smalling very highly but I think Stones has that bit of something special in him. He looks so composed for a 21 year old, no matter which opposition he faces. For me, he would be the next best English CB whoever he signs for, and I hope it is us.
Best case scenario would be Everton refuse to sell to Chelsea this season and we can give them Evans for a decent amount and get first choice on Stones. We could then get him next season or the one after that depending on how things unfold for Jones and Rojo.
They need another striker don't they? Think Patrick Bamford could get games for them.
It has worked for a lot of transfers. Sometimes, we even have to give our players on loan to even get rid of someone like Torres.
I was thinking more like Moses but Bamford needs to find a PL club too. Everton doesn't have a good backup for Lukaku and Bamford could really do well there.
Definitely agree with the second part. Stones has the potential to be a Rio Ferdinand type of footballer (well, that might be a bit of an exaggeration maybe but meh !). But right now, he more of a Ferdinand in 1999 kind of player in terms of his development, which poses a big problem. So him staying at Everton for a couple of seasons, and maybe taking the next step in his caeer and developing into what Ferdinand was at Leeds before eventually signing for United would be the best possible outcome. Let's hope Martinez drags his knees with this one.
Sorry, but this is not true when it comes to Smalling. People didn't know him when he came to us so he wasn't rated almost at all.
But everyone who was watching him play that season could see how good he already was and some of the performances were literally WC.
We slowed his development as we used him to often at the full back position and then the injuries came.
He was expected to take over in 2013-2014, but Moyes just made mess of it, but even then he was our best CB.
Last season was his first full season and thats were he convinced me that he is the right choice for us (changed formation 4 times during the season, changed partners almost every 2-3 games, had noone to guide him and had to take the leadership role without experience in that segment, with keeper behind him who is not commanding at all), wasn't affected at all after his red card against City). He is very composed and calm and always was, just look at his tackles inside the box. He is still not WC, but he is developing rapidly now.
I am not taking anything from Stones and Zouma, but they are not better compared to Smalling when he came to us.
Nah they only play with one striker don't they? Not great for his development and I don't think he's good enough for them anyway. The fee will be 25m plus add ons or something in the end. Will be a good signing when it happens.
Another over hyped english prospect.
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