Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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That's beside the point. The point is that the last 10 weeks have shown that Jeremy Corybyn couldnt organise a child's birthday party, never mind the country. Your diagnosis of the country's problems may well be true, but I'd be terrified at the idea of Corbyn being the man to put it right. Even after this short time, Corbyn's shown himself to be the most incompetent and inappropriate leader of the Labour Party in its history. A politician cocking up the economy or our public services while trying to do good helps no more people than a politician cocking up the economy or our public services in the interest of personal gain.
Positive values have to be matched by the leadership skills, sound judgment and political nous needed to make good ideas a reality. Corbyn's shown himself to be totally lacking in this regard.
When the children at the party, a party he was democratically elected to run by its' membership, are throwing the jelly and ice-cream and throwing tantrums the before he even arrived organisation was never likely to be possible. He hasn't been asked to run the country and given the mess the children in his party have caused he's extremely unlikely to ever be asked as I said in my earlier post.
I've not seen anything that bad in his few public or political acts thus far, only the attempts by the media to smear every action and gesture he has made. He's made a few ill considered appointments to his shadow cabinet and his advisors but given the opprobrium heaped on him by the PLP he's hardly been spoilt for choice and I've yet to see any appointment as catastrophically ill judged as Andy Coulson yet that barely caused Cameron to break stride. Given his past with CND and the fact he is a man of principal, it was always going to be difficult for him to deal with the military at a time when we are mired in numerous ill advised conflicts but frankly I'd far rather have a man of principal at the helm who would hold back from plunging us into these ridiculous inextricable situations than the idiots we have previously entrusted with the position who have gone off half cocked on the basis of a tissue of lies and misinformation. As for the leader of the armed forces speaking out against a democratically elected party leader, where the feck are we living Great Britain or Grenada?
I'm not claiming Corbyn has covered himself in glory, is a powerful orator or looks like becoming a marvelous leader but the mutiny from his own party before he was even elected, the savaging and lies from the media and the threatened military coup from military chiefs if he gains power are all far more worrying to me than anything Jeremy has or hasn't done to date.
Very good on Andrew Marr this morning
What you're basically saying is this - we should judge Corbyn only on the easy bits of the job, not the difficult bits.
Agree with Bury Red 100% on every point
I'll judge those who have made it impossible for him to do his job first. He doesn't inspire any great confidence in me either but the trashing he has and is receiving on a daily basis is sickening. If it makes the Labour party unelectable for the forseeable future then they will have brought it on themselves, although I suspect every one of the Blairite shills will jump ship to the Tories or Libs without batting an eyelid as they're all professional politicians first and foremost.
Long term for Labour it might allow them to return to the party of the working class that it was always supposed to be rather than some slick PR machine looking to appeal to Murdoch's media puppetmasters and hopefully, in time, some politics of conviction will return to the party and allow them to challenge for power again.
Everyone in the UK should vote Corbyn / Labour in next election even if its just to see what happens. With the Tories you know what you will get and no one seems to be happy with that. What is there to lose?
Interesting view
Security, jobs and money spring to mind
The problem is that the majority of people nowadays don't consider themselves to be working class anymore and such a party could never gain power.
Like we've had an abundance of any of those these last 15 years.
- Not leaping headlong into any military conflict on the say so of the hawks would do more to increase security than further losses of our civil liberties will ever achieve.
- Supporting our remaining industry rather than inviting the Chinese over to do it for us and helping to rebuild our manufacturing, infrastructure and research would go a long way to improving the job situation.
- I'm sure we could afford a bit more on health and education if we got those big corporations the Tories love so much to shell out the taxes they have been hiding. If they bugger off, so what, more chance for British businesses and jobs.
Yeah let's do that, what could possibly go wrong? Then when you're speaking to the hundreds of thousands who lost their job when the economy goes tits up, you can always comfort them with the thought that we were just seeing what happens.
I doubt I'd be considered working class despite my roots, doesn't mean I don't understand that our society cannot function if it is not strong from the bottom up and doesn't mean that even in upper management we don't see and understand the pain of bankruptcies, receiverships and redundancies. We've been conned into climbing the class ladder for decades by people from the Bullingdon club who barely consider us the same species as them, let alone consider we will ever join their class and by doing so we have seen the backbone of our country weakened and crippled and put ourselves in the position I was ranting about at the bottom of the previous page where our kids are now the first generation who will fare worse than we will.
Maybe it's too soon for people to remember who they are, where they came from and what once made this country strong, but if we can't steer it back onto the right track now then it will be wrenched back in the future by an even further disenfranchised youth.
It's not impossible, it's just impossible for him because he's the wrong person for the job. Uniting and leading the PLP, handling the media and getting out your message is part of the job. May as well stick him up front for United and blame the opposition defenders for making it impossible for him from the start.
Anyway the emerging picture in oldham west suggests that the idea of Corbyn somehow appealing to the working classes is wishful thinking.
Nice analogy, but it's more like sticking him up front for United and then blaming him when his own players refuse to pass the ball to him and tackle him whenever he gets close to retrieving it for himself.
I've said elsewhere that the media have done a remarkable job in allowing the sort of bile Enoch Powell used to come out with to become commonplace in the papers and on the news, it's not the Liberals or Tories that the working classes will desert Labour for in Oldham and UKIP are a symptom of so much that is truly wrong and evil in British society today.
I've said elsewhere that the media have done a remarkable job in allowing the sort of bile Enoch Powell used to come out with to become commonplace in the papers and on the news, it's not the Liberals or Tories that the working classes will desert Labour for in Oldham and UKIP are a symptom of so much that is truly wrong and evil in British society today.
I'm right with you Bury, I just think the left needs to put it's case forward in a modern way, as the working class stuff is just an immediate turn-off for the majority nowadays. As for the substance of your posts, absolutely brilliant, what's held this country back is a complete absence of long-term planning. The tories have made the very concept dirty and everything they do is short-term only.
Fantastic posts @Bury Red
But they're still deserting him, and they still have not a good word to say about him. The campaign up there has basically had to avoid talking about him at all costs he's so toxic.
But that toxicity is not due to anything he has said now, it's due to the media and even people within his own party misquoting things he has said in the past and choosing to lift snippets such as ""Osama Bin Laden's death was a tragedy" out of their true context about the tragedy of the whole Middle Eastern mess and preferring to seek information and justice by trying the head of a terrorist organisation rather than just seeking revenge in an assassination mission. The great disappointment from Corbyn so far has been that he has meekly stood by and allowed comments like this to be misrepresented where a political firebrand like Tony Benn would have made his point doubly clear while calling out the lies Murdoch and his rags print.
I truly hate what our media has become and what passes for journalism these days and am saddened that the vast majority of our population, my father included, lack the critical judgement to make their own mind up on important issues instead choosing to follow the media's lead.
To be honest I think that's just the usual old disrespectful "I'm right, I wish everyone else wasn't so stupid" line that we've always got from the hard left. If people disagree, it's because they're puppets of the media.
OK, please explain to me why you think Jeremy Corbyn is so toxic? What has he said or done that deserves the degree of criticism that he regularly receives?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html
.I remember hearing some mind numbing shite during the last election, a couple of highlights(Well lowlights)
.One man the reason he didn't vote Labour was because he didn't want Nicola Sturgeon running the country.
.Another said the reason he voted UKIP was to stop all the immigrants coming over from the English channel.
.Tulip Siddiq(Labour MP) said when she went knocking on doors a young black women said to her ''there's too many immigrants in the country so I'm not going to be voting Labour'' when Tuilp said to the women what about you, didn't you come here many years ago and the women replied ''it's different I work hard and I don't claim benefits, it's different''
While I do agree with your point, we really can't forget just how fecking stupid some people are in this country.
Makes perfect sense and I don't see the country in as bad a state as BR does but one thing for sure is that it would be a whole lot worse with a leader from the dark ages inside number 10.
I'm not sure you can accuse someone who's not devoted to the queen and warmongering as being from the dark ages. You can accuse him of being stuck in the 60s, if you want, but not the dark ages.
I hugely question his judgement for one thing, from appointments like John McDonnell and Andrew Fisher to the way he's handled the division over Syria, it's been a strange mix of incompetence and passive aggression towards the rest of the party. For someone that is bidding to be Prime Minister, this is a severe flaw and one not invented by the media. That elements of the PLP are equally aggressive back to him is true, but given many of them will remember back to the 1980s and how close Labour came to ceasing to exist as a party, I can at least understand their motivation. To the people of Oldham West, I imagine the toxicity derives from his statements on security issues and immigration (ironically, he'd more than likely have a better standing there if he stuck to his true anti-EU position).
Indeed, but you can find stupid people supporting just about any argument. I see plenty of mind numbingly dumb supporters of Corbyn as well but I also see, on here for instance, plenty that are switched on and aware of the issues, I just tend to fundamentally disagree on the prescription. Attacking your opponents as being dumb is a quick way to lose the argument (as happened to those who opposed Corbyn during the leadership election, including myself, who thought it was a given that he was unelectable and expected people to just go along with it. What was really needed was an argument against what he was saying, which I hope they're busy developing right now.)
thats happening already
Talk about hyperbole.
Whenever I go back to the uk I feel like I have gone back in time. I think living abroad helps you see the shit things back home.
Does data even influence people's thinking any more?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...h-suggests?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...h-suggests?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics
That's because nothing truly fundamental ever changes in Britain except through 'forced' circumstances or expediency.
For regular readers of the Guardian, their figures will be a surprise; in reality, it seems like every day there's an article along the lines of 'Corbyn is Crap and should be replaced by Adele'.
McDonnell speaks about the threat from UKIP in Oldham:
Is everyone else here perfectly happy with that scenario? Assuming that the chronology of events described is accurate, the conduct of the MP verges on the discriminatory itself.
Any aspect to British way of life in particular?
Is everyone else here perfectly happy with that scenario? Assuming that the chronology of events described is accurate, the conduct of the MP verges on the discriminatory itself.
Any aspect to British way of life in particular?
The national anthem aside, which would've been a storm in a teacup under normal conditions, why should the other instances have been above criticism?
The Torries have full power. If the lives of ordinary people improves, they will keep them in power. If it does not Corbyn provides an alternative that offers very different solutions.
Its not one thing in particular and its just a feeling, I will make a list when i have time. Public transport is a good place to start tho
It sounds like one of those greys tbh were she can getaway with it because she is Asian whereas a white MP would've been pilloried for it.
The 'Torries' have a very tiny majority that will doubtless have evaporated by the next parliament. Nothing certain about the next election and plenty in between now and then, eg the EU referendum and Cameron stepping down.