Saw him out last night. I suspect he won't be in the squad NYE.
14
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 42
- Goals
- 5
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
Well, Zlatan didnt have a good game overall but managed fantastic output. Something that cant be said about Lingard unfortunately.
Pretty sure one of them hit him on the knee and he had no idea about it, top stuff by Pogba.
Lingard was ok yesterday and had some nice touches, but he simply doesn't have the output that is required for a Manchester United attacker. Zlatan had a worse game than Lingard yet got himself 2 assists and a goal.
Edit: @Escobar just beat me to exactly the same point.
Zlatan played better when Lingard went off, as did everybody else, that's the point.
I don't agree. I think we as a team played better as the game went on and Sunderland tired. Had little to do with Lingard he did Ok there were many players yesterday that didn't play well first half.. Pogba didn't really do much right in that half, second half was a different matter for most..
The first half we were too narrow and too slow, as we always are when Lingard plays, it clogs us up - Pogba did quite well in the first half - Lingard did quite well for the first few minutes.
Lingard made a wonderful cross for Zlatan before Xmas, I'd asked in this thread before, when was the last time he did that, no-one has answered.
If Lingard doesn't have to think he's a better player, trouble is you can't consistently play good football without thinking.
Some of the criticism this lad is getting here is ridiculous.
He was decent yesterday, made few good touches, some good passes (that one for Herrera in dangerous after slick back spin) and had few attempts himself.
His movement is splendid and he's doing exactly what a squad member is supposed to do.
Some of you lot are beyond unrealistic. He's our academy products homegrown player, loves the shirt, club and the badge, has no problem sitting on the bench and he's a decent option to have.
He was decent yesterday, made few good touches, some good passes (that one for Herrera in dangerous after slick back spin) and had few attempts himself.
His movement is splendid and he's doing exactly what a squad member is supposed to do.
Some of you lot are beyond unrealistic. He's our academy products homegrown player, loves the shirt, club and the badge, has no problem sitting on the bench and he's a decent option to have.
Are they ridiculous? He's a footballer judged based on what he does on the pitch. The 'over protective mother' response to people treating him the way they'd treat any other player they feel isn't performing well is something I don't understand.
Just because he's come through the system doesn't mean he's 'played well' if he manages to finish the first 45 minutes without fouling his shorts. I see criticism of every player for the matches they play poorly in. With Lingard it seems he has to have a spectacularly crap game for people not to leap to his defense like he's a sickly child from a Dickens story.
He has games, like the first 45 minutes yesterday where you really don't even notice he's playing he's that peripheral to the game. When you're in the first 11 then that sort of thing rightly draws criticism. He's a Manchester United player not someone who won a raffle. There's plenty of praise for him when he plays well.
Just because he's come through the system doesn't mean he's 'played well' if he manages to finish the first 45 minutes without fouling his shorts. I see criticism of every player for the matches they play poorly in. With Lingard it seems he has to have a spectacularly crap game for people not to leap to his defense like he's a sickly child from a Dickens story.
He has games, like the first 45 minutes yesterday where you really don't even notice he's playing he's that peripheral to the game. When you're in the first 11 then that sort of thing rightly draws criticism. He's a Manchester United player not someone who won a raffle. There's plenty of praise for him when he plays well.
That's all anyone ever says about Lingard; he was "decent"
I think he's anonymous half the time, and the other half he never does anything exceptional. Personally I want to see more from a United winger.
Yes. We were a bit flat in the first half, but Lingard did as well as any other attacking player in that half, so why is he suddenly the reason for it? I'd say Mata contributed less yesterday, getting muscled out of the game by Van Aanholt and Ndong.
What? He practically specialises in exceptional winners! Criticise him for not scoring and assisting regularly enough if you have to - that would be a fair point - but the above comment just makes it sound like you're talking nonsense.He isn't the reason why we played badly. But it's a bit tiresome when criticism of every other player is allowed but because it's Jesse Lingard anything more critical than "he was decent" (see @AndyJ1985 comment above) is painted as some bizarre, anti-youth system, bullying. I'd happily say Mata had a poor game yesterday, but if I did I wouldn't get people telling me I was wrong and that he was "decent".
Here his average rating per-match is a mere 0.5 points below Zlatan. If that happens on a board where people indulge in ridiculous criticism of Lingard then I'm clearly missing something.
He's a squad player not a nailed in starter.
How about them goals he scored in FA cup as well as that goal against Leicester in super cup?
I agree he is a squad player. A decent squad player at that, capable of scoring some incredible goals. But the Tomcleverleyitis (insisting he 'played well' despite poor performances) doesn't help.
That's the thing, he really wasn't bad yesterday. I have no problem stating when he is but yesterday he was really decent.
Only notable thing he handled poorly was 2 passes he made in good areas.
1 for Zlatan in that counter that them 2 led and 2nd one to Pogba in that dangerous attack we had from a very sweet buildup early in the game.
But it looks the other way round to me. No-one defending him here is saying anything about him being a youth product - you're the one doing that. And as you point out, you could day that Mata had a poor game yesterday - or indifferent might be a fairer word - but you didn't, you criticised Lingard instead even though he was probably better than Mata. You see people overzealously defending Lingard, but to my eyes it looks like he gets criticism after any game when he isn't actively excellent, which isn't something most of our players (and Mata is a good example) are subjected to.
It's as if he's somehow on probation. When Mata has an average game, no-one really writes anything about him. In Miki's thread, you'll see people saying things like "harsh on Mata, but Miki should start instead of him, he's too good not to be in the starting XI." But when Lingard has an average game, his thread will immediately be full of "he's not good enough for this team, he's a squad player at best, it's a travesty that Miki isn't starting ahead of him." The facts are the same - Miki clearly deserves to be starting ahead of either Mata or Lingard at the moment, because he's exceptional. But the tone is different for some reason, comparative with Mata but condemnatory with Jesse.
I agree, Lingard wasn't nothing special yday but we would always up our game and score in the second half
Spot on. He is a very useful squad player. He will be Jose's Ji Sung Park.
IMO lingard is better suited to UCL away games or EL away games where we need to defend for a large portion of a match and counter attack with pace whenever the opportunity arrives. In those games his off the ball movement, relentless chasing and defending from the front has a better impact on the game.
However in the home games where we are more likely to dominate like the one against Sunderland, he does not have the ability or consistency to get that final ball right or score a goal. Mostly he does not get into good positions in the box and even if he gets there he does not have the composure to finish. I have seen him scuffing shots or shooting wayward in the box more than any other united attacking player.
There is no doubt he is a good squad player or a sub to have in the team but he is just not reliable to have a saying in games we are supposed to win.
However in the home games where we are more likely to dominate like the one against Sunderland, he does not have the ability or consistency to get that final ball right or score a goal. Mostly he does not get into good positions in the box and even if he gets there he does not have the composure to finish. I have seen him scuffing shots or shooting wayward in the box more than any other united attacking player.
There is no doubt he is a good squad player or a sub to have in the team but he is just not reliable to have a saying in games we are supposed to win.
Agree with the people saying that the bar is held too low for him. The fact that he is a local lad from the Academy does not excuse him from being a very average player.
At 24, he isn't even young. He's a bang average player who buzzes around the pitch, but has no end product. The difference Mkhi made to our team when Lingard came off just shows how much Lingard holds us back.
He has high energy and good movement, but that is nowhere near good enough for a Manchester United winger. He has poor ball control, can't beat a man, and fails to make key passes. A nothing player. He has no business starting a Premier League game for us. At best, he should play only League Cup games when our starters need a rest.
Don't want to see him on another team sheet as a starter until next season when he is sold to relegation fodder.
At 24, he isn't even young. He's a bang average player who buzzes around the pitch, but has no end product. The difference Mkhi made to our team when Lingard came off just shows how much Lingard holds us back.
He has high energy and good movement, but that is nowhere near good enough for a Manchester United winger. He has poor ball control, can't beat a man, and fails to make key passes. A nothing player. He has no business starting a Premier League game for us. At best, he should play only League Cup games when our starters need a rest.
Don't want to see him on another team sheet as a starter until next season when he is sold to relegation fodder.
Never went in the Mata thread last year then? There's already people willing to sell him after a short dip in form from being our best attacking player early season.
I'll defend Lingard to the hilt (he's an awesome squad player), but if you feel he gets cut less slack than technically better players, it's 'cos they're technically better players, tbf
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Pretty typical case of people making up their own realities when it comes to Lingard I think:
So actually, he has created more chances per 90 minutes than even the much fawned about Mkhitaryan.
I can accept Lingard not being everyones cup of tea, but I don't think for a second anything you've said in that extract is true.
I actually think its sad how much shit people wish to throw at Lingard for basically no reason. Far worse players than him have been given far greater leniency.
This. Its so biased against the facts of how he actually performs that its tragic. All this no end product nonsense. I swear some have memories worse than goldfish. Like that Beckhamesque cross didn't just happen. If people want to criticise a player when he has an objectively bad game or run of form fine but now even a decent game with several key chances during a good run of form and he still gets the same criticism.Pretty typical case of people making up their own realities when it comes to Lingard I think:
So actually, he has created more chances per 90 minutes than even the much fawned about Mkhitaryan.
I can accept Lingard not being everyones cup of tea, but I don't think for a second anything you've said in that extract is true.
I actually think its sad how much shit people wish to throw at Lingard for basically no reason. Far worse players than him have been given far greater leniency.
I think its because people get confused with what Lingard is. They see the burst of acceleration and assume that he's supposed to be a natural winger who will stand up his man, beat him and put in a cross and therefore judge him by that standard, but he's nothing like that.
I think of the 5 players I've compared him to there he's closest to Mata (who also gets an inordinate amount of shit for doing 'nothing' despite all evidence to the contrary), but there's two key differences. Mata is far more clinical - which almost goes without saying really - and Jesse is far more mobile. I think the problems for both of them arise when they play together, because they both like to move into the same space and like to come onto the ball rather than moving away to create space.
In a functioning team, i.e. not last seasons Van Gaal side, with either Mkhitaryan or an in form Martial on the other flank (even though they're both different players) both can be real assets.
I'd also throw it out there that a often repeated line of argument with him is that 'we need better squad players to win the league', but on virtually every comparison matrix Lingard compares favourably to our squad options in the 2012/13 season, such as Young, this season.
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I prefer to form my opinions after watching football with my eyes rather than basing them on stats.Pretty typical case of people making up their own realities when it comes to Lingard I think:
So actually, he has created more chances per 90 minutes than even the much fawned about Mkhitaryan.
I can accept Lingard not being everyones cup of tea, but I don't think for a second anything you've said in that extract is true.
I actually think its sad how much shit people wish to throw at Lingard for basically no reason. Far worse players than him have been given far greater leniency.
Anyone who watched the game yesterday can see the difference between Lingard being on and off the pitch was like night and day.
The way Mkhi drove the team forward with his surging forward runs yesterday can't be shown in stats. Neither can the way our team looked so much more in-sync with crisp passing and fluid movement.
Mkhitaryan not only has individual quality, but also improves the team around him and lifts his teammates. It's no coincidence that we looked so much better when he came on yesterday. Mkhitaryan transforms the team in a way that Jesse cannot and is also far better individually than him too.
Also, if you're so hellbent on using stats, use them to paint a fair picture. It's funny how you leave out goals scored and take ons;key attributes for a winger. Don't just pick and choose them to make Lingard look better. Although I dislike using stats, I will post a more apt comparison below since you have tried to mislead everyone with your picking and choosing.
Hang on.
Lets get your argument straight here.
Are you saying that Lingard is a 'nothing player', or that Lingard is not a better player than Mkhitaryan?
Because you said the former first of all, and now you're acting like you were saying the other.
Still, for someone who prefers to form their opinions by 'watching football' you might want to explain how your reality is so different from whats happening on the pitch? How does a player who 'fails to make key passes' (and I'm actually not a fan of this stat or term, but you bought it up) actually the player who makes the most and creates the most chances per 90 minutes of all our wide options?
Also if you're going to criticise someone for picking and choosing their stats its noticeable that you've done the same, but whatever.
Regardless though, this isn't a Mkhitaryan vs Lingard debate. That would be daft, but what this is a debate about whether Lingard is a 'nothing player' or has a role around the United squad. That is, lets not forget, what you said.
By the virtue of the very stats you yourself have posted to prove that I have 'mislead everyone' I think you'll see yourself that the answer is very obvious that he does indeed have a role. By your own cherry picked stats Lingard has been our third best attacking option in the wide areas and therefore, by everyones definition, a squad player that is producing.
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I remember talking to mates in the pub about Cleverley, Richardson and a few others over the years on the exact same terms. Refusal to accept criticism, cherry-picking stats to show that they're actually better than you think, arguments that they'll 'come good' and need time. It almost seems as if people are earning their 'True Fan' badge by sticking up for an academy player rather than being honest about their performances at times.
He shouldn't be starting games, he should be coming off the bench as an impact sub, especially when we're defending a lead and want to kill things off on the counter. An excellent squad player to have.
He can cause problems by dragging defenders all around in the final third and by playing those touch-and-move passes he's so good at. His movement, touch, quick thinking, pace, defensive contributions and ability to come up with the odd goal make him a really good player, I think some of the hate on here is overboard. He would be starting for any mid-table or lower PL club - David Moyes would love to have him, instead of Januzaj.
Just don't let him start games ahead of Martial or Mkhi, please.
He can cause problems by dragging defenders all around in the final third and by playing those touch-and-move passes he's so good at. His movement, touch, quick thinking, pace, defensive contributions and ability to come up with the odd goal make him a really good player, I think some of the hate on here is overboard. He would be starting for any mid-table or lower PL club - David Moyes would love to have him, instead of Januzaj.
Just don't let him start games ahead of Martial or Mkhi, please.
Hold your horses mate.... I dont recall him being anything like Ole
He will have the odd good game but that's about it. Too many overrate him badly and come out once in a while when he gets an assist or goal
Some of the criticism is absurd. Lingard puts in a good shift and is more than capable to be a squad player at Man Utd.
Plus so what if he is 24? He still has years ahead to develop.
Plus so what if he is 24? He still has years ahead to develop.
I actually thought he did quite well yesterday, he was involved and he links up play nicely. Overall he's obviously not going to be a starter for United, but whilst Martial is struggling I see no reason not to keep playing Lingard.
Stats are best used used in conjunction with opinion (expert opinion normally in most fields). None of us are experts. So both extremes sides on here are usually full of it.
However I don't believe for one second Lingard is or ever has been a better player, either in ability or his output than Juan Mata. Those selected stats say he is - not having it (although Mata has the best total score I notice).
I don't think Lingard is always the prime suspect for us playing poorly but I often look at him as one of the candidates for promising attacking moves breaking down and poor decision making in the final third. He's just very hit and miss - I think I might have said before but he reminds me of Luis Garcia at Liverpool. Capable of great goals and moments from time to time but just not a top level player.
However I don't believe for one second Lingard is or ever has been a better player, either in ability or his output than Juan Mata. Those selected stats say he is - not having it (although Mata has the best total score I notice).
I don't think Lingard is always the prime suspect for us playing poorly but I often look at him as one of the candidates for promising attacking moves breaking down and poor decision making in the final third. He's just very hit and miss - I think I might have said before but he reminds me of Luis Garcia at Liverpool. Capable of great goals and moments from time to time but just not a top level player.
He'd be much higher rated if his name was Jesé Lingärd and cost £25 million.
The amount of bias people have against him is insane.
The amount of bias people have against him is insane.
The lad's done well, he has all the attributes to make it here as a squad option or as a starter for a lower Premier League side.
No, he wouldn't be rated at all. He isn't good at anything in particular, physical or technical.
Because he is a local lad and youth player, he is rated higher than he is. If he played for Hull then no one would think he is good enough for United. He is good enough for the Premier League but not United, especially starter.
If he isn't good enough to be a starter, then he isn't good enough to be a squad player.
Please enlighten me. What has Martial done so far this season that Lingard hasn't?
I think we have better players than Lingard who are in our best XI ahead of him, but he demonstrably can be a starter for us as he has started games and done well. That to me makes him a good squad option.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I didn't bring them in to argue that Lingard has been better than those players but to argue that he's been comparable to them (I was actually as surprised as anyone to see him actually out performing players on those metrics).
I just think Lingard brings enough to the team, cost us nothing, and is on a comparative pittance. I'd much rather see, as would anybody I think, an in-form Martial play over him, but we haven't had that this season and I don't see why there seems to be a need to downplay what Lingard has done because Martial isn't playing well.
It doesn't matter, Martial is the better player, by a country mile!
If we had to sell Lingard or Martial, you would prefer we sell Martial?
Of course not. Simply being "the better player" isn't a good enough reason for starting in my opinion. A place in the team is earnt on merit, not on name.
For every Martial, you need a Lingard as well to give you some squad depth and allow for rotation. We saw that in Sir Alex's teams in the past, and why we excelled with players like Fletcher and O'Shea.
Lingard is a good squad player for us and has done well whenever he's played. He's in and around the first team, and rightly so.
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