Yes because the next step up from Lingard is obviously world class.
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Maybe you should take up management since you seem to know more about it than Mourinho.
Or think that squad players should never start games. There were many questioning Lingard starting the Sunderland game. I though it was a perfect example of a match where you can rotate a little and give ”squaddies” some playing time. Sunderland at home during a hectic run of matches.
Yeah its pretty sad that people actually waste their energy having a go at our young players, especially one that just landed us an FA Cup.
Think nobody has a problem with him playing versus Sunderland its when in the bigger games he keeps the likes of Martial out the team people get annoyed.
For the sake argument, how many steps do you honestly think there are and how do you define them? For me, there are simply good players and great players. The way the good players perform however can greatly vary depending on formation, structure of the team, league they play in, coherence of the team, form, momentum, ... etc. Great players like your Neymars and Suarez are less reliant on these factors to perform which I think is the main difference. Lingard in that sense is like a number of good players, capable of being quite good but also useless but the same applies to the many other good players elsewhere. What we are missing is one or two more great players, ones that can make a difference on their own. We only have one (maybe two) so far. If a team has 3 or 4 of those with a support of good players, everything usually comes together.
Other PL starters in the top 6. All are better than Lingard. Remember we are supposed to be the biggest club in the world.
Hazard Pedro
Silva Sterling
Walcott Iwobi
Coutinho Mane
Eriksen Son
We have Martial, Mata and Mkhitaryan in that position who are easily at the same level as everyone on that list bar Hazard. If they are not playing, it is not for lack of quality.
1. Lingard isn't a starter so the comparison isn't valid.
2. The fact that those clubs are in the top 6 has to do with how they play as a team, not how good a particular squad player is.
The amazing thing is that you can bet that if we had Iwobi, Son, Mane, Pedro or Eriksen in our team, people would be saying things like "yea but would he get into the x eleven?". There seems to be this belief that every team has world class beaters when you look at our players international profile and general level with other teams and it's easy to conclude that we have as good a squad as any in the league.
Can we thread ban Scholsey?
He adds nothing to this thread with his daft wumming.
He adds nothing to this thread with his daft wumming.
Unfortunately he is too often
And there's nothing wrong with that. We could use a good squad player when the likes of Mkhi and Mata aren't playing.
Sarcasm bro, I fully agree with your assessment, you should have read my comment one page before yours. Or the white text
If Mkhi, Mata, Martial & Rashford are all fit he would not or rather should not even be in the squad and if Memphis ever sorts out whatever problems he has, he would be behind him as well.
Saying Lingard is average isn't some sort of insult or hate on him, at least not for me.
I genuinely believe Lingard is average, literally. No hyperbole here or over exaggeration to make a point.
Look I know we get these once in a blue moon decent performances from Lingard where he's actually contributed end product like the WB but the norm with him is that he just doesn't have actual end product or any threat as one of our attacking players.
Heck just as recently as the Sunderland game he failed to put in a easy and simple pass that would put Pogba 1on1 with the keeper and over hit it. Now it can be argued players making these silly mistakes from time to time could happen(like Zlatan bad pass to Pogba to create a goalscoring opportunity) but with Lingard these sort of poor plays in the final third and that lack of end product are a constant feature with him which is what emphasises his rather average level as an attacking player.
I genuinely believe Lingard is average, literally. No hyperbole here or over exaggeration to make a point.
Look I know we get these once in a blue moon decent performances from Lingard where he's actually contributed end product like the WB but the norm with him is that he just doesn't have actual end product or any threat as one of our attacking players.
Heck just as recently as the Sunderland game he failed to put in a easy and simple pass that would put Pogba 1on1 with the keeper and over hit it. Now it can be argued players making these silly mistakes from time to time could happen(like Zlatan bad pass to Pogba to create a goalscoring opportunity) but with Lingard these sort of poor plays in the final third and that lack of end product are a constant feature with him which is what emphasises his rather average level as an attacking player.
I don't understand this logic. Both LvG and Mourinho, a manager with a record of promoting youth and one without a substantial youth record, both played Lingard. Maybe some of his detractors should take this as a sign that managers rate Jesse as a pretty good player who can contribute - and indeed that resulted in us winning an FA Cup.
Calling him average is one thing, saying he is a nothing player is irrational and Lingard gets that sort of hate often directly or implied. I think he is a good player, not average but certainly doesn't get in our first eleven based on quality. However quality alone shouldn't guarantee a first 11 spot, and rightly so Lingard has been in and out while players of higher quality are injured or out of sorts.
This argument about managers playing X player is ridiculously flawed and simply assumes that all managers decisions are the right ones.
Even the very best don't always get things right. Perfection isn't something that just pour out of managers which is why there is always room for a bit of scrutinuty no matter how good one is as a manager.
It can be argued that this season alone Mourinho made some bad decisions which he ended up realising and fixing them. Managing a team, especially a new squad is always a learning process no matter the experience.
Mourinho has had to change some of his approches this season. He's had to stop starting Fellaini, start playing Carrick, go for 3 in midfield instead of 2 etc. These are examples that shows that every decisions taken by managers aren't always the right ones.
And to be fair to Mourinho in regard to picking Lingard is that our expected options to play haven't been performing so far this season(Martial), so he can always be forced to squeeze in Lingard.
Still doesn't change the fact that Lingard is simply quite average as a player, doesn't mean I hate him for stating such(so let's stop with all these conspiracies about some of us not supporting local lads).
Even the very best don't always get things right. Perfection isn't something that just pour out of managers which is why there is always room for a bit of scrutinuty no matter how good one is as a manager.
It can be argued that this season alone Mourinho made some bad decisions which he ended up realising and fixing them. Managing a team, especially a new squad is always a learning process no matter the experience.
Mourinho has had to change some of his approches this season. He's had to stop starting Fellaini, start playing Carrick, go for 3 in midfield instead of 2 etc. These are examples that shows that every decisions taken by managers aren't always the right ones.
And to be fair to Mourinho in regard to picking Lingard is that our expected options to play haven't been performing so far this season(Martial), so he can always be forced to squeeze in Lingard.
Still doesn't change the fact that Lingard is simply quite average as a player, doesn't mean I hate him for stating such(so let's stop with all these conspiracies about some of us not supporting local lads).
Mkhi was coming back from injury. Martial and Rashford have had much more time on the pitch than Lingard when healthy and haven't exactly covered themselves in glory. It's not as if Mourinho is playing Lingard over somebody that's been banging in goals and, you know, he's not been starting Lingard all the time.
He gave him a start against West Brom in which Lingard played well and created an early goal with a world class one time cross. He rewarded him for his good play by starting him again at home against Sunderland. He also took him off before anybody as he wasn't having the best day and because Mkhi was back in the subs and has the ability to break open a game which we needed at only 1-0.
Personally I feel that this is how a good manager creates competition for spots and shows players that good play is rewarded with more time on the pitch. I prefer this to how LVG operated or for a non-United example, Wenger.
If Martial is out of sorts yet has the same output as Lingard this season, then surely that makes Lingard not good enough.
If a better quality player is out of form, then the squad player replacement must be better than the out of form player output.
Lingard hasn't even been better than an out of form Martial.
If a better quality player is out of form, then the squad player replacement must be better than the out of form player output.
Lingard hasn't even been better than an out of form Martial.
If if and if. More often than not, a team has injuries/suspensions/players not fit/not in form. For those moments hard-working squad players are worth a lot.
The way Lingard plays reminds me of LVG, rarely takes a risk, rarely tries to beat a man and goes missing a lot. Yes very occasionally he shows the ability by scoring the cup winning goal and the cross for Zlatan and a good goal in the Charity Shield. Sometimes he makes good runs, quite often he hides.
But he's no longer a youth player, he's 24. Mourinho has indeed used him, but Mkhi was injured, Memphis has problems, Martial believe had personal problems as well as having having to adapt to Mourinho's way and Rashford's only 19 - Mourinho's getting all this sorted out apart from Memphis and then I don't see Lingard progressing much whereas apart from Mkhi the others are much younger, more talented and more scope.
Other than bit parts, I don't see where he's going. I know he's a local lad and loves United but when I see him or Fellaini on the team sheet my heart sinks a little.
You said above teams successful is based on the squad and not how good a certain player is. Yet you claim Lingard won us the FA Cup.
United won the FA cup and not Lingard. Martial scored winner in semi, Rashford Henry style goal in Quarter. DDG made some important saves too.
Lingard scored a nice goal in a game, that isn't enough to secure a United career. Reference, Macheda.
Ok then, within that same logic. We are building a squad and Lingard is a part of it. If both LvG and Mourinho didn't rate Lingard you can bet the house he wouldn't be here. They clearly like what he brings to the team and are using him accordingly.
He doesn't bring anything to the team.
Why should we agree with what LVG thought? He was almost as bad as Moyes.
Exactly. It's incredible how some people think football works. This "play your 'best' players not matter what" cost us under LvG as he thought competition for places is not a good thing. Lingard's attitude and work ethic keep other, out-of-form attacking players on the bench every now and then. If those players are ambitious, hungry & smart, they'll work even harder in practise etc. More players working harder and listening to the manager's advice = The team benefits.
I also consider having academy products as squad players very good business. With the current fees we'd have to pay at least £30m to get a young winger in. We also need homegrown players for the quotas. Last but not least, having the continuity of former academy players keeps up the reputation of the club. Which in turn helps us signing the most talented youngers from both UK & abroad. Which brings us to the previous points again.
You're actually disagreeing with both LvG and Mourinho. Clearly they wouldn't play him if as you say, they thought he doesn't bring anything to the team. That would be detrimental, so unless you want to advance the argument that Mourinho is deliberately sabotaging us by playing Lingard, you may want to take a step back and reassess.
Sorry for disagreeing with these 2 managers, I never knew everything they do/say is 100% correct...
Yes but if all players are available there are 6 players for 2 positions and that's not including Rooney - and he should be no.6 - if he has a place in the squad it's for the odd appearance, and a few cup games , is that what he wants? We don't need to spend £30m , we already have the players, and Mourinho's seems to be coming to the end of sorting those players out, apart from Memphis. He supplied a fantastic cross from the right for Zlatan, that is the only cross I can ever remember putting in and as you say he's supposed to be a winger.
Half the games he plays I keep trying to find out where he is on the pitch.
Them not being perfect doesn't speak to the fact that they are two accomplished managers with a lot of experience assessing player qualities. If they thought Lingard was "a nothing player" who "doesn't bring anything to the team" then you can safely bet they wouldn't play him at all - sort of like they've done with Memphis.
They think Lingard is good enough for United. That is why they're wrong.
And of course you're right!
They have more credibility than you, so in that regard their view is the correct one.
*Depends on form.
We've got:
LW: Martial, Memphis (Rooney)
RW: Mkhitaryan, Mata, Lingard
Most of us agree that Memphis hasn't done enough to warrant a place in next season's squad. And a lot of us would be happy to see Rooney leave the club. That'd mean we got 4 players for the wing positions. Getting rid of Lingard would definitely mean we had to dip in to the market for another winger.
**I think that applies to opposing defenders, too.
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Einstein had more credibility than everyone but if he said the sky is green then it would still be wrong.
Lingard could score 100 goals in one game and it'd still have been wrong to start him.
Completely irrelevant and off topic.
I just don’t see the need to rate given players before the start of the season and stick to those indefinitely. Form of players vary, injuries occur, players develop, players lose their level, some players need the competition to keep them on their toes and perform their best etc.
Rashford has been playing left wing this season too as well as Rooney - especially now we've now switched to a 433. If Rooney and Memphis left he'd still be back up to the other 4. But despite Rooney not being a lot of people's favourite, he's still offered a lot more than Lingard. We should have two very good players for each position and even then they can interchange, we don't need to have average back-up players any more.
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