Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Silva said:
there is a lot of racism, sexism, transphobia, sexual abuse and so on in the labour party and they're all treated the same, if you're a no-name member or low level councillor there's a good chance you'll get shitcanned, if you've got a friend high up in the party you're fine. the major cause of this in the labour party is the professionalised corruption that's endemic in politics, if your parents are connected to or members of the upper ranks you get a job and you're protected in that job until there's a public expose

the only way you'll get around this is if you're voting for independents who aren't career politicians


Theresa May oversaw the home office while it was kicking British Citizens out the country on her orders and running explicitly racist campaigns in the streets of London and the public outcry lasted what, a fortnight?
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Agreed....But there aren't too many of them around, unfortunately.


But one of the biggest reasons of Corbyn making Labour almost unelectable when they should be pissing on the Tories is his entourage. People will not risk having a Government which reads as -

Prime Minister - Jeremy Corbyn
Chancellor - John McDonnell
Home Secretary - Diane Abbott
Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry

Corbyn chose and continues to support these three, who in Joe Public's eyes are even more incompetent than him.
 
Full bodied red said:
Agreed....But there aren't too many of them around, unfortunately.


But one of the biggest reasons of Corbyn making Labour almost unelectable when they should be pissing on the Tories is his entourage. People will not risk having a Government which reads as -

Prime Minister - Jeremy Corbyn
Chancellor - John McDonnell
Home Secretary - Diane Abbott
Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry

Corbyn chose and continues to support these three, who in Joe Public's eyes are even more incompetent than him.
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those are the people that best represent the corbyn wing of the party, if he's going to make Hilary Benn chancellor, there's no point in Corbyn at all. if someone who would make hilary benn chancellor was in charge of the party, i'm not interested in voting for them
 
Silva said:
those are the people that best represent the corbyn wing of the party, if he's going to make Hilary Benn chancellor, there's no point in Corbyn at all. if someone who would make hilary benn chancellor was in charge of the party, i'm not interested in voting for them
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Yes....Quite understandable, but as politicians and potential Government ministers they're only appealing to the Corbynistas, not the 10 million or so voters that need to be convinced that Labour could be / would be better than the Tories at running the country.
 
as to competence in politics: Which part of the Europe referendum, attempted coups, brexit negotiations, Chuka and pals party and current tory leadership campaign makes anyone think it gets any better
 
Silva said:
you're in for a real shock if you think people will care more about johnsons racism than they cared about grenfell or windrush
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I don't think it's a comparative thing, I think Johnson has a ton of judgement flaws that office will expose, character flaws that his many enemies will seek to highlight, and his racism is part of that. Not dissimilar to Corbyn really where his blindness to anti semitism is only part of why he's disastrous.
 
Silva said:
those are the people that best represent the corbyn wing of the party, if he's going to make Hilary Benn chancellor, there's no point in Corbyn at all. if someone who would make hilary benn chancellor was in charge of the party, i'm not interested in voting for them
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And that refusal to compromise is why Corbyns Labour won't ever be elected. Voters don't care about purity tests.
 
Full bodied red said:
....with impossible-to-achieve-without-ruining-the-economy spending promises.
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That would be the same economy that has been so shit it apparently required public service cuts that killed 130,000 people in recent years right? Why is it always Corbyn who is apparently the economic danger rather than the cnuts in office who are actually trashing the feck out of the country already?
 
Kentonio said:
That would be the same economy that has been so shit it apparently required public service cuts that killed 130,000 people in recent years right? Why is it always Corbyn who is apparently the economic danger rather than the cnuts in office who are actually trashing the feck out of the country already?
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What ???

Evidence / Link, please.
 
Red Dreams said:
Being against the Isreali state currently, which is valid obviously does not equate to anti-semitism.
Surely Jews can understand that.
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When you say 'against the Israeli state' what do you actually mean? Do you mean against its actions, or its right to exist?
 
Silva said:
as to competence in politics: Which part of the Europe referendum, attempted coups, brexit negotiations, Chuka and pals party and current tory leadership campaign makes anyone think it gets any better
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You've just given some of the many reasons why Labour should be miles ahead in the polls right now. Not Corbyn's fault they're not of course, oh no.
 
JohnnyKills said:
That still wasn't enough though was it. And Corbyn was still in his honeymoon period then, before the anti-semitism and Brexit stuff really started to hit home.
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To be fair it wasn’t really a honeymoon period. He was low in the polls, getting hit from all sides by the media and his own party, and was seen as a joke basically. That election performance at that time was very impressive, although you could argue that at least some of the reasons for him being in that position to start with were his own fault.

Brexit has fecked him now though. No chance he repeats that performance with a large part of his own party demoralized and pissed off at him.
 
nickm said:
The argument is the opposite. If this was any other ethnic group Labour would have listened better / treated it more decisively. Labour haven't appeared to treat anti-Semitism equally to other forms of racism and that's what is so damaging.
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No other form of racism would have had the microscope on it like anti-semitism has so I don’t know how you can even begin to compare. You’ve got the likes of Margaret Hodge clogging up the complaints process by submitting hundreds of spurious complaints about people who aren’t even Labour members.

I cannot think of another form of racism that has so many people literally looking for it with a fine tooth comb in a single political party... and I mean even a mild hint of something they could twist as being anti-semitic. Among half a million members you will absolutely find anti-semites unfortunately, along with many others expressing anti-Israel sentiments with particularly clumsy language because they just aren’t very bright.

I’ve actually heard far more anti-semitic comment in the FIFA gaming community than I have seen on the likes of Twitter. People talking about “Jew goals” and the like. I’ve never heard anyone prominent condemn this. Ever. Kids literally using the word “Jew” for something they feel was underhanded.
 
Kentonio said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-deaths-uk-ippr-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Fair enough.

Although I notice that IPPR is run by the Hollicks, hardly neutral even though their funding does come from a wide spectrum of people and organisations.


The same could be said of this organisation -

https://fullfact.org/health/130000-preventable-deaths-austerity/

The IPPR doesn’t directly attribute the 130,000 deaths that could have been averted to austerity, but it does say that “prevention services and public health has been severely impacted by a decade of austerity”. It also identifies spending reductions in some more specific areas, for example early years, as negatively affecting public health.

Spending reductions aren’t the only factor that the IPPR picks out though. It also argues that better policy-making could help, and makes a number of recommendations.

So I suppose it depends on which of the two you feel tells more truth / less propaganda


I don't look at the Guardian's site and, surprisingly, haven't seen IPPR's Report mentioned anywhere else

If you can point me / help me to find the actual Report I'd appreciate it as I'm still struggling to understand how an additional 14,000 people have died each year since 2010 as a result of austerity / spending cuts - the UN would qualify that as genocide, not politics, and I'm sure we'd have heard / read about it more than we have done if a good percentage of those deaths are attributable to the Tories / Lib Dem coalition before the Tories were left to run the country on their own.
 
Corbyn - More funding for the NHS

Centrist voter(Who is in no way a TORY, repeat not a TORY) - Shut up you stupid commie, stop promising unicorns that will turn us into Venezuela with Chinese characteristics.
 
Sweet Square said:
Corbyn - More funding for the NHS

Centrist voter(Who is in no way a TORY, repeat not a TORY) - Shut up you stupid commie, stop promising unicorns that will turn us into Venezuela with Chinese characteristics.
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No....

Last time the open minded, what's-in-it-for-me Centrist voter who is in no way a Tory, repeat not a Tory, said to themselves ' Corbyn's policies sound pretty good to me....I'll vote Labour '.

I'm not sure they will next time
 
ZupZup said:
No other form of racism would have had the microscope on it like anti-semitism has so I don’t know how you can even begin to compare. You’ve got the likes of Margaret Hodge clogging up the complaints process by submitting hundreds of spurious complaints about people who aren’t even Labour members.

I cannot think of another form of racism that has so many people literally looking for it with a fine tooth comb in a single political party... and I mean even a mild hint of something they could twist as being anti-semitic. Among half a million members you will absolutely find anti-semites unfortunately, along with many others expressing anti-Israel sentiments with particularly clumsy language because they just aren’t very bright.

I’ve actually heard far more anti-semitic comment in the FIFA gaming community than I have seen on the likes of Twitter. People talking about “Jew goals” and the like. I’ve never heard anyone prominent condemn this. Ever. Kids literally using the word “Jew” for something they feel was underhanded.
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So... Do you call out and indeed report the people you hear using by your own definition antisemitic language in your FIFA community

I must say the tone of your post suggests you don't

I wonder if it was being called a n1gger goal or a pak1 goal etc if that would be more less or equally offencive to you and you would treat it differently...
 
Full bodied red said:
No....

Last time the open minded, what's-in-it-for-me Centrist voter who is in no way a Tory, repeat not a Tory, said to themselves ' Corbyn's policies sound pretty good to me....I'll vote Labour '.

I'm not sure they will next time
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Possibly but that will have more to do with labour stance on Brexit and not the economic ideas of the party.

The people who think labour are going to crash the economy because of basic social democratic reforms, didn't vote Labour last election and will never vote Labour while the left is in control of the party. Because well......these people are tories.
 
sun_tzu said:
So... Do you call out and indeed report the people you hear using by your own definition antisemitic language in your FIFA community

I must say the tone of your post suggests you don't

I wonder if it was being called a n1gger goal or a pak1 goal etc if that would be more less or equally offencive to you and you would treat it differently...
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I haven’t played FIFA online in years. No, I haven’t reported it in the past.

If I heard someone use racist language whilst gaming online I really don’t know whether I would report it or not now to be honest. I’m fairly resigned to online being a bit of a cesspit for behaviour in general which is pretty damning I guess.

Have you ever heard of anyone being punished for using that sort of language gaming? I’ve reported stuff on Facebook and Twitter before and literally no response and posts have stayed up.
 
Sweet Square said:
Possibly but that will have more to do with labour stance on Brexit and not the economic ideas of the party.

The people who think labour are going to crash the economy because of basic social democratic reforms, didn't vote Labour last election and will never vote Labour while the left is in control of the party. Because well......these people are tories.
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Do you think a Corbyn-led Labour government would be just a standard social democratic regime that no reasonable moderates should worry about (seems to be the implication of your posts above)? Or is Corbyn Britain's only chance for real, radical workers-led change/revolution?
 
Sweet Square said:
Corbyn - More funding for the NHS

Centrist voter(Who is in no way a TORY, repeat not a TORY) - Shut up you stupid commie, stop promising unicorns that will turn us into Venezuela with Chinese characteristics.
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You've turned Tory into a pejorative word and are using it to insult anyone who disagrees with you. Why do you think people will take you seriously?
 
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Kentonio said:
To be fair it wasn’t really a honeymoon period. He was low in the polls, getting hit from all sides by the media and his own party, and was seen as a joke basically. That election performance at that time was very impressive, although you could argue that at least some of the reasons for him being in that position to start with were his own fault.

Brexit has fecked him now though. No chance he repeats that performance with a large part of his own party demoralized and pissed off at him.
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It was impressive, although you could argue it was based on quack economic promises (Labour would say all the promises in their manifesto were properly costed, but the objectivity of the people doing the costing was questionable).

Corbyn can definitely win if he comes out and unequivocally backs a second referendum. If he sticks with the wishy-washy policy he's got now, I can see him actually losing votes to the Lib Dems and the Brexit Party.
 
berbatrick said:
It can be both - the latter cannot happen without the former, for example.
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Social democracy is the sort of regime you see in Sweden and France (Hollande era). Firmly capitalist with highish levels of taxation and a well-funded welfare state.

Don't see how you can compare that with revolutionary socialism.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Social democracy is the sort of regime you see in Sweden and France (Hollande era). Firmly capitalist with highish levels of taxation and a well-funded welfare state.

Don't see how you can compare that with revolutionary socialism.
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you are splitting hairs.

Corbyn is not for Communism. He is for regaining the Welfare State. Britain was never communist.
 
Sweet Square said:
Possibly but that will have more to do with labour stance on Brexit and not the economic ideas of the party.

The people who think labour are going to crash the economy because of basic social democratic reforms, didn't vote Labour last election and will never vote Labour while the left is in control of the party. Because well......these people are tories.
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Not necessarily Tories....I think ( no proof, of course, just I think ) the majority are the what's-in-it-for-me brigade.

Like the millions of non-Tories who voted for Thatcher because every couple of months for years, they made a quick couple of hundred quid buying and immediately selling shares in the privatisations which she instigated and which have done so much to leave the UK's economy and infrastructure in the hands of foreign governments and Hedge Funds or bought their council houses for next-to-nothing and for which she should be dug up and then publically executed on the Town Hall steps before being put back where she came from.

I think Corbyn will have to come up with even more expensive, vote winning promises to get these people to vote for Labour again - the pro-Brexit lot would vote for Johnson or Farage ( if the GE was to be before the UK is out of the EU, which is quite possible the way it's going ) because of the antics of Starmer, Cooper, Benn, etc, and those for who anti-Brexit is more important than who's in charge after the GE will vote LibDem because of the obfuscation and antics of Corbyn.

The fear of McDonnell, the clumsiness of Abbott and the hypocrisy of Thornberry probably wouldn't even be a factor.
 
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JohnnyKills said:
Social democracy is the sort of regime you see in Sweden and France (Hollande era). Firmly capitalist with highish levels of taxation and a well-funded welfare state.

Don't see how you can compare that with revolutionary socialism.
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I'd vote for that, and quite a few tories like me would I think. I didn't used to be a tory but I am now, apparently, even though I haven't and won't vote for them.

I'd like to see well-funded green policies added to the well-funded welfare state, which would make a successful economy able to sustain such taxes even more important of course.
 
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JohnnyKills said:
You've turned Tory into a pejorative word and are using it to insult anyone who disagrees with you. Why do you think people will take you seriously?
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I think the post you've quoted is making the point that there's a constituency of people out there who see themselves (and want to be seen) as centre-left progressives who would never vote Tory, but who in reality have a lot more sympathy for centre-right/right wing economic policy than they do anything vaguely left of centre. In order to stave off cognitive dissonance they therefore end up convincing themselves that PFI and austerity were common sense centrist ideas and that raising taxes slightly for people earning over 80k or nationalising a few bits of basic infrastructure is quasi-Communist.
 
2cents said:
OK so maybe it's the latter which has the moderates worried, not the former.
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Sure, but the risk of a better world is associated with most iterations of social democracy, including Olof Palme.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/social-democracy-sweden-meidner-plan-socialism

edit -to clarify, with people like mcdonnell and corby, it is more likely they will take this turn. but their main manifesto promises were related to college and the nhs, which is surely what they would focus on.
 
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berbatrick said:
Sure, but the risk of a better world is associated with most iterations of social democracy, including Olof Palme.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/social-democracy-sweden-meidner-plan-socialism

edit -to clarify, with people like mcdonnell and corby, it is more likely they will take this turn. but their main manifesto promises were related to college and the nhs, which is surely what they would focus on.
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My point was just that it seems like mocking people for worrying about Corbyn on the basis of his plans for "basic social democratic reforms" is a bit of a straw man. Perhaps there are moderate leftists out there who are running scared at the thought of more money for the NHS or nationalization of the trains, but it's far more likely they're concerned about Corbyn's history, how he's surrounded himself with people like Murray and Milne, and how some of his most prominent supporters in the media keep going on about how great communism will be. These moderates/centrists or whatever you want to call them probably don't associate far-left politics with the "risk of a better world", but rather with economic dysfunction and political repression. Maybe they're wrong, but I don't think they're unreasonable.
 
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