Exactly. He certainly was good enough to start for us on 2010-2011 when we arguably had a better team than this one. Also, the game against WBA cannot be taken against him that much considering that he didn't had much service except 2-3 crosses from Nani in the entire game, and the world class Van Persie looked worse than him when he came on.
Javier Hernandez | 2013/14 Performances
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Exactly. He certainly was good enough to start for us on 2010-2011 when we arguably had a better team than this one. Also, the game against WBA cannot be taken against him that much considering that he didn't had much service except 2-3 crosses from Nani in the entire game, and the world class Van Persie looked worse than him when he came on.
He's not good enough to start for us since we've already have 2 strikers who are better then him. Its already ridiculous that we're playing with 2 strikers when its evident that we lack the quality in midfield to support that.
He is still a better striker then Bambi on ice though.
He is still a better striker then Bambi on ice though.
Hernández isn't good enough to start for Manchester United and lead the line. Fans talk about him being underused under Moyes so early on in the season, but he's had two consecutive starts as a centre-forward, one of which he played well in and the other he played mediocre. I like how it's the lack of service that was missing vs. West Brom, which isn't true at all. Some strikers don't get the supply he was given. Nani created a couple of chances for him (three crosses) - he should have at least scored. Then, in the second half, he should have either scored one or assisted one. There was a chance two mins into the half, where he had a 2 v 1 advantage vs a defender and he decided to shoot when his body positioning was all wrong (and with Rooney to his right). He should have also connected with Rooney's free kick - at least that would have made his performance worthwhile. IMO, he lacks the associative play Van Persie and Welbeck have. They drop deep often, link-up with small one-twos a times. It's just that there's a lack of fluidity in Hernández's game to make him a starter for us.
Right that's it, I'm going to tweak RVPs hamstring
Manchester United barely had three chances in that game never mind Hernandez. It would have been another piece of great forward play if he had turned any of those crosses into goals.
That's simply not true at all. The crosses Nani puts in were chances for Hernández to score from. He was average. See this:
What the feck have you been smoking? He put in a couple of crosses just too far in front of him. He'd be doing well to score from them. It's good he's been upgraded from mediocre to average though. You could've warned me about how bad that video was by the way.
I don't smoke. The crosses were perfect. He had the right service, it was his timing that was off. I think most people after the game agreed with that. Mediocre was exactly what he was, but I thought I'd be generous and refer to his performance as average. It still doesn't excuse the fact that he had a number of chances to score from. Van Persie would have scored at least once with the crosses put in.
Balls. Stick to your shitty videos.
Another awful post from you, no surprise. You just can't handle facts. Blaming the service is one of the most nonsensical arguments ever in this debate. It had nothing to do with the service as he had more than three chances to score. But you can carry on believing that he wasn't supplied if that makes you feel better.
He was rusty but you paint it as if he had a mare or royally fecked things up. None of those are as clearcut a chance as RvPs against Sunderland. Chicha would have buried that.
I agree RvP is by far the better player but there's something in his partnership with Rooney which doesn't quite work. I think you underestimate the impact a player like Chicharito has in keeping a defence unsettled. As a defender I would be a lot less worried about the ball over the top against RvP and Rooney, that helps focus efforts and make the intricate passing you rave about less effective.
No I don't. Please don't try and turn this into me bashing Hernández because that's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to show that you can't complain about service, when you receive a couple of chances vs. West Brom. Of course none of those are as clear-cut as Van Persie's. I don't see how that's relevant, though. I certainly agree that Rooney and Van Persie is an ordinary partnership. Apart from the 2-3 win at the Etihad last season, I can't think of another performance where they were excellent together. I don't think it's close to the Suárez and Sturridge partnership, where both are very good at linking together, and don't let their egos heavily influence their decisions. I don't think I have underestimated anything at all. Nothing has been said about Hernández's movement, I was merely making a comment on his performance vs. West Brom. And as far as him trying to displace Van Persie or getting more game time, it's going to be very tough to do that. For a start, he needs to drop deep more often and get involved. Last season... Van Persie's average passes per game: 26.9, 8 assists; Hernandez: 12.2, 3 assists. Obviously, Van Persie played more, but you get the point.
You've just called him mediocre for not getting on the end of those crosses. I gues RvP was atrocious then (not that he set the world alight).
The issue is precisely that you are comparing his game and RvPs when saying he needs to drop deep and link up more. It would be useful if he could do it and he has been improving there (the stats you post above are not bad seeing as it's per game and Chicha got significantly less time on the pitch in his average game). Still, the entire point is he offers something different to van Persie. He doesn't have to be like van Persie, if anything, I would love it if van Persie could be a bit more like Chicharito, particularly when Rooney and occasionally Welbeck are doing much of the stuff he brings to the table.
I don't see how Van Persie's performance is relevant. He was mediocre against Sunderland and hasn't really found consistency just yet this season. I called Hernández's performance mediocre. This is what I said:
Correct. Hernández's game is massively inferior to Van Persie in some areas and it's also massively superior in some areas, ironically. To bring him on when we need a goal or two is when he is best utilised IMO. But the reason I'm comparing his game to Van Persie's is because it's the lack of all-round consistency and fluidity that will never make him a first team player when Van Persie retires/leaves, and chances are, Hernández won't stay beyond this season because he's wasted here. To compare him to Van Persie is to compare the styles of a natural poacher to a centre-forward, a nine-and-a-half, if you will. Hernández wouldn't receive much criticism in 2001, 2002, etc., but it's a different game to now.
I'd rather have him in the team as a striker that Welbeck, no questions asked.
Hernandez wouldn't be still at United now, if Wenger guaranteed him a starting place.
Yup, completly agree with MM here. We've had tremendous service against West Brom, I don't think it was that good at any point this season, but what we've lacked, was a proper 'close your eyes and put it in' action from our strikers. Yes, both of them, that means that Rooney didn't do his job properly either. Nani's crosses were put in the zone between the defenders and the goalkeeper, it's basically poachers' best spot to camp. Defenders can easily make a mistake and score an own goal and goalkeepers often feck it up when them come out to collect the ball. So if we're sticking to certain terms now, yes, that match from Hernandez and Rooney ( that goal doesn't change anything ) was very average to say the least. I feel that both Nani and Kagawa were doing good job in terms of creating.
Having said that, I don't consider Chicharito an 'average' striker, I rate him very highly. His attitude is great, eager to improve all the time, you could see how much he's improved his link/outside of the box play compared to his very first season for us, it's on a completly different level. I'm not too bothered that he was average that match as he's obviously lacking some proper playing time lately. Played against what, Liverpool in COC for aprox 70 minutes and then some scraps in the Premier League I hardly can remember bar the aforementioned game. He's definitely lost a bit of his magic touch by not having enough chances and seeing that our strikers are far away from tremendous form, I think that Chicharito should be given chances way more often.
Hernandez was definitely sub-par against West Brom. He usually gobbles up chances like the ones he missed, with ease. He just seemed a tad off the pace, slower to react than he usually is, but match fitness and that mental sharpness comes with playing games, and he's hardly playing at all. I feel a bit sorry for him though. He's a model professional, has a great attitude and determination, 90% of the time when he gets his chances he takes them, and he probably knows he won't be given a run at starting games whilst RvP is here. I understand him wanting to leave, but I don't want him to go.
We would have to sell him for starters. Do you really think he wouldn't start for Arsenal? feck buildup play, they have a midfield that actually contributes going forward, zillions of "upbuilders", so there's feck all need for the striker to do much other than get the ball in the back of the net.All this stuff about big teams having more rounded strikers... smacks of the same crap as defensive wingers, all bollocks we keep telling ourselves is crucial... It is indeed, but only because we set up for it to be crucial. If our midfield actually created anything you wouldn't expect the fecking striker to be doing it. Ideally he has the ability to get involved but first and foremost you want him to score goals.
Christ sake.
All this stuff about big teams having more rounded strikers... smacks of the same crap as defensive wingers, all bollocks we keep telling ourselves is crucial... It is indeed, but only because we set up for it to be crucial. If our midfield actually created anything you wouldn't expect the fecking striker to be doing it. Ideally he has the ability to get involved but first and foremost you want him to score goals.
Christ sake.
Why did Madrid get rid of Higuain rather than Benzema? Why did Bayern get rid of Gomez for Mandzuckic?
Exactly. With Madrid I think it's because Ronaldo's their primary source of goals and a more player up front caters to his role far more than a poacher type would (I.e - passes to Ronaldo rather than expecting to receive service from Ronaldo). I'd argue similarly for Bayern actually, obviously they don't have one Ronaldo figure but their forward line is full of goals if you set up your system to cater to them. The top teams are filled with players who can make a difference and don't rely so much on a striker who could easily go out of form or get marked and be anonymous
It's almost as if Van Persie doesn't get enough goals or something. Mental.
Muller wouldn't be playing up front for Bayern either.
Muller wouldn't be playing up front for Bayern either.
You are genuinely bonkers if you think they were good chances. Good crosses in no doubt but little Hernandez could do with them.
Because it suits them better and their goalscoring record doesn't suffer at all (in fact, Benzema's is better than Higuain's)? How many times did Higuain provide the answer when Benzema was clearly not going to?
So now we should ignore a striker who has the best goals per minute record playing for exactly the same side, all in the name of building up play? What the hell do you build up for if not to score goals? And yet, some here will have us believe it is far better and more refined to appreciate Welbeck, despite his lack of composure, than the wine in tetrapack that a poacher apparently is.
Now on the back of a couple of examples we should just all hail these complete players and get rid of those not making the grade. But then, Barca went for Ibrahimovic, a better player than either of those. How did that go?
It's horses for courses and with the number of teams we play in a season, with such different CB pairings and tactics, you can bet your left nut Hernández is a better bet upfront than any of the others not most times, but many. Rooney-RvP looks as laboured and lacking in edge as Rooney-Berbatov did. Unsurprisingly, Chicha has quite clearly proven the better partner for any of those three. That alone tells us something.
Again, I think many are completely ignoring the impact he can have on rival defences, dragging them around, keeping them in two minds or -if lacking pace or slow on the turn- forcing them deeper and thus giving the creators more room to operate in or shoot from distance. Of course Rooney and RvP do some of that but nowhere near Chicha's standard. They both have a marked tendency to drop deep and work the channels, but more often than not that leaves us faffing around the box but having no presence and posing no danger in it.
Barca got rid of Ibrahimovic to play Messi up top which isn't really an argument against top teams wanting an all-round attacker up top.
Hernández offers us a very useful alternative and is a very valuable squad member. He's also a very good partner for both of our first choice strikers. You can probably count the number of people on one hand that would argue against that. No-one wants us to get rid of Hernández. It's just a case that Rooney and van Persie are better, more influential players and will always be ahead of him in the pecking order unless there's a dramatic drop in form. If he's not content to wait until either of them start to decline then he has every right to move for the good of his career.
Hernández offers us a very useful alternative and is a very valuable squad member. He's also a very good partner for both of our first choice strikers. You can probably count the number of people on one hand that would argue against that. No-one wants us to get rid of Hernández. It's just a case that Rooney and van Persie are better, more influential players and will always be ahead of him in the pecking order unless there's a dramatic drop in form. If he's not content to wait until either of them start to decline then he has every right to move for the good of his career.
To be fair to Hernandez it must be frustrating to have a striker ahead of him in the pecking order that scored 2 goals in 40 games last season... Don't want him to leave, he's the best finisher we have...
Hernandez isn't in competition with Welbeck right now.
hence last season.
True, I think the problem is that he's usually stuck behind Welbeck in the pecking order too though, despite generally impressing more whenever he plays and, more importantly, scoring goals on a consistent basis.
I think he's a better player than Welbeck yet for some reason gets far less game time than him, that's my biggest gripe with the whole thing.
All this stuff about big teams having more rounded strikers... smacks of the same crap as defensive wingers, all bollocks we keep telling ourselves is crucial... It is indeed, but only because we set up for it to be crucial. If our midfield actually created anything you wouldn't expect the fecking striker to be doing it. Ideally he has the ability to get involved but first and foremost you want him to score goals.
Christ sake.
We'd sell him in a flash if Wenger wanted him as much as he wanted Higuain or Suarez.
OK, here we go again: some rivals and their defences, home or away matches, call for different approaches. In most cases RvP is the answer, in many he is not (or doesn't displace Chicharito but partner him).
TBF, Muller actually does a lot of stuff you want from Chicha: best known for his off the ball movement, and he happens to be a pretty damn good poacher, in important games to boot.
Yeah, because Messi doesn't also have everything Chicharito has in his locker (bar being quite handy aerially).
Agreed, to an extent. I still think there are games he should defo start ahead of either. Am I the only one worried that we often find ourselves lacking an out and out striker in his absence? Take those Nani passes he "should have scored from", he was rusty but otherwise would have bagged 1-2 goals, neither would be the sort of goal we usually see from either of the other two. Rooney used to score some of those playing centreforward, but I don't think that route would have been open to Nani without Chicharito on the pitch, they would both likely be more withdrawn and not trying to beat the offside trap.
Look at Januzaj's first last weekend, we are rarely seeing someone arriving in the box through the middle like a Scholes or Fletcher used to. Carrick stays deep, Cleverley tends to stand off and take wild shots from distance. From the moment we don't present that much threat through the middle (hopefully Fellaini helps once settled), the rival CMs tend to drop deep, the defenders push up and Rooney/van Persie and all their build up gets squeezed between them. Chicharito can help create more room there by forcing defenders deeper (or taking advantage if they don't). But no, what we do in the absence of space is play it to the flank, preferably the right one, and then get a cross into an overcrowded penalty box where, again, Chicharito would be handy.
Welbeck gets more games due to also playing in a "hardworking defensive winger who can contribute to build up" role. I don't think he would be behind Chicha as a striker although some here seem to believe that is the case.
Nah, not really. You're in the minority. Now you're saying they're good crosses... I'm done.
Cina, this isn't true at all and I explained it a couple of weeks ago. Welbeck's versatility means that he is only ahead of Hernández in the winger role. There is no evidence at all to suggest that Welbeck is ahead of Hernández as a striker - they are completely different things. The only season Welbeck was ahead of him was in 11/12. Last season, Welbeck played two games as a striker - the rest of the time, he was on the wings. And I have to disagree with you on who the better player is... Welbeck is clearly superior IMO, but Hernández is the better finisher by far (and possesses better movement).
I never said they weren't good crosses. How am I in the minority? Read a match report and they probably wouldn't even be mentioned. Was this thread bumped after the game saying how many chances he missed?
One of the Sunday chip wraps saying that he's seeking a move away to get more playing time, and Spurs are sniffing around. Sounds like a re-hash of a story that was doing the rounds during the last window.
If true, then I can't blame him. He's good enough to be playing every week for most teams. Having RVP and Rooney makes it difficult. Even if RVP and Rooney are in poor form, they are almost undroppable due to their stature.
I'd hate to see him leave though. I'd hate even more to see him playing elsewhere in the Premier League. Love the guy.
I'd hate to see him leave though. I'd hate even more to see him playing elsewhere in the Premier League. Love the guy.
Almost costed us the world cup qualification last friday with a penalty miss. I still love him and back him, and don't believe he'll leave as he'll get more playing time as the season advances and we have to rotate and use a player like him. You should see the abuse he's getting here, though, especially for the penalty miss, some almost hate him here right now, no joke.
Has Hernandez always been a scapegoat of the national team, due to how "limited" he is often perceived?
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