I find your posting style on this matter very uncomfortable.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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I find your posting style on this matter very uncomfortable.
The vast majority of those who oppose Israel are antisemitic? Ffs
The two definitely can get muddled, but given that the conflict essentially turns on Israel being an ethnostate (Ashkenazi Jews with essentially no middle-eastern heritage have right of return, but Palestinians displaced in living memory do not [and in fact IHRA defines supporting their right of return as anti-Semitic - because that would dilute Israel’s status as a *Jewish* state]) criticism of such a state is very easily portrayed as antisemitic.
For instance it’s just a fact that Israel has far more influence, far greater financial means, far more of a lobby, than Palestine. Palestine doesn’t even have embassies. Pointing this out isn’t antisemitic, even though it might be portrayed as similar to tropes about “Jewish control”
Good. I've stopped fearing being called antisemitic so now I can call out Israel and its supporters for their racism
And this is where you lose all credibility.
It is the most classic deflective tactic for Israel to hide behind anti-Semitism – As other groups hide behind sexism, racism, Islamophobia etc. when there are legitimate criticisms made. It would be an understatement to say there are legitimate criticisms of Israel. Their occupation of the West bank, their construction of the “safety barrier” have all been declared violations of international law by the ICJ and 144 states adopted a resolution calling for Israel to cease their gross exploitation of the Palestinians. I suppose the “vast majority” of these states were anti-Semitic?
On top of the alleged war crimes, the stolen property, the murdered children – Israel has become such a toxic issue in Western politics, particularly in the US where any semblance of criticism is rare and where GOP races devolve into a pro-Israeli dick measuring contest with no regard whatsoever for their breaches of international law or the suffering of the Palestinians. This is where the criticism of Israel stems from, the fact that anti-Semites inevitably jump on board shouldn’t undermine it’s legitimacy.
As for Corbyn – the media have been trying to slander him every which way possible so while the anti-Semitism isn’t exactly made up, it’s certainly going to be overblown. As are his IRA links, his communist links, his Czech secret police links etc. Almost like there’s quite an incentive for huge media conglomerates to undermine a socialist.
Claims like that need sources, Colin.
And it is a classic deflective tactic for anti-semites to hide behind criticism of Israel.
Or to be more generous, there appear to be plenty of people whose legitimate criticisms of Israel spillover, or become anti semitic - whether accidentally (because they genuinely believe they are anti-racist and have a blind spot), or by design. Or who want to hold "Jews" accountable for the actions of Israel, which is anti-semitic.
Or maybe his predictably flaccid response to SO MANY ONGOING reports of antisemitism in the labour membership/party/whatever, to the extent that people have quit his party, make Labour look institutionally anti-semitic. Which therefore makes the Labour leader at best weak on anti-semitism, or at worst, some sort of anti-semite himself.
Other way around. Zionists want to make Israel a Jewish matter so making all criticism of the former antisemitism.
Some might. But what about Jews who don't and yet still see Labour as anti semitic?
They are lying to themselves, they don't want to belive that fellow Jews would weaponise antisemitism in such a gross manner, so they go along with the mob
Mozza with his finger on the pulse of the Jewish community.Poll - More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic
"The poll, conducted using Survation’s panel of the GB Jewish population found that 86% of British Jews polled believe that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic compared to 8% who said he is not and 6% who did not know. The same proportion of respondents believed that there were high levels of anti-Semitism among the Labour Party’s members and elected representatives (4 and 5 on a 1-5 scale where 1 meant low-levels and 5 high-levels)."
(for comparison this recent poll found that 48% of African-Americans considered Donald Trump to be racist, and 83% said he makes them feel "disrespected")
Labour’s Deputy Leader Had Dinner With A Key Strategist Behind A New Centrist Party
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickha...tm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfsharetwitter
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickha...tm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfsharetwitter
So there is no problems with anti semitism in labour... It's just those sneaky Jews controling the media...
Still waiting for an answer on this.
Poll - More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic
"The poll, conducted using Survation’s panel of the GB Jewish population found that 86% of British Jews polled believe that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic compared to 8% who said he is not and 6% who did not know. The same proportion of respondents believed that there were high levels of anti-Semitism among the Labour Party’s members and elected representatives (4 and 5 on a 1-5 scale where 1 meant low-levels and 5 high-levels)."
(for comparison this recent poll found that 48% of African-Americans considered Donald Trump to be racist, and 83% said he makes them feel "disrespected")
Like I said, they are lying to themselves, better to think Corbyns problem is antisemitism rather then the behaviour of Israel
Not to the extent that requires the level of anguish it is generating
The antisemitism issue is an “operation” launched by a “Zionist cabal” who control the media, and rather than face the reality of the nature of their “fellow Jews” a vast majority of British Jews have instead chosen to “lie to themselves” about all this.
Imagine if this shite was peddled about any other minority on the Cafe?
Imagine if this shite was peddled about any other minority on the Cafe?
And you don't think there's anything at all problematic about dismissing the view of a group who have been historically discriminated against en masse when they are arguing that they are currently being discriminated against? Or that this isn't the exact sort of excuse anti-Semitic groups have always used when accused of anti-semitism?
The views of racist supporters of apartheid Israel can be dismissed
Plenty of groups - whether national, ethnic or otherwise - will often hold views we perhaps find problematic or which sometimes clash with our own values. That doesn't mean we dismiss claims of discrimination against said groups, especially when said group has an extensive history of being discriminated against. Plenty of Israeli voices have condemned Israeli attitudes towards Palestine - I'm willing to be proven wrong but I don't doubt some of them have also called out Labour's anti-semitism as well.
Muslims have a great time on this forum
Condemnation is all well and good but Israelis continue to vote in ever more vicious and racist government. Actions speak louder than words
I think you're making connections that might not be there. Look at the India Pakistan thread for one.
And that's again a separate issue from anti-semitism. It's not as if everyone in Israel supports the current government.
The mojority do. Also you say current government as if there has been in times past an Israeli government that treated Palestinians like they were equals
That thread is a nationalist dick-swinging contest, basically a disaster. Everyone recognizes it and it’s thankfully been closed. I don’t see its relation to this topic.
The Cafe leftists generally don’t hesitate to call out racist posters and racist tropes when they see them. It is understood that when Trump refers to African countries as “shitholes” he’s not being critical of them, he’s being racist. Likewise it is understood that tropes about a rich Jewish individual like Soros controlling media in an attempt to undermine the popular will are antisemitic. Anyone on here who posted in support of Trump’s contention or in defense of a Soros conspiracy would have a sizeable portion of the membership spitting blood.
The relation is that it was very one sided and some of the things said about Pakistanis (and the obvious religious aspects) were quite bad and most people in that thread didnt seem to have a problem with it. So I dont think "imagine if this was peddled about any other minority" really holds water.
Second, I think that in light of the long history of anti-Semitism a lot of people have lost all nuance when discussing it. Things that arent antisemitic (like what Ilhan Omar said) are called anti semitic and the backlash is so severe that everyone piles on. So for people interested in deflecting criticism of their actions, calling their opponents anti semitic is very effective.
I think theres no doubt that israel and a number of mainstream Zionist organizations engage in propaganda and seek to control parts of the media. I also think the US does it and Russia does it and Amazon does it and the NFL does it and so on. But because of the long standing accusation of Jewish controlling the media, any time someone tries to point out that Israel and its allies engage in it, people fall over each other to condemn the (in some cases, true) accusation.
Poll - More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic
"The poll, conducted using Survation’s panel of the GB Jewish population found that 86% of British Jews polled believe that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic compared to 8% who said he is not and 6% who did not know. The same proportion of respondents believed that there were high levels of anti-Semitism among the Labour Party’s members and elected representatives (4 and 5 on a 1-5 scale where 1 meant low-levels and 5 high-levels)."
(for comparison this recent poll found that 48% of African-Americans considered Donald Trump to be racist, and 83% said he makes them feel "disrespected")
I think it is also worth pointing out that when Labour was led by a Jewish man 70% of British Jews voted Conservative. If 86% think that there are high-levels of antisemitism among Labour’s elected reresentives then they are patently incorrect. You can roll out MacPherson principle all you want but it doesn’t make them correct.
I’m not following your logic here.
A conservative Party that helps Victor Orban
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...anks-uk-tory-meps-who-voted-against-sanctions
But yeah something something a labour member said a horrible thing on twitter.
You think Pakistanis are talked down because they are muslims?
@2cents
The Koch brothers have a history of closeness with Nazis - their family fortune was helped by trade with them, their father openly praised late 30s Germany, and the brothers' many think-tanks and publications and university centres have hired or published holocaust deniers multiple times.
Source: http://www.unkochmycampus.org/los-ch3-part-1-nazi-sympathies-of-the-koch-family#part2
The Kochs have opened a centre in Israel, managed by a former aide to Netanyahu.
Corbyn is going to be lose as British Labour leader, universally seen as an anti-semite, while Israel welcomes a family with concrete links to the Nazis. The whole thing stinks.
The Koch brothers have a history of closeness with Nazis - their family fortune was helped by trade with them, their father openly praised late 30s Germany, and the brothers' many think-tanks and publications and university centres have hired or published holocaust deniers multiple times.
Source: http://www.unkochmycampus.org/los-ch3-part-1-nazi-sympathies-of-the-koch-family#part2
The Kochs have opened a centre in Israel, managed by a former aide to Netanyahu.
Corbyn is going to be lose as British Labour leader, universally seen as an anti-semite, while Israel welcomes a family with concrete links to the Nazis. The whole thing stinks.
Honest question for people in here. They've adopted the IHRA policy in full, They've put in a new code of conduct, reviewed cases when MPs or members have potential said something problematic and are actively promoting how to notice types of anti semitism.
What more do you want Labour to do ?
Er, no. I think its down to the fact that there are far more Indians on here than Pakistanis. It's a natural result and not exclusive to those two countries.
I'm not at all sure that Pakistanis get shouted at because they have less people in the forum you absolute dunderhead
I said "It’s a principle accepted for other ethnic groups, that they get to decide what discrimination against their group looks like."
You questioned whether it was true Others here have established that's it is, referencing Macpherson. So how about you accept that point for starters.
You then asked which other minority had an IHRA.
Well it's pretty fecking obvious why Jews have an IHRA, unlike other minority groups.
Quit shouting at me.
Other ethnic minorities don't have their reports of discrimination taken seriously
It was a “debate” primarily between Indian and Pakistani members on here which I guess most of the rest of the Cafe lost interest in fairly quickly. And it got closed, the correct call, and not for the first time.
There is also the tactic, seen repeatedly on the Cafe, of implying that something cannot be antisemitic since it is just criticism of Israel. E.g. referring to Israel as a “disease”.
There is a very good discussion to be had about the influence of lobbies, etc. As long as everything is contextualised and honestly laid out, there is no problem in recognizing that Israel boasts a very strong and successful PR machine in parts of the West.
Every country attempts to manipulate and influence through supporters. For a variety of understandable reasons - historical, cultural, economic, strategic, etc. - some are more successful than others. The Irish lobby in DC was powerful enough that America turned a blind eye to funding for the (Irish) Republican cause throughout the Troubles, despite the “special relationship” with the UK. Consider the number of Irish-Americans associated with the Trump admin, and imagine the response if, say, Trump intervened somehow on behalf of Ireland in the current Brexit quagmire (something that has been mooted in the press) - would we hear about the nefarious control of the Irish lobby and Irish state on US policy in the vital region? The Irish operation to control US media? Would Irish-American supporters of the Irish lobby be accused of dual loyalty (Ilhan Omar’s topic of today)?
Why do you think we hear about these things almost exclusively in relation to Israel (I’ll grant that Russia-hysteria is currently probably worse)? The fact is that Israel and its supporters are regularly, disproportionately subjected to ‘critiques’ which just happen to reflect stonecold antisemitic tropes, and often from a section of the left which is extremely sensitive to analogous discourse aimed at other minorities.
I’ve not mentioned it. 86% don’t necessarily have to be correct, but they do need to be listened to, taken seriously and not dismissed as “lying to themselves” out of some kind of tribal solidarity.
I know nothing about the Koch’s. I think Netanyahu is a disgrace of a person who, just like Corbyn, has no issue with rubbing shoulders with antisemites when it suits his agenda. This applies to much of the Israeli right. And I think this should be pointed out to everyone blind to the problems of Netanyahu for whatever reason, not as a defense of Corbyn but as an indictment (heh, heh) of both of them.
I watched that video this morning and I think it’s great. So more stuff like that please. It’s encouraging to see that some influential people in Momentum and the party are conscious of the problem and considering how to deal with it. In as far as they’re sincere they have my full support: