Come to an agreement with the other club that we agree on a fee and the deal becomes effective July 1st I guess.
Joao Neves | signed for PSG
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Come to an agreement with the other club that we agree on a fee and the deal becomes effective July 1st I guess.
For those saying we need to do this before the Euros, absolutely no chance. Not only this, but no big deals will be done for big players competing for the biggest nations. The official line will always be that ‘I am fully focused on the national team now and do not want any distractions’.
or we sort now so he can fully focus on the euros knowing his future. You could argue both ways.
That's why I asked the question. Where does Mainoo feature with Neves in the team.
--- Mainoo ----- Bruno ------ Neves ----
??
We have literally played Eriksen, Mount and McTominay beside Mainoo and behind Bruno at various stages over the last year. Neves would be a fantastic replacement for any of them.
Mainoo becomes the deeper lying link between defence and attack, which I think will become his most effective role, and Neves provides the steel and closing we need in the middle of the park, with no shortage of quality on the ball to go with it.
Those 3 with two up top, new DM behind dropping into the back 4 with the two full backs pushed right up providing the width.
Noted. Had no idea we've played those midfield combos before.
I do like what I've seen so far of Neves on youtube so I'm happy we are interested in him.
Not really. ‘Sorting it now’ means interrupting him during camp with the national team. He is already away with the national team, he doesn’t only go away on the first day of the tournament.
would be amazing if we could actually sort the midfield out after all these years of shite
I’d much rather blow that sort of money on someone proven and about to hit their prime, like Bruno Guimaeres. That is not to say Joao Neves isn’t a great talent.
I know people will moan about certain aspects. But can we just imagine if we had a centre back pairing of Todibo/Martinez with a double pivot of Mainoo/Neves. Good luck getting the ball back.
I like him but every time we spend above £60m on a player, it never work out for us.
Imagine Madrid decided to not buy Camavinga because they had Kroos, Modric, Casemiro, Valverde.
Then imagine they decided to not buy Tchouameni because they had Camavinga, Kroos, Modric, Casemiro and Valverde.
And then decide to not buy Bellingham etc etc
Or if they decided that they didn't want Mbappe because they had Vinicus Jnr.
If we do sign Neves, people are going to be so surprised when they see how good he is defensively. He isnt tall, but he has significant muscle mass for his age, especially his legs and that is the difference between Neves and most other 1.75m players.
I would sign Inacio and Neves. I would play Inacio in the inverted left back role and that would also give us another 6'1 player to help with set pieces (Inacio has room to grow in this department).
If we have a defense and midfield of:
LB: Shaw/Inacio
CB: Martinez
CB: Yoro/Branthwaite
RB: Dalot
CM: Mainoo
CM: Neves.
Then you've got 4/6 players who are at least 6 foot tall. We also have a striker who is big and aggressive who does contribute to defending set pieces.
We won't be a small team. And thats not including whoever the third midfielder is in this scenario.
I would sign Inacio and Neves. I would play Inacio in the inverted left back role and that would also give us another 6'1 player to help with set pieces (Inacio has room to grow in this department).
If we have a defense and midfield of:
LB: Shaw/Inacio
CB: Martinez
CB: Yoro/Branthwaite
RB: Dalot
CM: Mainoo
CM: Neves.
Then you've got 4/6 players who are at least 6 foot tall. We also have a striker who is big and aggressive who does contribute to defending set pieces.
We won't be a small team. And thats not including whoever the third midfielder is in this scenario.
Pretty much. People wonder “how they do it” but it isn’t rocket science: they buy top young talents BEFORE they truly “need” them and then let them develop at their own pace while saving money on fees. .
That was a completely different situation to the one we’re in.
Madrid already had a complete midfield that was winning champions league titles, but it was also ageing. The players they brought in were all supremely gifted both techinally and athletically and had a stable environment that could support them as they learned and developed.
We know very little of what environment Neves will be entering at United, what role he’ll play or how suited he’ll be to play it. What’s likely however is that he’ll be subject to even more pressure and scrutiny here than those players were. And he won’t have the likes of Kroos, Modric or even Casemiro to hold his hand while he finds his feet, or even a tried and tested functioning system to slot into for that matter.
I know Bruno was great in the last 5-10 games of the season and his stock is high at the moment but I would move him on if we can get good money for him. Will use the money to buy this guy (If he is as good as touted) and get another solid DM from our midfield fund. My midfield six/seven will be:
DM/Collyer,
Neves/McTom Mainoo/Mount
I would play Mainoo slightly higher up the pitch as I think he can be a great asset there with his ability to keep the ball under pressure and has very good vision and passing. As he has shown, he can also get crucial goals when he is in a more advanced position. His long term position may be deeper in the midfield but currently he lacks the speed and physicality to move up and down the pitch. A more advanced role will suit him perfectly. Neves/McTom Mainoo/Mount
That midfield six/seven has enough versatility and talent to form a very good combination. If given time, they can grow together to be one of the very best.
I might be getting greedy but it would set our midfield for years (yeah, cliched) if we can prise away Adam Wharton from Palace for the DM spot.
I think its true that the environment will be more challenging at United than it ever was at Madrid, but my point was mainly due to fact people are stating we shouldn't sign Neves because we have Mainoo and they occupy similar positions.
I actually think when we have multiple young players, being able to interchange them during the season would help both of their development. I think it is inevitable that Mainoo will hit a period of bad form as most young players do experience, and having midfield options of Bruno, Mainoo, Neves, Mount, Casemiro* will allow us to make the appropriate interchanges.
*I would keep Casemiro unless we get a bid that's too good to refuse. I think in a more stable team with fresh legs around him could see him return to 2022/23 form.
So do you not agree that both have demonstrated that - though their ideal position would be alongside a no.6 - they can excel as the deepest midfielder? I think both have shown the positional discipline to operate as the holding player and that wouldn't be among the concerns with them lining up as a pair. Of the aspects you touch on, I think the overall athleticism and ability to cover ground quickly wouldn't be particularly ideal, but it also wouldn't be particularly lacking due to Neves being notably industrious and gritty. From limited viewing, I'm not sure Varela really excels in that respect either. Rodri is an intelligent, strong and cynical defender, but he's slow and inadequate covering large spaces and that was evident in his first season replacing Fernandinho - coming into a side who really relied quite heavily on his predecessor's unreal ability to cover ground. Guardiola solved the problem by refining the system and showed there is no absolute prerequisite for the deeper midfield players to particularly excel in controlling larger spaces in transition.
Florentino Luis doesn't spend his entire time in games guarding against counterattacks. He will sit in and cover in front of the back four in the instances where Neves has opted to forage forward with the play. The majority of the time, though, he will occupy a more advanced area or make runs forward himself while Neves positions himself as the first midfield receiver. Consequently, the latter is predominantly the player positioned in front of the centre backs and burdened with delaying or stopping an advancing opponent following a loss of possession. The same has been true on the couple of occasions I've seen him paired with Kokcu, who is also more of a playmaker, more attacking and less combative and athletic. If we were to use Neves as a no.6 as part of a midfield two, we would essentially just be asking him to do exactly what he has been doing anyway.
It really shouldn't be overly difficult to setup a side to accomodate a Mainoo/ Neves pairing, simply by adhering to conventional framework along the backline - a lot of the talk of anchoring midfielders requiring unreal ground coverage stems from teams trying to utilise a backline involving only two defenders while having sustained possession in the opponent's half and both full backs playing in midfield or high and wide.
Kimmich did play both in midfield and fullback, but when used on the right he didn't provide any specific support to the centre mids. And yes he did attempt plenty of long balls and is generally a forceful and speculative passer, but I'm not sure of the relevance here - I simply reject the idea that his deployment at fullback was in any way a bespoke aid in that Bayern side's deeper midfield unit functioning, as you seemed to state? Goretzka was in the team because he was obviously the most natural partner for both Kimmich and Thiago, providing verticality in the no.8 role to compliment their want to get on the ball and progress the play with their passing from the no.6 position. In the team for his physicality and ground coverage as a box to box midfielder - yes, absolutely. Helped Bayern control the defensive transition - well, no, not especially. As with Neves and Florentino Luis, the midfielder primarily tasked with quenching counterattacks was, naturally, the deeper of the two - Thiago or Kimmich.
With regards to Fernandes, for me our primary issue defensively for much of last season was in the very poor setup of the attacking quartet - specifically the disinterest of Rashford and ill-discipline of Fernandes leading to both often wanting to be responsible for covering or pressing a centre back, simultaneously, while lining up behind a striker - compounded by Casemiro being a complete liability in all facets of the game. I'm hoping we can implement something more sensible next season.
I know i've made my feelings known already but i'm desperate for this signing to happen. This is a signing we simply need to make. We do not have this profile in the team. Combative but also excellent on the ball and capable of controlling games. Dont haggle. £85m is more than fair. Even lower than I expected.
I agree both Neves and Mainoo would excel next to a more positionally disciplined midfielder. And it's why I believe the most important aspect of the midfield is it's composition. And with both Bruno and Mainoo already being options in the team and also having a very promising batch of young midfielders coming through the ranks via the youth system who fit into a similar role as Joao Neves, it doesn't make a lot of sense to sign a player in a position for a huge sum of money when we would be better served signing a more positionally disciplined deeper lying midfielder to raise the level in possession and also raise our level in rest defense which should be made up of both the CBs and at least one midfielder.
I don't believe Rodri is slow at all and having watched him at Atletico Madrid and Villarreal previously, I created posts about(around 2019) how he was a perfect fit to play for us in a deeper lying role and the combination of technical quality and his physicality makes a real difference to any team that wants to play out from the back, squeeze the pitch high in a compact high block and also defend transitions in a higher line. Fernandinho did have the edge when it came to covering ground quickly but the difference wasn't that big. And Guardiola refined his system by bringing players in who could control defensive transitions in 1v1 situations. Players like Ake and Akanji were added to a team that already had Kyle Walker in the first line along with Rodri in midfield. City's rest defense is strong, much stronger than ours and that then provides them with a strong platform to thrive in possession and sacrifice defensive stability for goals.
I'm not sure which Florentino Luis you have been watching but he's someone that has a nose bleed once he goes over the half way line. The stats below are from Fbref and they clearly back up the eye and point to him and Joao Mario being the positionally more disciplined midfielders whilst Joao Neves is playing as the one Rodger Schmidt is giving the freedom play as the roaming playmaker in midfielder. It's a role that has become more and more common in recent years and I've even written numerous posts about signing such a player before the emergence of Kobbie Mainoo who fits that profile. And also take into account that Benfica are the most dominant team in their league along with SCP, and are just better than the majority of the teams bar one.
The statistics below point to Neves playing with freedom whilst the likes of Florentino Luis and Joao Mario occupy more disciplined roles in their own defensive third with their work in the opponent's half being limited. Neves is not playing as the DM in that team but a role that sees him given a lot of freedom of movement. Both Mainoo, Neves and even Bruno at times are utilised zas the first receiver in midfielder and Kokcu is another example under Arne Slot at Feyenoord, but they aren't DMs but Rather they're midfielders who are utilised as deep roaming playmakers who are given freedom of movement.
Neves
https://fbref.com/en/players/c2a15a27/Joao-Neves
Florentino Luis
https://fbref.com/en/players/881cd6be/Florentino-Luis
Joao Mario
https://fbref.com/en/players/f0021247/Joao-Mario
I haven't seen any of Neves other than one or two youtube highlights. I have seen a bit more of Adam Wharton and think he looks very good and also very classy (maybe my bias for a left-footed CM). I see some people here describing Neves as more of an 8 whereas I see Wharton more of a 6. So given a choice of 50-60M (maybe?) for Wharton vs 90M+ for Neves, and you want to choose Neves, then why? What makes you rate him that much higher than Wharton? (I suppose this would be a question for those who have seen a lot of both of these players)
I don’t get this idea that we need a DM to ‘cover large spaces’. That’s exactly what we don’t want our DM doing anyway. Centre halves that can cover large spaces - yes, absolutely. However, large spaces in midfield was exactly our problem this season and our shape should be far more compact than that anyway.
In short, we do not want ‘large spaces’ in the centre of our midfield!
I think Collyer starting next season alongside Mainoo is a strong possibility. Only my opinion though, not based on anything other than intuition.
Agreed.
The idea is to ensure that the defensive line plays as high as possible; to reduce the space between them and the midfielders, compactness allows for more control offensively and ability to congest spaces quickly when defending, obviously a high line has its risks but the benefits of it outweighs any negatives.
I would prefer us to take a chance on Wharton, personally.
The CBs cover the wide spaces and the designated midfielders contain the central space. If we eventually play a higher line, those spaces will have to be contained, because if you commit a high volume of players forward with the high press as a failsafe without having a strong rest defense, then you will come a cropper against teams who transition quickly and effectively. And that rest defense is made up of at least the CBs and one midfielder.
City, Liverpool and Arsenal have or have had great balance in that regard. Unless people want us to carry on playing a more Conservative brand of football, the aim should be to try and dominate the game in all phases like the aforementioned teams. But from reading some posts on here it seems some are only interested in what the team does on the ball.
So would you say that players like Rodri, Jorginho and MacAllister cover large areas of space?
Rodri absolutely has the ability to cover a larger space from his central midfield position. Jorginho isn't someone who can cover large spaces hence he had other midfielders at Chelsea who were better equipped to deal with such situations, Kante being that player. And MacAllister has never been that player with Caicedo being the one that was the more defensive of the two and was also wanted at Liverpool for a similar role.
Ive watched Utd sign lots of players on recent years, Varane, Casemiro, Mount, Hojlund, Sancho Amrabat, Martinez, Antony, and I don't think I've ever really envied any of the signings when they happened.
However, if you sign Neves, I defo will.
I will caveat that though and will say that I agree with @Adnan that with the emergence of Mainoo, I'm not sure he's the ideal fit alongside him.
I think he'd fit in like a glove at Arsenal alongside Rice, who would be an ideal foil for him. We have the height all throughout the team already so don't need to worry about thay, have a lovely gaping hole alongside Rice and Odegaard where he would fit in, have Jorginho for another season that would be an excellent mentor. I'm not sure how serious our interest is but I just hope it's real.
Again, I have to agree with Adnan, if i was doing the Utd squad planning I think Wharton would be more complimentary alongside Mainoo long term, and id be targeting him. I think he too is a fantastic prospect, but for Arsenal, he might just be a bit too similar to Rice.
However, if you sign Neves, I defo will.
I will caveat that though and will say that I agree with @Adnan that with the emergence of Mainoo, I'm not sure he's the ideal fit alongside him.
I think he'd fit in like a glove at Arsenal alongside Rice, who would be an ideal foil for him. We have the height all throughout the team already so don't need to worry about thay, have a lovely gaping hole alongside Rice and Odegaard where he would fit in, have Jorginho for another season that would be an excellent mentor. I'm not sure how serious our interest is but I just hope it's real.
Again, I have to agree with Adnan, if i was doing the Utd squad planning I think Wharton would be more complimentary alongside Mainoo long term, and id be targeting him. I think he too is a fantastic prospect, but for Arsenal, he might just be a bit too similar to Rice.
I think you've seen how you've gone about developing your Arsenal team and with Declan Rice already at the club it makes more sense for you to potentially sign Neves. It absolutely makes more sense for us to sign Wharton who imo should be our #1 target from Palace.
Rodri is a long way from being a Kante and Jorginho no longer plays for Chelsea and MacAllister no longer plays for Brighton. They both play in the holding midfield roles now, and are not really exposed because their teams don’t leave ‘large open spaces’ in the centre of the park.
It was mentioned on commentary in just about every game this season that we’ve had suicidal tactics and left huge spaces between our midfield and defence that made us easy to attack. It was unanimously agreed to be a terrible set-up and not something that we should be doing. Other top teams appear to compress the field, and commit players forward as you have mentioned by pretty much playing all 10 in the opponents half, not by playing a low block and then sending 7 men into the final third on the basis that they have a DM that can cover the space. Because they don’t, and can’t.
Wharton looks class and definitely a player we should be interested in. I do think that he could play as the deepest midfielder with two others who have the liberty to rotate and cover all areas on and off the ball. I see no reason why those two can’t be Mainoo and Neves.
Honestly, I'd agree. Its not that I don't think Neves wouldnt work at Utd, but I think for an ideal fit you'd need to do more jigging of the team. Whereas I think Wharton would compliment Mainoo more and offer better balance.
I think you could make something work, I'm more thinking about the signing that drops straight in and compliments Mainoo more and offers more of what Mainoo lacks.
If you have a midfield or Wharton - Neves - Mainoo, and a front 3 of Gamacho - Hoijlund and say Olise, does that get you 80+ goals a season you reckon?
The only reason it wouldn’t would be because the attacking players simply don’t score enough goals, at least not yet. The answer to that question being ‘no’ does not necessarily indicate a structural issue at all. It is more likely down to Hojlund and Garnacho not being able to score more than 10 each yet. If they both take the next step though and Hojlund becomes a 25 goal striker (the #9 will take the penalties too if Bruno wasn’t there), Garnacho scored 15 and Olise scored the 15 he is capable of, then for sure, they can hit those figures.
The key difference is, in theory, they will hit those figures with the team having a far more secure midfield than it does currently.
And while I appreciate the natural question that may be raised regarding creativity sue to Bruno not being there - I think a team that controls more of the ball and keeps the cameras going more in one direction than both will create and score more chances. What United need to stop is being dragged into what your former player describes as a game of ‘you ‘ave a shot, we ‘ave a shot’. This is a game that United get dragged into regardless of opposition, home and away. Whether lower half teams, or lower league teams, our matches resemble tennis matches, and that needs to stop. Get a grip of the game first and foremost, and the most of the attacking done in the match will be from your team which should increase your probability of goals. But of course, if our forwards are all raw teenagers then we probably won’t score 80+ goals regardless of set up.
I think it’s more about the price though not mainly about the setup. I really like Neves and want it so bad to see partnership of Neves and Mainoo. But to be £85m or £100m worth a risk, player needs to be an established international starter.
Tchouameni was actually already established France national team DM starter at young age before he joined Madrid. Similar to Rice who already an established England national team DM starter at young age, which is why there are clubs thought that £100m was worth the risk. Camavinga was available cheap for a player who is not a starter in international team. Basically, if Neves cost the same as Camavinga €30m or even double €60m who are both a young talented who are/were not an established starter in international team, it would have been a better value to accommodate the risk.
Listen, I think Utd could make it work, my point was more that to make it work you are probably talking a lot more rejigging. Whereas if you signed a Rice type, which I think Wharton might be closer to, you could drop him in straight away, and a Wharton - Mainoo - Bruno midfield could be more balanced without as much rejigging needed in different areas.
I'm not saying these players are identical, but as I said before, if i was looking to build a midfield, I'd class Rice with Wharton, and Mainoo with Neves, so ideally you'd pair 1 of the first pair with 1 of the 2nd and have an Odegaard / Bruno type midfielder as the 3rd. That's just the way I'd do it without having to buy too much in other areas.
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Snap their hand off at 85m. Ship Case out to Saudi for more than he's worth, and we've got an absolute bargain of a swap.
Dunno why people think we’d sign him. Top talent but Asif we have the money to spend it on 1 player when we need more positions sorting.
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