Joao Neves | signed for PSG

[NZT-One]

Well for your first point, height and strength don’t correlate. I’m 5’9 and stronger than my brother who’s 6’2. Not sure why you felt the need to even mention strength. Martinez does alright overall as a CB in the most physical league in the world and he’s not exactly a giant.

Martinez does alright but you don't see us looking to bring in another CB where we ignore his height, do you? Obviously there are exceptions from the rule and obviously you'll have the Kantes and the Cannavaros - but be honest, those are the exception, not the rule. And for every Martinez we decide to put on the field, we have to make sure, that we have aerial ability to set that off. It definitely is possible - but look at out current team, the only players with an above average strength and physicality are Casemiro, McTominay and Maguire. We want to get rid of all of them. And even if we can't get rid, we don't want them in our starting eleven. We need some height and I personally wouldn't want to have just two tall players in one CB and Hojlund.

To your 2nd point. We played that way because we were up against one of three best teams in the world with a team that can’t go toe to toe against them. Just because we played like that doesn’t mean every time we use that formation we’d have to sit so deep and allow the opposition to have the ball so much. We could play 6 at the back and still play front foot football. It all depends on how you ask the players to play. I feel like you’ve just read words and decided their meaning in your head with absolutely no thought into what I may have been alluding to.

The formation we employed against City looked as formidable as it did because we were sitting deep and compact. The formation isn't as important when you are happy with surrendering the ball. From my personal view, you are putting way too much weight on that game and the apparent formation. It was a one off game and ETH countered Pep brilliantly while Pep himself didn't bothered to serve anything unexpectedly. I don't really see how to draw any conclusion from such a match and reading your text seems like you just guess that it would "work" just as well in different conditions. Which is fine as a personal opinion but you shouldn't be suprised when it isn't very convincing. "It all depends on how you ask the players to play." Well, yeah Captain Obvious. The thing is though, when ever we tried something else this season, it didn't look good, don't you agree? Thats why I kind of have a hard time thinking it can get better because "the formation from the City game" was this or that.

I am going to ignore the last sentence because I don't think, this is stuff we should spend time on. I'd try to cut that stuff, it isn't going to help with the reactions.

I think you're absolutely correct and the need for a proper holding midfielder is absolutely far more important. The team that won the league in Portugal didn't have Joao Neves but rather their midfield had a player called Morten Hjulmand in it. I don't foresee a double pivot of Mainoo and Neves functioning at all in the EPL with Bruno Fernandes as the AM. If that did end up happening, then at some point next season you will see posts about how we need to unlock certain players with the addition of a proper holding midfielder.

One of the poster's above mentions the Germany team from 1990 and you can't compare how football was played at International level in 1990 to the positional play and high intensity pressing game that has taken off England in the last 10 years. Guardiola specifically signed players like Walker and Akanji for their pace and athleticism with the aim of controlling the large spaces out of possession. You can't compare the pace and intensity of the current day EPL to how the game was played at international level in 1990.

The only team that I've seen be successful at the highest level by playing a double pivot in the last 5 or 6 years is Bayern Munich. Their double pivot of Thiago and Goretzka was highly effective with support from Kimmich who was playing the hybrid RB/CM role. And Goretzka as a midfielder was more of the box to box combative type that complimented Thiago in midfield.

Agree with every word. I think, there is an overeagerness to add more technical players to the lineup and obviously I get it. But there has to be a balance. I'd love to bring in Neves, but with the emergence of Mainoo, that spot is kind of already taken while Casemiros decline forces us to get into action for his role.

 

[NZT-One]

With Bruno as a 10 in Ten Hag's set up our hand is forced, we have to play with a double pivot. You can try to hypothetically fit him in as an 8 next to Mainoo with a sole 6 in behind but it falls apart every time, it's not a practical set up.

I'm confused as to why you think it won't function at all, Neves and Mainoo is pretty much as good as it gets for a double pivot set up. They both excel in deep areas and they're both equally comfortable, defensively and offensively, in every third of the pitch.

Because a midfield needs at least some capabilites against the ball. Neves seems to be industrious and busy, that is great but he isn't going to cover space, win headers or add some steel when opponents will try to outmuscle us. That isn't a dig at Neves, I'd love him here but it feels like some of you are a little too eager to put more and more midfielders in there for "on the ball"-reasons while seemingly neglecting the "off the ball" reasons. I don't think your take "Rodri wouldn't even have to be tall and strong because he is so good on the ball" is all too convincing, plus City have Stones or Walker to step up - which is also a little different to what we have to offer in defense.

Just for the record, I don't think anybody wants us to bring in Ndidi or something - a pure destroyer. Obviously it would be great when this defensive midfielder has more qualities, just like Rodri for example. But that is the bonus - not the other way around. You must have witnessed us playing without a defensively sound player during all of the late Matic, McFred times, have you?

 

[luke511]

Because a midfield needs at least some capabilites against the ball. Neves seems to be industrious and busy, that is great but he isn't going to cover space, win headers or add some steel when opponents will try to outmuscle us. That isn't a dig at Neves, I'd love him here but it feels like some of you are a little too eager to put more and more midfielders in there for "on the ball"-reasons while seemingly neglecting the "off the ball" reasons. I don't think your take "Rodri wouldn't even have to be tall and strong because he is so good on the ball" is all too convincing, plus City have Stones or Walker to step up - which is also a little different to what we have to offer in defense.

Just for the record, I don't think anybody wants us to bring in Ndidi or something - a pure destroyer. Obviously it would be great when this defensive midfielder has more qualities, just like Rodri for example. But that is the bonus - not the other way around. You must have witnessed us playing without a defensively sound player during all of the late Matic, McFred times, have you?

McFred should never be used as a reason as to why a Mainoo Neves partnership won't work. I don't think that needs explaining really. We need to prioritise technical ability above everything when it comes to midfielders, and if you find a highly technical player that is strong defensively, like Neves, then it's a perfect match. We need a 6/8 and a 6, the 6 can bring the more physical presence whilst Neves can be the 6/8 that fits in to either midfield set up, with or without Bruno.

 

[Adnan]

With Bruno as a 10 in Ten Hag's set up our hand is forced, we have to play with a double pivot. You can try to hypothetically fit him in as an 8 next to Mainoo with a sole 6 in behind but it falls apart every time, it's not a practical set up.

I'm confused as to why you think it won't function at all, Neves and Mainoo is pretty much as good as it gets for a double pivot set up. They both excel in deep areas and they're both equally comfortable, defensively and offensively, in every third of the pitch.

With Bruno as the AM you either complete the midfield construct by signing a holding midfielder along with a interior midfielder like Neves. But I don't believe you go ahead and break your transfer record on a young inexperienced midfielder (albeit talented) in a position that requires a high level understanding to coordinate the game both on the ball and off the ball. So being positionally disciplined and having the tactical acumen in that deeper role is very important, especially in the EPL. Having two inexperienced kids playing the double pivot ahead of a AM like Bruno who plays with high risk in possession is a recipe for disaster.

I think it's easy to see what the likes of City, Arsenal and even Liverpool have done in the last 5 to 10 years where they've developed teams for all eventualities. The aforementioned teams have the ability to dominate the game on the ball, off the ball and also control the aerial threat posed by certain opponent's in the league. I think replicating what they've done is a easy way to get back to competing at the highest level. I think Neves is a very good player, but as you've mentioned, with Bruno and Mainoo in the team it would benefit us more to sign a player who can dictate the game from deeper and also have the positional discipline and tactical awareness to play that role. I think the midfield player who we should target from the Portuguese league is the Argentine midfielder playing at Porto (Alan Varela) who at 22 years of age has the technical game in possession, the tactical awareness of what's developing around him and his ability to cover ground quickly is also pretty good. The only worry surrounding him would be his injury record this season.

I think we have to be a bit more strategic as far as developing the team because as much it sounds good to say 'just give the ball to Neves' like how some us said 'just give it to Pogba'. It's important to create a team that's balanced and us greater than the sum of it's parts.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

We really should try to hit that this year just from the Casemiro, Sancho and Greenwood sales. 30-35M each is still bargain for whoever is getting them. Saudis will pay that for Case. Dortmund better if they want Sancho back. Without his inflated wages, he'd easily be a 50M player. I have my doubts about Getafe / Greenwood because he'll blow way past their record transfer fee but let's see. You'd have laughed if someone said noone would be willing to pay 30M for Greenwood a few years ago.

There are others like AWB, Lindelof etc. who are apparently on the chopping block but not including them right now.

This is my litmus test for the new ownership's competence. If they can't generate atleast 100M in sales, we might as well be in the Woodward / Murtough era.

We're still in the Woodward/Murtough era in terms of players contracts. It will be difficult to shift players for good fees because of the ridiculous wages we pay.

Casemiro is not worth 35m. We'll see if the Saudi's come to the rescue. If they've actually been watching him this season then they probably won't.

Sancho is on anything between 250-350k. Dortmund won't pay him that. They also tend not to pay big fees for players. Do you think Sancho will take a pay cut? Maguire didn't last year and he seems much more like a player that actually wants to be a footballer.

As for Greenwood, we have a very weak hand in negotiations. I think we're looking at 60-70m for all 3 at best.

You mentioned Wan Bissaka and Lindelof who are in the last year of their contracts. I can see there being interest in both of them but not from the types of clubs that will give decent fees. I think there will be bids of under 10m from mid table teams for AWB and we'll get stingy Italian type bids for Lindelof. Both may just sit out their contracts so they can get better moves next summer.

Pellistri, Hannibal (we should keep imo), Eriksen, vdB will not generate a lot money. The former 2 have little experience and are no longer hyped. The latter 2 are overpaid relative to the types of clubs that would be interested in them.

Wages is the issue. We pay average players top end wages. Footballers, human beings in general, don't want to take pay cuts. People will criticise Ineos at the end of the window when once again we fail to make enough cash in outgoings. However, this is legacy of the previous regime that will unfortunately last a few more years yet.

 

[luke511]

Having two inexperienced kids playing the double pivot ahead of a AM like Bruno who plays with high risk in possession is a recipe for disaster.

 

[sherrinford]

I think you're absolutely correct and the need for a proper holding midfielder is absolutely far more important. The team that won the league in Portugal didn't have Joao Neves but rather their midfield had a player called Morten Hjulmand in it. I don't foresee a double pivot of Mainoo and Neves functioning at all in the EPL with Bruno Fernandes as the AM. If that did end up happening, then at some point next season you will see posts about how we need to unlock certain players with the addition of a proper holding midfielder.

That seems unlikely, given that both Neves and Mainoo have earned plaudits when largely operating as their side's deepest midfielder this season. A combination of Neves and Mainoo ahead of a holding midfielder is the configuration that would more likely lead to us not using at least one of them to their fullest potential - as it did with Mainoo on the occasions where he was used as a 'high 8' this past season.

I do agree that a Mainoo - Neves double pivot is not ideal - I don't think there is a truly ideal lineup involving both, as I believe they share the same best position as the player who plays next to the holding midfielder. But I also think both players enjoy having the freedom to move into position as the deepest midfielder and have demonstrated that they can excel when deployed in that role full time. Conversely, I think Mainoo has been shown to be less comfortable when asked to occupy more advanced areas and I haven't seen Neves outwith deeper central midfield positions. This, coupled with the latter actually being very tenacious and energetic - though you would more readily group him with Mainoo as a playmaker, Neves seems very complete and does provide a healthy dose of the kind of qualities you would traditionally want in a partner for an elegant baller - leads me to think that they could be successful in the same side and the best way to utilise the two of them would be as a deep pair, with either one as the designated holder or sharing responsibility for the anchoring position.

The only team that I've seen be successful at the highest level by playing a double pivot in the last 5 or 6 years is Bayern Munich. Their double pivot of Thiago and Goretzka was highly effective with support from Kimmich who was playing the hybrid RB/CM role. And Goretzka as a midfielder was more of the box to box combative type that complimented Thiago in midfield.

I'm not sure what this is meant to signify or how you are judging success or what is the highest level here. Playing a double pivot doesn't exclude the use of a proper holding midfielder. Didn't Sporting, with the anchoring Hjulmand, use a double pivot? As did Porto, with Varela, no?

Real Madrid just won their league and the Champions League and most often used a double pivot. Man City use a double pivot both in possession and in their set defensive shape, just with a different combination of players in each, and generally speaking the now popular fullback-inverting-into-midfield shift usually creates a double pivot. Both Europa League finalists used a centre midfield pair, and one of those sides obviously stormed to the Bundesliga title, where Stuttgart were also successful with one. Bayern use one.

Also, Kimmich didn't tuck into midfield to support Thiago and Goretzka at all when he operated at right back in that Bayern side - he hugged the touchline and overlapped ultra-aggressively.

 

[NZT-One]

McFred should never be used as a reason as to why a Mainoo Neves partnership won't work. I don't think that needs explaining really. We need to prioritise technical ability above everything when it comes to midfielders, and if you find a highly technical player that is strong defensively, like Neves, then it's a perfect match. We need a 6/8 and a 6, the 6 can bring the more physical presence whilst Neves can be the 6/8 that fits in to either midfield set up, with or without Bruno.

A) you missed the point - McFred is obviously not a reason against Mainoo and Neves, it was a statement towards how much we missed someone with defensive capabilities. (Plus I already got another scar this year having witnessed the way Amrabat was sold around here, also as "DM"... I mean, Neves certainly has the stats speaking for him but the Portugese league is a different beast than the PL)

B) We agree that Neves would be great as the 6/8 player but that means, either Mainoo or Neves himself won't be in the starting lineup. Except you plan without Bruno.
I am all up for managing Mainoo's time, he should develop without too much pressure and without being required to play every game for us. But that applies to next year. It isn't ideal - because putting Mainoo on the bench seems wrong and buying a 100 million plus player would also look quite silly when he is put on the bench.

I am with Adnan here - Neves seems a wonderful player and I'd love to be able to bring him in but it seems like right now isn't the right time. Mostly because we already have a teenage prodigy playing more or less the exact role that is seemingly the best position for Neves as well. Whilst we have literally nobody for the Casemiro role and we better should prepare for a Post-Bruno world as well. Shelling so much money on Neves doesn't seem the right move. (Apart from my personal stance that this year and next year we should stay away from anybody over 70-80 million anyways. Too areas to adress and I personally would rather try not to stretch a reset over too much time.)

 

[Redivy]

Joao Neves is in that top 5-6 tier list of young talents under the age of 20. If he is available to us, we need to sign him. We've missed out on the likes of Camavinga, Tchouameni, Bellingham, Gvordiol, Alvarez, Enzo, Caicedo, Haaland etc, and we have had to watch these players out perform expectations and become some of the best in their positions.

This is why we need to strike on the likes of Neves and Yoro.

Neves is totally different to Mainoo. They both show classy touches in attack. Whilst in defense, Mainoo will likely grow into a Carrick type, someone who uses his IQ to cut off passing lanes, and his body type will mean he can be effective when defending set pieces. Whilst Neves will be your combative midfielder, he will be tackling and intercepting the ball frequently. It gives us total flexibility.

We have seen teams like Liverpool and Madrid in the past decade operate with two #8 and one #6

Bruno is turning 30 at the start of next season, and his style of play unfortunately will make it hard for him to age gracefully. We should not pass up on a top top talent because of Bruno, as we need to build for the next 5 years, and not the next 2.

The dream for me would be to pair Mainoo and Neves with Zubimendi. But I believe he does not want to leave Spain. So, I would see if we could get Fabian Ruiz out of PSG.

 

[luke511]

A) you missed the point - McFred is obviously not a reason against Mainoo and Neves, it was a statement towards how much we missed someone with defensive capabilities. (Plus I already got another scar this year having witnessed the way Amrabat was sold around here, also as "DM"... I mean, Neves certainly has the stats speaking for him but the Portugese league is a different beast than the PL)

B) We agree that Neves would be great as the 6/8 player but that means, either Mainoo or Neves himself won't be in the starting lineup. Except you plan without Bruno.
I am all up for managing Mainoo's time, he should develop without too much pressure and without being required to play every game for us. But that applies to next year. It isn't ideal - because putting Mainoo on the bench seems wrong and buying a 100 million plus player would also look quite silly when he is put on the bench.

I didn't, I know what you were trying to say. There were all sorts of reasons why McFred couldn't work as a double pivot, the main one being that neither of them were comfortable with being the deepest midfielder in or out of possession, which isn't the case with Mainoo and Neves, both of them are. Both can play as a 6 or an 8, so whilst one closes down the opposition off the ball on their side, the other is comfortable enough positionally to understand what their role is behind, and it's the same in possession too. They can, without question, play as a partnership because of this positional flexibility and all rounded skill set.

 

[Adnan]

That seems unlikely, given that both Neves and Mainoo have earned plaudits when largely operating as their side's deepest midfielder this season. A combination of Neves and Mainoo ahead of a holding midfielder is the configuration that would more likely lead to us not using at least one of them to their fullest potential - as it did with Mainoo on the occasions where he was used as a 'high 8' this past season.

I do agree that a Mainoo - Neves double pivot is not ideal - I don't think there is a truly ideal lineup involving both, as I believe they share the same best position as the player who plays next to the holding midfielder. But I also think both players enjoy having the freedom to move into position as the deepest midfielder and have demonstrated that they can excel when deployed in that role full time. Conversely, I think Mainoo has been shown to be less comfortable when asked to occupy more advanced areas and I haven't seen Neves outwith deeper central midfield positions. This, coupled with the latter actually being very tenacious and energetic - though you would more readily group him with Mainoo as a playmaker, Neves seems very complete and does provide a healthy dose of the kind of qualities you would traditionally want in a partner for an elegant baller - leads me to think that they could be successful in the same side and the best way to utilise the two of them would be as a deep pair, with either one as the designated holder or sharing responsibility for the anchoring position.



I'm not sure what this is meant to signify or how you are judging success or what is the highest level here. Playing a double pivot doesn't exclude the use of a proper holding midfielder. Didn't Sporting, with the anchoring Hjulmand, use a double pivot? As did Porto, with Varela, no?

Real Madrid just won their league and the Champions League and most often used a double pivot. Man City use a double pivot both in possession and in their set defensive shape, just with a different combination of players in each, and generally speaking the now popular fullback-inverting-into-midfield shift usually creates a double pivot. Both Europa League finalists used a centre midfield pair, and one of those sides obviously stormed to the Bundesliga title, where Stuttgart were also successful with one. Bayern use one.

Also, Kimmich didn't tuck into midfield to support Thiago and Goretzka at all when he operated at right back in that Bayern side - he hugged the touchline and overlapped ultra-aggressively.

I agree with you that both Neves and Mainoo are best utilised as players who are best utilised next to a holding midfielder. Hence why I don't believe it's a good idea to go with the pair as the double pivot. And the issue isn't the double pivot but rather who occupies positions in the double pivot and it's function with and without the ball in a EPL that is being dominated by teams who dominate the ball and then snuff out the opponent's transitions in higher defensive lines with players who have the physicality and athleticism to control larger space out of possession without compromising on technical ability on the ball.

Again I'm not saying SCP or Porto didn't utilise deeper lying midfield players in a two, but those players occupying those deeper positions at the aforementioned clubs were suited to those roles with both Varela and Hjulmand having the positional discipline to play that role and stay disciplined. And the other clubs you mention have also got players who are suited to be utilised in a double pivot with both Man City and Real Madrid having high creativity backed up by a high level when it comes to thwarting counter attacks in larger spaces. Both teams have the technical quality but it's backed up by a very strong out of possession game which sees them contain transitions at a high level. We don't have that ability as a team as things stand and constructing a defense and midfield that can both control the game in and out of possession is the key to success like the teams you've mentioned. Tchouameni who is on the bench a lot of the time at Madrid would be ideally suited to playing in the EPL due to his all round skillset.

Even at Benfica they have players like Florentino Luis and Joao Mario who occupy deeper positions in the midfield and contribute to a high level on the ball. Florentino Luis in particular is a player who is defensively strong as well and can covers ground really well. So with Neves playing alongside one of Luis or Joao Mario there's a balance in the midfield and the youngster is playing next to a experienced head for that particular league. If you want to play a higher defensive line and play the game in the opponent's half like how Arsenal, City and even Liverpool have dominated games, then you can't just overly burden your CBs in defensive transition but your midfielders will also have to cover ground quickly against fast transitions in open spaces. The bar has been raised by the competition and you can't just focus on what we want to do on the ball because the out of possession demands are even greater now.

Kimmich played many games in midfield in that season when they won the champions league. But whether he was playing in midfield or was being utilised out wide as a touch line hugger who got forward isn’t important because he's a player that doesn't just lose his midfield abilities when he's slightly wider. In that particular champions league season, Kimmich was averaging 5.6 longball completions out of 8 with Thiago even more impressive in a central midfield position. Alaba backed that up with 5 out of 8 long-ball completions and also provided the ability out of possession alongside others to quell the transition threat. And why did Flick play Goretzka in midfield next to Thiago? Because quite simply Goretzka's physicality and ground coverage as a box to box midfielder helped Bayern control the defensive transition alongside players like Alaba and allowed the more creative players to combine and connect in a higher defensive line. Hansi Flick's tactics were to squeeze the pitch high which left spaces to exploit in-behind, hence Flick tweaked his line up and brought in Goretzka to play in midfield to better control the defensive transition. And don't forget the role of Thomas Muller who provided extra stability in the advanced midfield role. And Bruno will not play like that and he will instead play with more risk and it's important we're prepared to control fast transitions from midfield and at CB in a higher defensive line.

 

[Rozay]

I don’t see why they cannot play ahead of a holding midfielder as a pair (Neves and Mainoo). Both have enough quality on the ball as 8’s, and it isn’t mandatory to play with a 10 at all. Newcastle don’t play with a 10 and score 5 goals every week. Liverpool don’t play with a 10. Real Madrid built a dominant midfield in Casemiro/Kroos/Modric which had no #10 in it.

Mainoo, at 18/19 scored what, 5 goals in the second half of the season from midfield already at his age. I think his progressive and forward thinking potential is underrated, and there’s no reason to think he cannot develop into a player who gets 10 goals a season from central midfield. He is very good under pressure and while being an 8, he’s an advanced one.

The way I see it, a player like Olise or Amad would ultimately be our 10, operating inside, with supplementary support from Mainoo on the other side. An offensive right back can provide width on the right. With such a set up, both Olise and a right back like Frimpong or Dumfries has the structure to play their natural game, be it Olise coming in-field and Dumfries going forward as they would be supported by a DM and two CMs, but the setup would see that such a midfield is not to the detriment of offensive threat. That’s how I’d prefer to see us set up, with 3 in the middle who can control the game.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I don’t see why they cannot play ahead of a holding midfielder as a pair (Neves and Mainoo). Both have enough quality on the ball as 8’s, and it isn’t mandatory to play with a 10 at all. Newcastle don’t play with a 10 and score 5 goals every week. Liverpool don’t play with a 10. Real Madrid built a dominant midfield in Casemiro/Kroos/Modric which had no #10 in it.

Mainoo, at 18/19 scored what, 5 goals in the second half of the season from midfield already at his age. I think his progressive and forward thinking potential is underrated, and there’s no reason to think he cannot develop into a player who gets 10 goals a season from central midfield. He is very good under pressure and while being an 8, he’s an advanced one.

The way I see it, a player like Olise or Amad would ultimately be our 10, operating inside, with supplementary support from Mainoo on the other side. An offensive right back can provide width on the right. With such a set up, both Olise and a right back like Frimpong or Dumfries has the structure to play their natural game, be it Olise coming in-field and Dumfries going forward as they would be supported by a DM and two CMs, but the setup would see that such a midfield is not to the detriment of offensive threat. That’s how I’d prefer to see us set up, with 3 in the middle who can control the game.

Agree with this, I know nothing about Neves but would love us to setup like this, long term that is. Obviously for now they’d have to work with Bruno.

 

[aeh1991]

People need to understand that getting Neves doesn't mean we HAVE to play him and Mainoo as a double pivot. Injuries can shake things up and tactical flexibility depending on the opposition is something we didn't have with players like McT. A pool of Bruno, Mainoo, Neves and a physical DM would give us many options as we could play a 4-4-2 diamond (with Garnacho as a free roaming SS), a 4-3-3 with Bruno playing RW or false 9, a 4-2-3-1 with one of Mainoo/Neves and a DM, or an attacking 4-3-3 with Bruno, Mainoo and Neves all starting. We clearly lack quality in the midfield, and Neves would allow us to transition to a more tactical team without Bruno by taking over his position over the next 2 years, as well as taking some of the load off Mainoo as a playmaker.

 

[Rozay]

Agree with this, I know nothing about Neves but would love us to setup like this, long term that is. Obviously for now they’d have to work with Bruno.

Perfectly fine for them to work with Bruno for now, given their ages. In fact, given the ages of all 3 players, the transition could be done quite naturally and seamlessly. The idea that both Mainoo and Neves should be in the team every week from next season is probably unwise anyway. Not only Bruno, but Mason Mount will be playing a fair bit ahead of them too.

We do also desperately need a DM though.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Seen enough. Planting my flag and pitching my tent here for the summer

 

[Rozay]

Seen enough. Planting my flag and pitching my tent here for the summer

Welcome aboard.

 

[Cassidy]

I don’t see why they cannot play ahead of a holding midfielder as a pair (Neves and Mainoo). Both have enough quality on the ball as 8’s, and it isn’t mandatory to play with a 10 at all. Newcastle don’t play with a 10 and score 5 goals every week. Liverpool don’t play with a 10. Real Madrid built a dominant midfield in Casemiro/Kroos/Modric which had no #10 in it.

Mainoo, at 18/19 scored what, 5 goals in the second half of the season from midfield already at his age. I think his progressive and forward thinking potential is underrated, and there’s no reason to think he cannot develop into a player who gets 10 goals a season from central midfield. He is very good under pressure and while being an 8, he’s an advanced one.

The way I see it, a player like Olise or Amad would ultimately be our 10, operating inside, with supplementary support from Mainoo on the other side. An offensive right back can provide width on the right. With such a set up, both Olise and a right back like Frimpong or Dumfries has the structure to play their natural game, be it Olise coming in-field and Dumfries going forward as they would be supported by a DM and two CMs, but the setup would see that such a midfield is not to the detriment of offensive threat. That’s how I’d prefer to see us set up, with 3 in the middle who can control the game.

Agree but the elephant in the room is Fernandes

 

[Vault Dweller]

Welcome aboard.

Much obliged!

 

[Kingslayer18]

Im much more interested in having a technical DM than an athletic one. Mainoo and Neves have plenty of work rate and ability to win the ball back. Both are strong in the tackle and tenacious.

If we are playing a single DM, then that player has to be highly technical. They need to receive the ball under pressure and be able to turn and play it forward to one of the other two more advanced CMs. Onana, for example, is not that player. He’s good in a double pivot, but as a single DM, when collecting the ball from the keeper or CBs under any pressure at all, all he does it play it back. With him as the sole DM, it’d be ridiculously easy to stop our build up from the back for most teams.

For me, a Neves, Mainoo, Fernandes midfield would work much better, with both Neves and Mainoo playing as 6/8 hybrids in a double pivot. The collective work rate would provide plenty of adequate defensive screening, and the build up would be much more fluid, as both are able to receive in tight spaces, and play progressive passes.

I know the sort of player you are after. It’s that Rodri type. Someone big and strong, but also able to dictate a tempo from deep and play through the lines. But what makes Rodri so good is that latter part. Being big and strong just takes him to the next level, but it isn’t the most important part of his game. He’s also a complete rarity, and cannot be replicated with much more limited players like Onana, who still necessitates playing a double pivot.

We all agree on getting Neves, and I agree that it makes sense to have the other signing be a player who is a more purely defensively minded midfielder. But the qualities I’m looking for there are technical ability, press resistance, passing, positioning and reading of the game. I’d be looking for the sort of player that wins the ball by stepping into the right positions and intercepting it, than winning it by brute force. An intelligent, deep lying playmaker type, who can’t be bullied off the ball, and has vision and passing range. Those qualities will have a holistic impact on the play of our team as a whole. A player like Onana is just far too limited for a top team in my opinion.

I’m going to go all the way back to 1990 to illustrate how unimportant I think height is in consideration of creating an effective midfield. West Germany, the winners, played three primary midfielders of Matthus (5’9”), Hassler (5’6”), and Littbarksi (5’5”), with an auxiliary midfielder in Berthold at a towering 6’1”. I’m pretty sure Mainoo just hit 5’11” or 6’. I just don’t think it’s that important. But I’ll concede you do need height in your team, and traditionally I’d want two fairly physically imposing CBs. In my ideal system I’d move Martinez to be an inverted LB, basically an auxiliary CB and have a much taller LCB. Or vice versa, sign a LB that plays as an inverted LB and had some height.

Just look at United in the modern PL era and a list of our best central midfielders. Keane, Scholes, Carrick, Hargreaves, etc., only Carrick is over 6ft. And those players formed the basis of our best modern era sides. The taller players we’ve had since, Pogba, Matic, Fellaini…..couldn’t hold a candle to them.

What we need above all are intelligent, technical players. Not physical, athletic ones. The athletic part is a bit of a red herring anyway. Neves is very athletic. He runs constantly, and gets stuck in. He’s just not tall.

If we wanted a player that combined that tall, strong physique with technical ability then we had to sign Rice. That’s also why he cost 100m.

I understand your point on the sole DM needing to have the requisite technical ability. Maybe Onana is not the right player for that role, as while he's not bad technically, he is maybe not the best player to receive from the back and progress play through the lines. However, Neves can be the one who drops deep and collects the ball from the CBs. He can then either dribble or pass through the lines ahead to Mainoo and Bruno ahead. Onana would then drop back and take up space that Neves has vacated. That could work and overcome the shortcomings in Onana's technical ability. I think you may be looking for a DM like Alan Varela, who has those attributes you are referring to. I would also look at Mats Wieffer who is quite technical and Lucas Gourna Douth. I'm still skeptical that a midfield 3 of Bruno, Neves and Mainoo would work in our league. Whilst Mainoo and Neves are not bad athletically, they are still growing into their bodies, Bruno is not press resistant and I don't know if there is enough speed in that midfield. Plus height is a factor, we don't have the tallest team already which is why McT plays, to give us athleticism and height. We can't ignore that cause I don't think we are moving Martinez to an inverted LB role. He probably starts as LCB when fit, which means we need a tall RCB.

The EPL has got faster and more athletic since the days of Scholes, Keane and Carrick. Hence even Pep overloading his side with athletic CBs to combat height and exert more defensive control. I think we need a tall, athletic, technical DM. A unicorn, yes but we need our scouts to look out for such a player. I think that player could be Gray.

 

[Rozay]

Agree but the elephant in the room is Fernandes

I don’t think it’s such an elephant tbh, due to them being so young and Bruno not being that young. I think it will work itself out in a natural timeframe.

 

[Cassidy]

I don’t think it’s such an elephant tbh, due to them being so young and Bruno not being that young. I think it will work itself out in a natural timeframe.

Fair point

 

[Lash]

Seen enough. Planting my flag and pitching my tent here for the summer

Welcome fellow disciple.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Welcome fellow disciple.

 

[Ali Dia]

This is the one for me this summer too. He’s gettable and he’s class. Choo Choo!

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Ineos don't want to spend loads on one player, don't have loads of money and seem to want British/ PL proven players....

Redcafe? Camp out in the most expensive transfer link with no PL experience

 

[Rozay]

Ineos don't want to spend loads on one player, don't have loads of money and seem to want British/ PL proven players....

Redcafe? Camp out in the most expensive transfer link with no PL experience

Ineos also want to get the best players, want to sign the next Mbappé, challenge for the PL and CL within 4 years…

Redcafe? Doesn’t restrict conversation to players who cost less than 30m

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Ineos also want to get the best players, want to sign the next Mbappé, challenge for the PL and CL within 4 years…

Redcafe? Doesn’t restrict conversation to players who cost less than 30m

Listen I'd love him I really would be the reality is we don't have a lot of wiggle room between FFP and I don't think we will see the mass exodus of sales because of the book value and wages of the players

 

[AltiUn]

Listen I'd love him I really would be the reality is we don't have a lot of wiggle room between FFP and I don't think we will see the mass exodus of sales because of the book value and wages of the players

They say that every year and every year we spend north of £150m

 

[Rozay]

Listen I'd love him I really would be the reality is we don't have a lot of wiggle room between FFP and I don't think we will see the mass exodus of sales because of the book value and wages of the players

What is the wiggle room that we have with FFP?

We won’t be going anywhere if our plan is to pick up free transfers and punts. Literally not one team that we are trying to catch has adopted such an approach, so INEOS, who solely manage the football side of operations, may as well pack up and go home if their plan to build a top team is buy a bunch of cheap players and avoid the best ones because they are (unsurprisingly), expensive.

 

[Escobar]

Ineos don't want to spend loads on one player, don't have loads of money and seem to want British/ PL proven players....

Redcafe? Camp out in the most expensive transfer link with no PL experience

Don’t want to spend much and buy PL players is contradictionary

 

[Powderfinger]

I really like Neves as a player (have been following him since Arsenal are also interested) but he really doesn't make a lot of sense for United. His best position by far is the same as Mainoo's best position and he has many of the same strengths and limitations.

Abstract away from the shiny toy aspect of getting this specific player and there is just no way anybody with their head screwed on straight would look at United's situation and think "Well, we have a somewhat constrained budget, a lot of positions of need to address in our squad, and our best young talent and cornerstone player is a teenage very technical all action 8....lets spend 100m on another teenage very technical all action 8."

There are lots and lots of good players out there. They key to recruitment is to prioritize where you need to improve, identify the profiles and characteristics you want in each of those areas of the pitch in order to play a particular style of football, and select the good players that truly fit those profiles and possess those characteristics. Getting attached to bringing in one specific player who doesn't really even fit a profile you need because of...reasons...is the type of thinking that has really led United astray in the past.

 

[Rozay]

I really like Neves as a player (have been following him since Arsenal are also interested) but he really doesn't make a lot of sense for United. His best position by far is the same as Mainoo's best position and he has many of the same strengths and limitations.

Abstract away from the shiny toy aspect of getting this specific player and there is just no way anybody with their head screwed on straight would look at United's situation and think "Well, we have a somewhat constrained budget, a lot of positions of need to address in our squad, and our best young talent and cornerstone player is a teenage very technical all action 8....lets spend 100m on another teenage very technical all action 8."

There are lots and lots of good players out there. They key to recruitment is to prioritize where you need to improve, identify the profiles and characteristics you want in each of those areas of the pitch in order to play a particular style of football, and select the good players that truly fit those profiles and possess those characteristics. Getting attached to bringing in one specific player who doesn't really even fit a profile you need because of...reasons...is the type of thinking that has really led United astray in the past.

Well that would depend on how we want to play, which is also under review. You wouldn’t say that if we were talking about Liverpool over the past 7 years. However, you would have said that if we were talking about Liverpool 10 years ago. It remains to be seen how we want to construct our team, but midfield is one of the most important parts of that team, so we are allowed more than one good midfielder.

What does everyone think we’ve been tracking him so closely for over the past two years? Just in case Mainoo goes to Madrid this summer?

 

[davbon]

Listen I'd love him I really would be the reality is we don't have a lot of wiggle room between FFP and I don't think we will see the mass exodus of sales because of the book value and wages of the players

It is a big fat myth that we don't have FFP space. FFP will be no excuse this Summer, and if we want to compete, we also need to compete for the best talents, which Joao Neves undoubtedly is.

 

[cpresc]

I really like Neves as a player (have been following him since Arsenal are also interested) but he really doesn't make a lot of sense for United. His best position by far is the same as Mainoo's best position and he has many of the same strengths and limitations.

Abstract away from the shiny toy aspect of getting this specific player and there is just no way anybody with their head screwed on straight would look at United's situation and think "Well, we have a somewhat constrained budget, a lot of positions of need to address in our squad, and our best young talent and cornerstone player is a teenage very technical all action 8....lets spend 100m on another teenage very technical all action 8."

There are lots and lots of good players out there. They key to recruitment is to prioritize where you need to improve, identify the profiles and characteristics you want in each of those areas of the pitch in order to play a particular style of football, and select the good players that truly fit those profiles and possess those characteristics. Getting attached to bringing in one specific player who doesn't really even fit a profile you need because of...reasons...is the type of thinking that has really led United astray in the past.

"abstract away"

This guy softwares.

 

[Powderfinger]

Well that would depend on how we want to play, which is also under review. You wouldn’t say that if we were talking about Liverpool over the past 7 years. However, you would have said that if we were talking about Liverpool 10 years ago. It remains to be seen how we want to construct our team, but midfield is one of the most important parts of that team, so we are allowed more than one good midfielder.

What does everyone think we’ve been tracking him so closely for over the past two years? Just in case Mainoo goes to Madrid this summer?

I do agree that it depends on how you want to play. But I think that's even more reason not to go all-in on this particular player at the moment since nobody really knows the answer to that currently and forcing him and Mainoo into the same team, while certainly possible, does actually have some significant implications for the rest of the setup.

From what I can tell, all big clubs have been tracking Neves at least since his emergence into the Benfica first team in winter 2023, if not beforehand. These clubs generally try to track the best young players in the world at every position (and he is certainly one of them).

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

What is the wiggle room that we have with FFP?

We won’t be going anywhere if our plan is to pick up free transfers and punts. Literally not one team that we are trying to catch has adopted such an approach, so INEOS, who solely manage the football side of operations, may as well pack up and go home if their plan to build a top team is buy a bunch of cheap players and avoid the best ones because they are (unsurprisingly), expensive.

https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files...d-20230630-20f-taxonomyifrs-2022-tmbsf-v1.pdf

Page 6 is our official accounts for the last few years shows big losses, I assume further down there is an addendum to allowable one off costs to exclude and I assume it's done operating (loss)/ profit which shows us over the 105 in a 3 year cycle unless anybody can point me to allowable expenses?

 

[Rozay]

I do agree that it depends on how you want to play. But I think that's even more reason not to go all-in on this particular player at the moment since nobody really knows the answer to that currently and forcing him and Mainoo into the same team, while certainly possible, does actually have some significant implications for the rest of the setup.

From what I can tell, all big clubs have been tracking Neves at least since his emergence into the Benfica first team in winter 2023, if not beforehand. These clubs generally try to track the best young players in the world at every position (and he is certainly one of them).

And I would like to think that we would not act upon our interest unless the player and his profile fits into whatever plan we may have. I wouldn’t say ‘nobody’ knows how we want to play, I imagine those involved in buying the player for a potential record fee would know.

It’s also too early for us (fans) to say what our long term vision is for Mainoo too. He can play all three central midfield roles, and as he develops, may show a propensity to one or the other.

 

[crackers0seven]

Be great summer if we could get a strong young core with players like him,olise and Branthwaite or yoro coming in. Then depending on departures add a left back and back up striker that wouldn't break the bank. If we could get near 100m for casemiro sancho and greenwood be fantastic.

 

[Lash]

I really like Neves as a player (have been following him since Arsenal are also interested) but he really doesn't make a lot of sense for United. His best position by far is the same as Mainoo's best position and he has many of the same strengths and limitations.

Abstract away from the shiny toy aspect of getting this specific player and there is just no way anybody with their head screwed on straight would look at United's situation and think "Well, we have a somewhat constrained budget, a lot of positions of need to address in our squad, and our best young talent and cornerstone player is a teenage very technical all action 8....lets spend 100m on another teenage very technical all action 8."

There are lots and lots of good players out there. They key to recruitment is to prioritize where you need to improve, identify the profiles and characteristics you want in each of those areas of the pitch in order to play a particular style of football, and select the good players that truly fit those profiles and possess those characteristics. Getting attached to bringing in one specific player who doesn't really even fit a profile you need because of...reasons...is the type of thinking that has really led United astray in the past.

This isn't really true at all, as we've seen Mainoo has done his best stuff further forward. Neves's best stuff is deeper or in the middle of the park.

Why would they not think if we're going to play with 2 CM, we should have two of the best talents in the world in those positions in our squad?

Our midfield is obviously an area we need to improve, he has the profile and characteristics to improve on literally every CM we have bar Mainoo?

Plus, coming from a side who quite obviously needed a proper no 9 and bought Havertz .