[Paul the Wolf]

Lingard could score 100 goals in one game and it'd still have been wrong to start him.

If he could spread them out a bit, would be better, but in the league where I don't like to see him play he's 0 goals and two assists, one of which was the one and only cross for Zlatan

 

[Rado_N]

If he could spread them out a bit, would be better, but in the league where I don't like to see him play he's 0 goals and two assists, one of which was the one and only cross for Zlatan

I was mocking a classic Scholesy quote.

Lingard is a good player doing a good job and the criticism of him is one eyed to say the least but I've long since got bored of trying to argue about it.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Sack Lingard, sign Einstein.

 

[top1whoisman]

Rashford has been playing left wing this season too as well as Rooney - especially now we've now switched to a 433. If Rooney and Memphis left he'd still be back up to the other 4. But despite Rooney not being a lot of people's favourite, he's still offered a lot more than Lingard. We should have two very good players for each position and even then they can interchange, we don't need to have average back-up players any more.

Well let's agree to disagree on the "average" part then. Rashford hopefully ends up as a striker, but he most definitely hasn't produced more than Jesse this season. One underrated factor in Lingard's game is his tracking back, which is second only to Young (who doesn't really play as a winger anymore). While defending of course is not the most important skill for a winger, it sure helps when our fullbacks get support when defending a lead etc.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I was mocking a classic Scholesy quote.

Lingard is a good player doing a good job and the criticism of him is one eyed to say the least but I've long since got bored of trying to argue about it.

Yes, but I wouldn't say he's a good player doing a good job, very occasionally he may, but if he wasn't a local lad he wouldn't get anywhere near the blind protection he gets, I'm also fed up with the "put a good shift in" and was "decent" when he did nothing

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well let's agree to disagree on the "average" part then. Rashford hopefully ends up as a striker, but he most definitely hasn't produced more than Jesse this season. One underrated factor in Lingard's game is his tracking back, which is second only to Young (who doesn't really play as a winger anymore). While defending of course is not the most important skill for a winger, it sure helps when our fullbacks get support when defending a lead etc.

Yes Rashford hopefully ends up as a striker after Zlatan leaves and if Lingard was the same age as Rashford, you could give him more leeway but he isn't and sorry but Lingard hasn't stood out tracking back either. What a winger should be doing is taking on people and putting crosses or balls into the box, which is my biggest criticism of Lingard, he doesn't do it.

 

[AR87]

Yes, but I wouldn't say he's a good player doing a good job, very occasionally he may, but if he wasn't a local lad he wouldn't get anywhere near the blind protection he gets, I'm also fed up with the "put a good shift in" and was "decent" when he did nothing

How do you know that if he wasn't a local lad people would go against him? It's possible for people to think he's a fine squad player independent of him having come through the youth system. Plenty of youth products have received criticism from supporters.

 

[top1whoisman]

Yes Rashford hopefully ends up as a striker after Zlatan leaves and if Lingard was the same age as Rashford, you could give him more leeway but he isn't and sorry but Lingard hasn't stood out tracking back either. What a winger should be doing is taking on people and putting crosses or balls into the box, which is my biggest criticism of Lingard, he doesn't do it.

PL:

As many (2) assists as Zlatan & Herrera, in 582 minutes (Zlatan 1530 & Herrera 1189). One more than Mata.

1.6 shots per game (more than Martial & Rashford, as much as Rooney & Mkhi).

1.7 key passes per game (Rooney 1.4, Mkhi 1, Martial 0.9, Rashford 0.4).

3rd best pass %, bettered only by Smalling & Mata.

More crossed per game than Rashford & Martial, as many as Mkhi.

As many through balls per game as Mkhi & Martial.

17 created chances. Rashford 5, Martial 10, both have played more than Lingard.

Europa League:

Joint top goalscorer (2) with Pogba (465 minutes), Rooney (355) and Zlatan (358), Jesse's played 166 minutes.

Only Rooney has more assists.

More shots per game than Martial, Rashford, Memphis and Rooney.

Better pass % than Martial, Rooney, Mkhi, Rashford

I'd say that in terms of producing something on the pitch, Lingard has easily been as good, or better than Martial, Rashford and Rooney.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

How do you know that if he wasn't a local lad people would go against him? It's possible for people to think he's a fine squad player independent of him having come through the youth system. Plenty of youth products have received criticism from supporters.

Because it's mentioned so many times in this thread. Some people might think he's a fine squad player regardless and yes other youth products get criticism. The ratings might suggest the overall view of the caf.

People protecting him start saying there's a hate campign against him when people criticise, why should anyone hate him, I certainly don't know him and have nothing against him personally. He plays for my team and unfortunately I don't think he's good enough. I couldn't care if he's a local lad or from the other side of the world

 

[AR87]

Because it's mentioned so many times in this thread. Some people might think he's a fine squad player regardless and yes other youth products get criticism. The ratings might suggest the overall view of the caf.

People protecting him start saying there's a hate campign against him when people criticise, why should anyone hate him, I certainly don't know him and have nothing against him personally. He plays for my team and unfortunately I don't think he's good enough. I couldn't care if he's a local lad or from the other side of the world

The ratings mean nothing to me because they're an average which could easily be weighed down by people giving him 1s or 2s because they dislike him so much. He's a perfectly nondescript squad player who rotates in when those better than him aren't firing. That two managers now have seen fit to play him despite more touted options demonstrates that despite his evident shortcoming in end product as an attacker he is providing what they're looking for and what they feel the team needs when he does play.

He shouldn't start bar the odd match here and there, which he likely won't if and when Martial gets his act together. He's a grinder and workhorse that will always have a place in the squad so long as he's able and willing to make runs off the ball to create space for others and is diligent in his defensive duties.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

PL:

As many (2) assists as Zlatan & Herrera, in 582 minutes (Zlatan 1530 & Herrera 1189). One more than Mata.

1.6 shots per game (more than Martial & Rashford, as much as Rooney & Mkhi).

1.7 key passes per game (Rooney 1.4, Mkhi 1, Martial 0.9, Rashford 0.4).

3rd best pass %, bettered only by Smalling & Mata.

More crossed per game than Rashford & Martial, as many as Mkhi.

As many through balls per game as Mkhi & Martial.

Europa League:

Joint top goalscorer (2) with Pogba (465 minutes), Rooney (355) and Zlatan (358), Jesse's played 166 minutes.

Only Rooney has more assists.

More shots per game than Martial, Rashford, Memphis and Rooney.

Better pass % than Martial, Rooney, Mkhi, Rashford

I'd say that in terms of producing something on the pitch, Lingard has easily been as good, or better than Martial, Rashford and Rooney.

My eyes must be deceiving me but as many have said some stats are also deceiving especially the ones missing, for example pass rate and crosses, I'd love to see a video of Lingard's crosses this season and the length of passes in a forward direction and the number of shots compared with number of goals in the league.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The ratings mean nothing to me because they're an average which could easily be weighed down by people giving him 1s or 2s because they dislike him so much. He's a perfectly nondescript squad player who rotates in when those better than him aren't firing. That two managers now have seen fit to play him despite more touted options demonstrates that despite his evident shortcoming in end product as an attacker he is providing what they're looking for and what they feel the team needs when he does play.

He shouldn't start bar the odd match here and there, which he likely won't if and when Martial gets his act together. He's a grinder and workhorse that will always have a place in the squad so long as he's able and willing to make runs off the ball to create space for others and is diligent in his defensive duties.

Yes the odd game here or there, but in the ratings people will also give harsh ratings to other players they don't like as well. If I rate a player I rate him on his performance, not because of any grudge against a player. My rating is almost the same as the average and overall most of my ratings are pretty close to the averages of all the players so it evens itself out like refereeing decisions.
I admit to giving him a very low rating once in the City match, that was probably the worst half of any United player since Taibi.

 

[top1whoisman]

My eyes must be deceiving me but as many have said some stats are also deceiving especially the ones missing, for example pass rate and crosses, I'd love to see a video of Lingard's crosses this season and the length of passes in a forward direction and the number of shots compared with number of goals in the league.

Haven't seen Lingard cross much, no. He's not really your typical old-school winger, he plays pretty centrally and finds Pogba & Zlatan in the middle constantly. Something we've missed for ages really, both Moyes & LvG insisted on attacking down the flanks and crossing it in.

What I do like about him is that he keeps the ball moving with short passes, something that Pogba and especially Herrera and Mata excel at. Lingard also fits in quite well with Zlatan who likes to drop deep every now and then and play back towards goal. Lingard's movement makes him an easy target for passes and through balls.

He should improve his end product but the goals against Palace, Leicester and Fenerbahçe, as well as assists such as the one for Mata's goal against Leicester show there's a lot of talent. Also scoring or assisting every 136 minutes this season isn't bad; Only Rooney (who's played more in central roles) and Mkhitaryan of wingers produce more regularly.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Haven't seen Lingard cross much, no. He's not really your typical old-school winger, he plays pretty centrally and finds Pogba & Zlatan in the middle constantly. Something we've missed for ages really, both Moyes & LvG insisted on attacking down the flanks and crossing it in.

What I do like about him is that he keeps the ball moving with short passes, something that Pogba and especially Herrera and Mata excel at.

Fergie used old style wingers as well and now playing a 433 which suits us better it doesn't warrant the old style type but you need penetration , yes he keeps the ball moving well but with little penetration - just taking the Sunderland match as an example, its was all so congested while Lingard was on the field , when Mkhi and then Martial came on they made penetrating runs into Sunderland's defence that was not happening much and I don't think you can play Mata and Lingard in the same team and Mata is better at that than Lingard

 

[AR87]

Fergie used old style wingers as well and now playing a 433 which suits us better it doesn't warrant the old style type but you need penetration , yes he keeps the ball moving well but with little penetration - just taking the Sunderland match as an example, its was all so congested while Lingard was on the field , when Mkhi and then Martial came on they made penetrating runs into Sunderland's defence that was not happening much and I don't think you can play Mata and Lingard in the same team and Mata is better at that than Lingard

Mata and Lingard shouldn't play together. Mata is better, but he's also a player who needs the ball to have an impact whereas Lingard is a player who links up like Mata, but is more useful in how he creates space for others due to his running. Both drift into similar areas without providing a serious threat in penetrating with their dribble, so the middle gets congested and unless they connect on some quick one touch passes, it's hard for them to unlock defenses.

 

[top1whoisman]

Fergie used old style wingers as well and now playing a 433 which suits us better it doesn't warrant the old style type but you need penetration , yes he keeps the ball moving well but with little penetration - just taking the Sunderland match as an example, its was all so congested while Lingard was on the field , when Mkhi and then Martial came on they made penetrating runs into Sunderland's defence that was not happening much and I don't think you can play Mata and Lingard in the same team and Mata is better at that than Lingard

Yes, different players bring different things to the table. Kind of the idea of a squad. I thought Lingard had a good 1st half and Mkhitaryan had an even better 2nd. We played 9 through balls in the match, Lingard made 4 of those. 21 forward passes out of 36, Mata the same amount 54 passes. As @AR87 said, Mata needs to be the focal point of the attack to be effective and "in the game", Lingard less so.

A high-energy runner like Lingard putting defenders under pressure for 60 minutes helps the fresh subs take advantage of a tired defence in the latter stages of a match.

 

[SirScholes]

To be fair there’s plenty here who think he’s not ”United material”, can’t be arsed to find them all though. At least @SirScholes (I can see a pattern here) thinks he’s useless.

Don't really want to get dragged into another debate, place in the squad yes in the starting 11no chance.
No surprise that we look more threatening with him and rashford out the team

 

[SirScholes]

Yes, different players bring different things to the table. Kind of the idea of a squad. I thought Lingard had a good 1st half and Mkhitaryan had an even better 2nd. We played 9 through balls in the match, Lingard made 4 of those. 21 forward passes out of 36, Mata the same amount 54 passes. As @AR87 said, Mata needs to be the focal point of the attack to be effective and "in the game", Lingard less so.

A high-energy runner like Lingard putting defenders under pressure for 60 minutes helps the fresh subs take advantage of a tired defence in the latter stages of a match.

This is what annoys me, high energy runners, is that all it takes to be a united winger nowadays?
But old arguments here, and lingard did play a Stella ball to Zlatan in a the Sunderland game so I don't want to degrade a player after an alright performance, just doesn't do it anywhere near consistently enough to be considered a regular united winger, for me atleqst

 

[MounchesterUtd]

Not saying the managers are infallible (see Herrerra - LVG) but there is probably a good reason for him to be ahead of the pecking order of all out wingers bar Mkhi and Mata (not a winger per se, but you get my drift)

I think we'll see his appearances and minutes drop once Martial snaps out of whatever funk he's in, or if we end up with Griezzy in the summer, but for now, I can see him holding his spot for the near future - tireless worker, big game player and always up for physicality, what more can you want?

 

[SirScholes]

Not saying the managers are infallible (see Herrerra - LVG) but there is probably a good reason for him to be ahead of the pecking order of all out wingers bar Mkhi and Mata (not a winger per se, but you get my drift)

I think we'll see his appearances and minutes drop once Martial snaps out of whatever funk he's in, or if we end up with Griezzy in the summer, but for now, I can see him holding his spot for the near future - tireless worker, big game player and always up for physicality, what more can you want?

Better end product better decision making consistent performances?

The only reason he is getting minutes is because after mhiki and mata there is literally no one else to play except depay young and the youth team

 

[MounchesterUtd]

Better end product better decision making consistent performances?

The only reason he is getting minutes is because after mhiki and mata there is literally no one else to play except depay young and the youth team

I'd concede better end product, but he definitely has good decision making. Just because he looks a certain way and because of his social media antics, doesn't mean he's a donkey on the pitch.

We should be aiming higher but for the meantime, I have no problem with what we're getting from him. Much rather wait for someone in the Summer than get robbed for another middling attacking mid/winger in January.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

His movement is better than Martial so Mourinho uses him in games where this is a greater advantage than Martial's strengths.

 

[top1whoisman]

Don't really want to get dragged into another debate, place in the squad yes in the starting 11no chance.
No surprise that we look more threatening with him and rashford out the team

This is what annoys me, high energy runners, is that all it takes to be a united winger nowadays?
But old arguments here, and lingard did play a Stella ball to Zlatan in a the Sunderland game so I don't want to degrade a player after an alright performance, just doesn't do it anywhere near consistently enough to be considered a regular united winger, for me atleqst

Squad players do start games, too, you know. Can't play the same XI 60 times.

No, that's not all it takes, but it's one good thing he brings to the team, of course it's easier to attack against a tired defence.

 

[prath92]

He is not a regular right now. He plays when the regulars are off form or when they are injured. That's the definition of a squad player.

People complaining that he is playing often dont seem to understand this

 

[LawCharltonBest]

This argument about managers playing X player is ridiculously flawed and simply assumes that all managers decisions are the right ones.

Even the very best don't always get things right. Perfection isn't something that just pour out of managers which is why there is always room for a bit of scrutinuty no matter how good one is as a manager.

It can be argued that this season alone Mourinho made some bad decisions which he ended up realising and fixing them. Managing a team, especially a new squad is always a learning process no matter the experience.

Mourinho has had to change some of his approches this season. He's had to stop starting Fellaini, start playing Carrick, go for 3 in midfield instead of 2 etc. These are examples that shows that every decisions taken by managers aren't always the right ones.

And to be fair to Mourinho in regard to picking Lingard is that our expected options to play haven't been performing so far this season(Martial), so he can always be forced to squeeze in Lingard.

Still doesn't change the fact that Lingard is simply quite average as a player, doesn't mean I hate him for stating such(so let's stop with all these conspiracies about some of us not supporting local lads).

This is pathetic

 

[SirScholes]

Squad players do start games, too, you know. Can't play the same XI 60 times.

No, that's not all it takes, but it's one good thing he brings to the team, of course it's easier to attack against a tired defence.

We won't play 60 games, just shouldn't be starting as frequently. In an ideal world he'd be third choice winger for a team that we want to be.
But he's better than young depay and rashford on the wing so for this season at least he has a place

 

[top1whoisman]

We won't play 60 games, just shouldn't be starting as frequently. In an ideal world he'd be third choice winger for a team that we want to be.
But he's better than young depay and rashford on the wing so for this season at least he has a place

53 if we go out in EFL semis, FA Cup vs Reading and EL vs Saint-Étienne. If we don't, it’s 57 and counting.

 

[SirScholes]

53 if we go out in EFL semis, FA Cup vs Reading and EL vs Saint-Étienne. If we don't, it’s 57 and counting.

This is the state of the lingard thread man haha we've not even played and I got tagged in it.
Average player doing a job when we are short on real depth in quality, seems to be the opinion we can all agree on

 

[top1whoisman]

This is the state of the lingard thread man haha we've not even played and I got tagged in it.
Average player doing a job when we are short on real depth in quality, seems to be the opinion we can all agree on

HAHA. Well you claimed we won't play 60 games, to which I replied that we're not far off. And no, we can not agree on that. There's loads of us who consider Lingard more than average. A valuable squad player who can fill in when needed and who's been producing more per minute than Martial, Rashford or Mata this season.

 

[SirScholes]

HAHA. Well you claimed we won't play 60 games, to which I replied that we're not far off. And no, we can not agree on that. There's loads of us who consider Lingard more than average. A valuable squad player who can fill in when needed and who's been producing more per minute than Martial, Rashford or Mata this season.

This per minute thing needs to go, he's a sub player, they always tend to have better stats per minute due to the lack of minutes they get.
He isn't "good" at anything apart from running round as you said, and should have better players than that.
Once upon a time Nani was the lingard of are squad, Nani is twice the player lingard is

 

[top1whoisman]

This per minute thing needs to go, he's a sub player, they always tend to have better stats per minute due to the lack of minutes they get.
He isn't "good" at anything apart from running round as you said, and should have better players than that.
Once upon a time Nani was the lingard of are squad, Nani is twice the player lingard is

”This stating facts and stats needs to go as it doesn’t suit my argument.” It’s a much better way to compare players than per match, as some players play full matches and some don’t.

Lingard has come on as a sub 5 times, Martial 6 and Rashford 10 times.

 

[TheSweeper]

It doesnt matter what he does. Alot of our fans ( cant speak of others) wants every player in the team to be technically impeccable. Lingard is class for such a late bloomer. Whether you or I think he is a starting player or not is irrelevant. We see him for 90 mins a week & if the manager thinks he is the best player to play; then he will pick him - what does it matter if MR A or B think he isnt good enough.

People are so damn thirsty for success they would buy 11 griezmanns and put one at GK just to make us technically great again.

No one should have a guaranteed starter place. Not Pogba, Not Zlatan Not rooney Not Lingard. Every game is different & Lingard has done MORE than enough to be considered as a very good option to start or come off the bench.

 

[SirScholes]

It doesnt matter what he does. Alot of our fans ( cant speak of others) wants every player in the team to be technically impeccable. Lingard is class for such a late bloomer. Whether you or I think he is a starting player or not is irrelevant. We see him for 90 mins a week & if the manager thinks he is the best player to play; then he will pick him - what does it matter if MR A or B think he isnt good enough.

People are so damn thirsty for success they would buy 11 griezmanns and put one at GK just to make us technically great again.

No one should have a guaranteed starter place. Not Pogba, Not Zlatan Not rooney Not Lingard. Every game is different & Lingard has done MORE than enough to be considered as a very good option to start or come off the bench.

Absolutely no one would do that, we'd all love a squad of 22 world class players who wouldn't?
At the same time it's not realistic, all some are saying is he is an ok player certainly not "class" certainly not terrible

 

[RikRuud]

Happy to have him in the squad. He's Park Ji Sung-ed himself into a very reliable member and I hope his good work continues.

 

[SirScholes]

”This stating facts and stats needs to go as it doesn’t suit my argument.” It’s a much better way to compare players than per match, as some players play full matches and some don’t.

Lingard has come on as a sub 5 times, Martial 6 and Rashford 10 times.

Fantastic lingard has better stats than a young striker being played out of position, slow hand clap for him?
Rashford isn't ready for 1st team football at least not in a position he can't play in.
And martial is having a poor season I think we can all agree (although recently looking like finding form) this doesn't change a single thing, does it mean lingard is worldie?
I'm never confident watching him player, impact sub yes, starting games? Ideally not next year depending on transfer targets

 

[Scholesy]

No one should have a guaranteed starter place. Not Pogba, Not Zlatan Not rooney Not Lingard. Every game is different & Lingard has done MORE than enough to be considered as a very good option to start or come off the bench.

Zlatan is guaranteed starter.
Rooney was under LVG.
Martial should be.

 

[top1whoisman]

Fantastic lingard has better stats than a young striker being played out of position, slow hand clap for him?
Rashford isn't ready for 1st team football at least not in a position he can't play in.
And martial is having a poor season I think we can all agree (although recently looking like finding form) this doesn't change a single thing, does it mean lingard is worldie?
I'm never confident watching him player, impact sub yes, starting games? Ideally not next year depending on transfer targets

Well he’s statistically also better than Martial and Mata, two of our best wingers/inside forwards of last season. As you said, Martial has had a poor 1st half of a season, that’s why you have squad players who can come in and perform. Who said Lingard is a ”worldie”? You said he’s a sub player thus having better stats per minute than his competitors. That’s simply not true, as stated before.

 

[SirScholes]

Well he’s statistically also better than Martial and Mata, two of our best wingers/inside forwards of last season. As you said, Martial has had a poor 1st half of a season, that’s why you have squad players who can come in and perform. Who said Lingard is a ”worldie”? You said he’s a sub player thus having better stats per minute than his competitors. That’s simply not true, as stated before.

No it doesn't it means his competitors are having a bad year, martial for personal reasons I believe and mata because again he isn't a winger.
That's why this use of stats is pointless, yes a squad player I've said that in about every single post, a bench warmer

 

[top1whoisman]

No it doesn't it means his competitors are having a bad year, martial for personal reasons I believe and mata because again he isn't a winger.
That's why this use of stats is pointless, yes a squad player I've said that in about every single post, a bench warmer

You and I have different views of what a squad player is.

 

[SirScholes]

You and I have different views of what a squad player is.

A player who spends most his time on the bench and chips in against the smaller teams where the better players are rested?