Joao Miranda

We don't need more youth. We have enough projects at the back. With Rio and Vidic gone we need an older head to help be a leader. Not one of our CB's would be an automatic starter at the club and that's a serious issue. I can't say Miranda is top my wishlist, but I can see why we're going for him. He's one of the best CB's in Europe imo.

The only issue is his age. But if in the short time he's at the club he gets us back into Europe and bags a few trophies then it'll be a worthwhile investment, perhaps overpriced but we're Manchester United. We can afford to overpay as long as it means we get results. A short term fix imo is required at this point at CB.
 
Cina said:
Varane would cost a lot more than £30m.

I think Godin's better but you could argue either way.

What is it with you and these mind boggingly shit stats you're using to try and prove something? F*cking hell, anyone who actually watches the games can see Miranda has been a far better player in the last 2-3 years than any of the above.
Click to expand...
Are they mind bogglingly shit because you disagree with them?
 
JefferiesTube said:
7.41 Jones 15xCB
7.27 Smalling 12xCB
7.25 Vidic 29xCB
7.14 Miranda 45xCB
7.12 Evans 20xCB
6.85 Ferdinand 19xCB

Personally I would rather stick with Evans, Smalling and Jones and not just assume 29yo Miranda is better because he played for a strong team under a strong manager. If he was some WC beast of a player, he would not be 5th or lower in pecking order of Brazilian CBs.
Click to expand...
Let me guess, whoscored.com? They are saying that ball retention and crossing are Jones' strengths. Makes you wonder.
 
Ling said:
Let me guess, whoscored.com? They are saying that ball retention and crossing are Jones' strengths. Makes you wonder.
Click to expand...

Yeah he's using Whoscored.com.

Not really a big fan of WhoScoreds rating system, it's utterly flawed to compare players from different leagues anyway. It should always be used as a rough guide rather than a definitive counter argument.
 
Ratings systems are shit in general. A crappy byproduct of the FIFA/Football Manager generation. The best way to judge a player is to watch the damn games.
 
Adam-Utd said:
I think that's the point though. Some people would rather spend £30M on a young talent like Varane who will sted us well in the future. £30M for a 29 year old is very high, especially a defender. Not saying he would not be worth it, but if he fails to adapt to the english league it's big money wasted and little resale value.

They would realistically let him go for around £20M I would expect.
Click to expand...

We have young talent in defence, we don't need more, we need experience.
 
Cina said:
Ratings systems are shit in general. A crappy byproduct of the FIFA/Football Manager generation. The best way to judge a player is to watch the damn games.
Click to expand...
Player rating should never be used in arguments, however, there are some pretty useful statistic that can show you what that player does, at least at some extent.

RedSky said:
Yeah he's using Whoscored.com.

Not really a big fan of WhoScoreds rating system, it's utterly flawed to compare players from different leagues anyway. It should always be used as a rough guide rather than a definitive counter argument.
Click to expand...

Yea, whoscored rating system is flawed, never liked it. They have useful statistic, rating isn't one of them. I'm bigger fan of Squawka, more accurate imo. Anyway, statistic is like bikini. There's a pretty good reason why clubs send scouts on matches and not using third company databases.
 
I will fall off my chair in shock if we a) even sign this guy and b) pay anywhere above £15m or so if we actually do. I can't remember ever hearing a less likely rumour.
 
Miranda 12/13 season = 7.02
Miranda 11/12 season = 6.53

Passing accuracy for past 3 seasons = 80%, 70%, 75%.
 
Cina said:
Ratings systems are shit in general. A crappy byproduct of the FIFA/Football Manager generation. The best way to judge a player is to watch the damn games.
Click to expand...

Some rating systems work ok. But the issue is that you can be a crap player playing in a team of excellent players and crap players rating will be decent because of the players around him. The same can be said for good players in crap teams. You always have to apply some common sense when it comes to rating systems in football.

What we know about Miranda:

He played 2880mins (out of a possible 3420) last season in La Liga for Atletico Madrid. He started and completed 32 games. In those games Atletico kept 17 clean sheets and conceded 20 goals. Atletico conceded 13 goals against the top ten teams when Miranda started, keeping 7 clean sheets. In the 32 games Miranda played, he was involved in 2 losses (Levante and Almeria away fixtures).

In comparison:

United had 13 Clean Sheets in the PL last season. We conceded 43 goals in 38 games. Against the top ten teams we kept 4 clean sheets and conceded a total of 28 goals. We finished the season losing 12 games.
 
It's mainly our midfielders fault that we concede often but anyway there are a lot defenders out there I would prefer especially as he will be 30 next season
 
Cina said:
Well, Jones was in a similar position when we paid £16m, very highly rated and a lot of people thought we actually got the better of the two players at the time. There's just no guarantee with youngsters, especially defenders who generally peak later than wingers and forwards, and whose youthful tendencies are more costly to the team.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go for experience, something SAF seemed largely unwilling to do in recent times with our midfield and defense, and look at the position they're in now. We're clearly in need of a top, experienced center back. £24m is probably too much for a 29 year old but if van Gaal thinks he needs someone like that in the heart of our defense then I trust him on it.
Click to expand...

hebegebe said:
We have young talent in defence, we don't need more, we need experience.
Click to expand...

I agree with both, we do need experience, but for £30M Euros on a 29 year old not experienced in England, it's a big risk. For all we know Simeone's team could be making him look better than he is due to the defensive unit. Maybe a player who looks better for a lesser team would be a better choice.
 
RedSky said:
Some rating systems work ok. But the issue is that you can be a crap player playing in a team of excellent players and crap players rating will be decent because of the players around him. The same can be said for good players in crap teams. You always have to apply some common sense when it comes to rating systems in football.

What we know about Miranda:

He played 2880mins (out of a possible 3420) last season in La Liga for Atletico Madrid. He started and completed 32 games. In those games Atletico kept 17 clean sheets and conceded 20 goals. Atletico conceded 13 goals against the top ten teams when Miranda started, keeping 7 clean sheets. In the 32 games Miranda played, he was involved in 2 losses (Levante and Almeria away fixtures).

In comparison:

United had 13 Clean Sheets in the PL last season. We conceded 43 goals in 38 games. Against the top ten teams we kept 4 clean sheets and conceded a total of 28 goals. We finished the season losing 12 games.
Click to expand...
When you talk about Atletico you refer to Miranda, but when you talk about United, you mention no player, you only refer to the team.

Do you believe if Miranda had played exactly the same number of minutes for us last season, we would have done any better?
 
JefferiesTube said:
When you talk about Atletico you refer to Miranda, but when you talk about United, you mention no player, you only refer to the team.

Do you believe if Miranda had played exactly the same number of minutes for us last season, we would have done any better?
Click to expand...

Why would I mention a specific United player? We're not comparing players, I'm looking at facts and comparing them with the United team as a whole as I think it shows the bigger picture. It's a squad game after all.

To answer your second sentence. That's impossible to predict so therefore I'm not commenting. We'd have no idea how he'd play under David Moyes or Giggs. We'd have no idea how the partnerships would have worked. Or the settling in period. The only thing we do know is how Miranda has performed at Atletico Madrid. He was brilliant for them in both the League and the Champions League this season.

Whether he could bring that level of performance to United is a different question. We don't even know how the management team will fair this season let alone the players. So predicting such things are impossible. What we do know though is Miranda is a very good and consistent defender. That's something we don't have in the squad when it comes to our CB's, consistency.

The additional issue with Atletico is their sudden rise in form. 12/13 they had a decent enough season but were still pretty poor defensively against the bigger teams. This season they've addressed that and that's why they probably ended up winning the title. In the last two seasons, Miranda has started and finished the full 90mins in 67 games resulting in 36 clean sheets. That's very impressive for a CB.
 
Ling said:
Player rating should never be used in arguments, however, there are some pretty useful statistic that can show you what that player does, at least at some extent.



Yea, whoscored rating system is flawed, never liked it. They have useful statistic, rating isn't one of them. I'm bigger fan of Squawka, more accurate imo. Anyway, statistic is like bikini. There's a pretty good reason why clubs send scouts on matches and not using third company databases.
Click to expand...
Squawka stats

Defensive actions per game
Evans 10
Godin 10
Smalling 9
Jones 9
Miranda 7

Total number of defensive errors
Miranda 3
Godin 3
Evans 2
Smalling 2
Jones 0

Passing Accuracy
Jones 89%
Evans 87%
Smalling 82%
Miranda 80%
Godin 79%

% tackles won
Evans 74%
Smalling 60%
Miranda 60%
Jones 51%
Godin 51%

% headers won
Smalling 68%
Evans 67%
Godin 65%
Miranda 58%
Jones 57%
 
Adam-Utd said:
I agree with both, we do need experience, but for £30M Euros on a 29 year old not experienced in England, it's a big risk. For all we know Simeone's team could be making him look better than he is due to the defensive unit. Maybe a player who looks better for a lesser team would be a better choice.
Click to expand...

The club will be looking at him as an individual player. If Miranda is deemed the best available player in that position, then we should get him. it's as simple as that.
 
JefferiesTube said:
Schweinsteiger 29, better than all our midfielders. Miranda 29, no better than the defenders we already have. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

Steady on, Miranda is comfortably better than any central defender we have, and by a very long distance too.
 
legball said:
Steady on, Miranda is comfortably better than any central defender we have, and by a very long distance too.
Click to expand...

This idea that Smalling, Jones and Evans are all established world beaters on here is very bizarre. Evans can be an excellent defender, but he's still below what a club like us should be aspiring to starting at the back IMO.
 
Last edited:
The over rating of our CB's is getting beyond stupid. I hate comparing players from different leagues. But I think the point needs making, so feck it.

N.B. The below are stats when they are playing as CB and have completed the full 90mins

Code: 
Player...............Games.........CSs......GC..
Chris Smalling........10...........5.........7...
Phil Jones............11...........4........13...
Rio Ferdinand.........12...........4........15...
Jonny Evans...........14...........4........18...
Nemanja Vidić‎.........21...........7........22...
Miranda‎...............32...........17.......20...

This table records only stats against the top 10 teams in the League.
Code: 
Player...............Games.........CSs......GC..
Chris Smalling.........3...........2.........2...
Phil Jones.............6...........1........11...
Rio Ferdinand..........5...........1.........9...
Jonny Evans............7...........1........11...
Nemanja Vidić‎.........10...........2........15...
Miranda‎...............15...........7........13...

Miranda not good enough as a starter. Give me a break.
 
Typical useless stats, Miranda plays with a defensive minded team around him, with a proper midfield infront of him.

He is a good player there is no doubt about that, he would play beside a fit Evans, but he is no better (or not by much) than a fit Evans.
 
RedSky said:
The over rating of our CB's is getting beyond stupid. I hate comparing players from different leagues. But I think the point needs making, so feck it.

N.B. The below are stats when they are playing as CB and have completed the full 90mins

Code: 
Player...............Games.........CSs......GC..
Chris Smalling........10...........5.........7...
Phil Jones............11...........4........13...
Rio Ferdinand.........12...........4........15...
Jonny Evans...........14...........4........18...
Nemanja Vidić‎.........21...........7........22...
Miranda‎...............32...........17.......20...

This table records only stats against the top 10 teams in the League.
Code: 
Player...............Games.........CSs......GC..
Chris Smalling.........3...........2.........2...
Phil Jones.............6...........1........11...
Rio Ferdinand..........5...........1.........9...
Jonny Evans............7...........1........11...
Nemanja Vidić‎.........10...........2........15...
Miranda‎...............15...........7........13...

Miranda not good enough as a starter. Give me a break.
Click to expand...
Those are team stats. Atletico Madrid were a stronger defensive unit because Simeone and his coaches were superior to Moyes and his coaches. Do you think you would see the same stats if Moyes and his coaches were in charge of Atletico last season?

When Greece won the European Championship should we have signed a few of their players? Some are still around I think.
 
It worries me that Miranda can't get in a Brazil squad, let alone team, that is not exactly blessed with great central defenders apart from T.Silva.
 
JPRouve said:
Typical useless stats, Miranda plays with a defensive minded team around him, with a proper midfield infront of him.

He is a good player there is no doubt about that he would play beside a fit Evans, but he is no better (or not by much) than a fit Evans.
Click to expand...

Not to piss on your parade. But that defensive minded team scored more goals than we did in the CL Group stage. By 3 goals.

How long are we going to use this midfield excuse before we actually come to the conclusion, that our CB's are actually over rated and all prone to mistakes and injuries.

Miranda would improve our first team, is he worth 25-30m? Probably not. But he's a very good defender and he'd improve our team and get the best out of Evans/Smalling/Jones etc.
 
RedSky said:
Not to piss on your parade. But that defensive minded team scored more goals than we did in the CL Group stage. By 3 goals.

How long are we going to use this midfield excuse before we actually come to the conclusion, that our CB's are actually over rated and all prone to mistakes and injuries.

Miranda would improve our first team, is he worth 25-30m? Probably not. But he's a very good defender and he'd improve our team and get the best out of Evans/Smalling/Jones etc.
Click to expand...

So our midfield is defensively balanced ? We had one of the worst midfield in the knock out stage this season.

Atl. Madrid is the team who has won the most games with 1 goal. They are a defensive minded team. And there is a very good reason for that their defenders were lame players before Simeone arrival, he knows exactly what kind of player he has, he need to protect them.

Offensively they have very good players and he know that they can score a goal, if needed.
 
He's a player you would throw 10-15 million at. However you look at it he's coming into the latter part of his career and that's not what we need after Rio & Vidic. Ludicrous people think we should be spending 30 million on this guy. Another concern is that many of the A Madrid players have been performing to an extraordinary level under Simeone. He has had them playing above their actual ability and apart from the likes of Koke, Costa etc I'm not sure it's a side you want to be throwing money at.
 
JefferiesTube said:
Those are team stats. Atletico Madrid were a stronger defensive unit because Simeone and his coaches were superior to Moyes and his coaches. Do you think you would see the same stats if Moyes and his coaches were in charge of Atletico last season?

When Greece won the European Championship should we have signed a few of their players? Some are still around I think.
Click to expand...

Just face it. You've been rekt'd son. Your stats are team stats as well, that's the whole point of football stats. Who do you think your player is passing too? Himself? They mean very little as it depends on the coaches tactics, their formations, the use of each player. They're a rough guideline and should always be used as a rough guideline.

The stats I've posted shows that Miranda is obviously a very capable CB. Someone who can work as a defensive unit and deliver results. We know Evans can do the same, he's proven it in the past. We don't know that Smalling or Jones can and don't get facetious with the Greece line. We all know Tournament football is a different breed of animal. I'm trying to point out to you that you're a bit of an idiot if you rely on WhoScored ratings to determine if a player is good or not.
 
Atletico Madrid are like the Borg Collective. Together they function as an efficient unit, they are organized and work well as a group. Simeone is the Borg Queen. If you remove one of the Borg from the collective then they become an individual and do not function as effectively.
 
JPRouve said:
So our midfield is defensively balanced ? We had one of the worst midfield in the knock out stage this season.

Atl. Madrid is the team who has won the most games with 1 goal. They are a defensive minded team. And there is a very good reason for that their defenders were lame players before Simeone arrival, he knows exactly what kind of player he has, he need to protect them.

Offensively they have very good players and he know that they can score a goal, if needed.
Click to expand...

Miranda had only been at the club for a few months by the time Simone took over in 2011. They were hardly lame? :lol:

Yes, our midfield isn't great. But we still performed well in the CL group stages, you said they were a defensive team. I pointed out to you that they scored more goals than us in the CL. That I think is a fair point. You make em sound like Everton! :p

That's harsh on Everton. I meant Moyes Everton.
 
JefferiesTube said:
Atletico Madrid are like the Borg Collective. Together they function as an efficient unit, they are organized and work well as a group. Simeone is the Borg Queen. If you remove one of the Borg from the collective then they become an individual and do not function as effectively.
Click to expand...

Yeah and you seem to think that Smalling and Jones are better CB's than Miranda because WhoScored told you. Despite them playing less games at CB this season than Miranda combined.

We need a new CB, we need an experienced CB. Miranda fits the bill. For what it's worth, I really think Jones is a liability at CB. I see more potential in Smalling than Jones and I think if Miranda did join then his regular playing partner would be Evans. It'd work well imo. I'd rather we go in for Benatia though.
 
JefferiesTube said:
Atletico Madrid are like the Borg Collective. Together they function as an efficient unit, they are organized and work well as a group. Simeone is the Borg Queen. If you remove one of the Borg from the collective then they become an individual and do not function as effectively.
Click to expand...
You would be the worst person in the world to watch a game of football with.
 
RedSky said:
Miranda not good enough as a starter. Give me a break.
Click to expand...
Not good as a starter =/= not the best CB out of bunch. I personally don't rate highly both Smalling or Jones. Evans is good, but is he that quality United needs? Maybe if he had the right partner. Is Miranda the right partner? I don't know. When you look at CB you want consistency. Miranda had one good season. Last one was decent, but this one he improved a lot.
 
The trouble is Smalling, Jones and Evans remain unproven - indeed if I had to judge them now, rather than next season, I don't think any of them are first choice pairing players in the long term. They're injury prone and there's no obvious signs of that improving. Worst still, we've no real experience of them as partners.

So, Miranda then. He has proven that he can be a key player in a top class defence. He's been a better defender for the past couple of seasons than any of our current centrebacks. He's also been able to stay fit.

However, is he a defensive organiser? I really don't know. I'd say Godin's got more responsibility there. So maybe Miranda's not a good buy for us. Barcelona are also in the market for a new partner for Pique, and don't seem to be getting anywhere with people like Marquinhos. Miranda on the other hand seems to have placed himself on the market. Miranda + Pique is an option for them and I can see that working.
 
RedSky said:
Yeah and you seem to think that Smalling and Jones are better CB's than Miranda because WhoScored told you. Despite them playing less games at CB this season than Miranda combined.

We need a new CB, we need an experienced CB. Miranda fits the bill. For what it's worth, I really think Jones is a liability at CB. I see more potential in Smalling than Jones and I think if Miranda did join then his regular playing partner would be Evans. It'd work well imo. I'd rather we go in for Benatia though.
Click to expand...

I think most of us can agree that Hummels and Benetia are on a different level from Miranda ... is the only reason we arent going for Benetia is money?
He appears to be available to the highest bidder...unless either LVG doesnt fancy him or Woodie cannot get him.
 
I'm sorry, but the idea of United paying £30m for a 29 year old defender who's little more than a journeyman is utterly preposterous.
 
ravi2 said:
I think most of us can agree that Hummels and Benetia are on a different level from Miranda ... is the only reason we arent going for Benetia is money?
He appears to be available to the highest bidder...unless either LVG doesnt fancy him or Woodie cannot get him.
Click to expand...

I really don't know. There was a lot of talk a few weeks back that he was signing for Barcelona. But that has since been very quiet. He's been linked with Chelsea, Barcelona, City, Munich. Perhaps we think he's just unattainable given the opposition?
 
eddiebb said:
I'm sorry, but the idea of United paying £30m for a 29 year old defender who's little more than a journeyman is utterly preposterous.
Click to expand...

He has a €30m release clause, that's £24m. As the player himself said, "That's negotiable," and there's no way that Barca for example, if they go for him, will pay anything like that price. It's a Dutch auction - start high, bid when the price gets low enough.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
It worries me that Miranda can't get in a Brazil squad, let alone team, that is not exactly blessed with great central defenders apart from T.Silva.
Click to expand...

Don't know why so many people make statements like that. It's just stupid sry. But you can not rate a player like that. Coaches often made weird choices, national side is always something special. I think there is no world cup squad which has only the best 23 players of the country. Coaches always have their favorite players, players which they don't like or don't recognize and they always going for players, who they know and maybe already played for them. Scolari is exactly that kind of coach and he prefered the likes of Maxwell and Henrique above the Atletico guys and no one else understand it. And you can find weird decisions in most word cup squads every 4 years.
Also Brazil doesn't have good CBs? Silva, Luiz, Dante? That's pretty good, if that is a shit selection, what is England's selection then? With Miranda, I don't think there would be a team at the world cup with 4 better CBs.

I also don't think age is a big issue. He is a CB, not a winger. Terry performed pretty well with 34 years. If you don't have injury problems like Vidic, it's imo not a problem to perform with 32,33 years old. Miranda wouldn't be my favorite, but he is a pretty good CB and by far better than any of our options at the moment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.