Javier Hernandez | 2012/13 Performances

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Amazed at that, you really think Hernandez is better outside the box than Defoe?

Just take a look at some of the goals Defoe has scored this season, he can pick a ball up 30 yards from goal, beat players and finish. Hernandez just doesn't have the technique to do that.

When it comes to creating a bit of space for a shot himself then I agree, Defoe's actually quite good. That's about all he can do. Hernandez's build-up play is hit-and-miss and he does play some terrible passes but he's also far more capable of setting up his team-mates than Defoe. If Defoe can't create space for himself he just passes it to a team-mate 5 yards away, Hernández takes a lot more responsibility to try and advance the play even though he's obviously well aware he's not as gifted as so many others in the team. He's actively involved himself in the build-up throughout this season and done so well for the most part.

If Defoe were here he'd be asked to do the same thing and be shown up as a far more limited player. Even now when he's allowed to concentrate on just doing the basics he gives the ball just as often as Hernández whether that's through being dispossessed too easily or just inexplicably passing to the opposition. He plays just as many terrible passes but pretty much never sets up a team-mate with a nice piece of build-up play. We've seen more than a few great crosses and passes from Hernández this year in amongst the poorer ones. By the time he's Defoe's age it'll just look silly that they were ever compared in this sense, IMO.
 
We're comparing to strikers, not every player in those squads. Rethink.

Awesome:

Cisse
Adam le Fondre
Noel Hunt
Pavel Pogrebnyak
Jamie Mackie
James McFadden
Connor Wickham
Fraizer Campbell
Carlton Cole
Jay Rodriguez
Rickie Lambert
Tadanari Lee
Simeon Jackson
Andy Carroll


Do I really need to continue?
 
When it comes to creating a bit of space for a shot himself then I agree, Defoe's actually quite good. That's about all he can do. Hernandez's build-up play is hit-and-miss and he does play some terrible passes but he's also far more capable of setting up his team-mates than Defoe. If Defoe can't create space for himself he just passes it to a team-mate 5 yards away, Hernández takes a lot more responsibility to try and advance the play even though he's obviously well aware he's not as gifted as so many others in the team. He's actively involved himself in the build-up throughout this season and done so well for the most part.

If Defoe were here he'd be asked to do the same thing and be shown up as a far more limited player. Even now when he's allowed to concentrate on just doing the basics he gives the ball just as often as Hernández whether that's through being dispossessed too easily or just inexplicably passing to the opposition. He plays just as many terrible passes but pretty much never sets up a team-mate with a really nice piece of build-up play.

I don't see how you can look at some of the goals he's scored this year and say about all he can do is make a bit of space for himself. There's ample evidence of that not being true.
 
Awesome:

Cisse
Adam le Fondre
Noel Hunt
Pavel Pogrebnyak
Jamie Mackie
James McFadden
Connor Wickham
Fraizer Campbell
Carlton Cole
Jay Rodriguez
Rickie Lambert
Tadanari Lee
Simeon Jackson
Andy Carroll


Do I really need to continue?

Did you really think all this time I was saying his technique was worse than say, Gary Caldwell. Comedy stuff.
 
Hernandez has already come on leaps and bounds since he came to the club with his overall play. Very reminiscint of the way Andy Cole adapted his game to suit Manchester United. The more confident he eye in his ability the better he'll become at linking play. We're already seeing more of it this season.
 
Did you really think all this time I was saying his technique was worse than say, Gary Caldwell. Comedy stuff.

Good sidestep. :wenger:

I'll quit here, I mean you'll back this retarded "Championship" point until you're blue in the face and have been slated by everyone. As I said, I think your point really is "top 5-6 standard" you're just way too stubborn to go back on it.
Comedy stuff.
 
I don't see how you can look at some of the goals he's scored this year and say about all he can do is make a bit of space for himself. There's ample evidence of that not being true.

What, you mean he can dribble? He can but half the time he loses it because he's not that great at it. Just because it works a couple of times and looks great doesn't make him a good dribbler. I'm not sure why the goals he scored even come into the discussion anyway - we're talking about what he contributes to the team and how he links up with his teammates. Hernandez does this much better IMO.
 
I'm not surprised. You seem to be struggling to grasp simple concepts.

Being offside = something bad

Hernandez being offside = something we don't want

Being onside = good

Hernandez timing run - with help from supporting players = very good

You may notice we scored 4 goals today from our players being onside, and 0 from Hernandez running offside. We all understand that's the way he plays and that he gambles on the defence not working as a unit to play the offside trap but that doesn't mean he can't be criticized for being offside.

Smalling is a wonderful player and I still criticise him for getting that yellow card. He's a defender so he has to stop goals but that doesn't mean we don't call him out for giving away fouls. Because, you know, fouls are bad.

Oh for crying out loud. He's speechless because you seem unable to grasp that for Hernandez to break the offside trap as often as he does, he has to take a risk that sometimes he'll go a bit early and be caught offside.

You're basically criticising him for not being completely perfect every time. It's like having a go at RVP because not every single one of his shots ends up as a goal. How can you not understand this???
 
MrMojo also ignores the times when hernandez beats players on the dribble. You just clearly arent seeing something
 
I admire MrMojo's stubbornness, I must say. :lol:

Anyway, after watching match of the day there, some of his link up play with RVP was simply sublime. Didn't really appreciate it as much watching the match on a dodgy stream!
 
He is fantastic.

However Rooney will go right back to starting simply because Rooney is a better player in every way besides pace and one on one finishing.

Hernandez is our third striker and super-sub.

We are lucky to have him.
 
Good sidestep. :wenger:

I'll quit here, I mean you'll back this retarded "Championship" point until you're blue in the face and have been slated by everyone. As I said, I think your point really is "top 5-6 standard" you're just way too stubborn to go back on it.
Comedy stuff.

You keep mentioning getting slated, you realise that makes no difference don't you, it's just an opinion on a footballer you know.

Your list of strikers doesn't prompt anymore discussion, you already know my opinion on them and I know yours. I see no point in a head to head comparison with all those names.

What, you mean he can dribble? He can but half the time he loses it because he's not that great at it. Just because it works a couple of times and looks great doesn't make him a good dribbler. I'm not sure why the goals he scored even come into the discussion anyway - we're talking about what he contributes to the team and how he links up with his teammates. Hernandez does this much better IMO.

It's not about me saying he's a good dribbler, it's about is he better than Hernandez at it. He clearly is. Separate to dribbling I think Defoe's all round technique is better than Hernandez as well.
 
Grasp this:

Playing on the shoulder means timing a run perfectly with the help of a perfectly timed ball, if the ball is half a second late, it's offside, if it's half a second earlier it's now a GREAT run.

So yeah, as I said all along, we want Hernandez to play on the shoulder and inevitably he'll be offside sometimes, it certainly isn't something to criticise him over, it's just the job he's asked to do. Stretch defences and put them on the back foot.

Exactly.:lol:

People lack a bit of common sense though.
 
I admire MrMojo's stubbornness, I must say. :lol:

Anyway, after watching match of the day there, some of his link up play with RVP was simply sublime. Didn't really appreciate it as much watching the match on a dodgy stream!

Me too.:lol:
 
It's just occurred to me that Chico has already scored as many goals this season as he did last season and its only just turned new year. Only 8 goals more to equal his 2010/11 total. Very doable if you ask me.
 
It's not about me saying he's a good dribbler, it's about is he better than Hernandez at it. He clearly is. Separate to dribbling I think Defoe's all round technique is better than Hernandez as well.

You keep mentioning his goals though - that has nothing to do with the build-up play for me. Is Defoe a better passer? That would be the key thing when it comes to build-up play and Defoe's miles behind, IMO. Why are you talking about technique when the discussion was clearly about linkup play?
 
:lol:

Does anyone really think Hernandez isn't Premier League level? And I thought I was harsh on him in the Summer when I said he wouldn't be worth £20m (he clearly would based on this season, I happily admit). fecking hell, when you look at the quality of strikers of teams outside top 8 from last season, Hernandez is miles ahead of any of them, both in finishing and link-up play.
 
Hernandez is a poacher, no more, no less. He was bought for his ability and speed to pounce on a loose ball, zip about the box and accelerate faster than a flat footed central defender on the turn. In that sense his is similar to the technique of somebody like Denis law. His creativity and all round play will improve but he was bought essentially as a poacher. And he's bloody good at it. It's irrelevant how he compares to other premiership players.

This is Fergie's conundrum. Do you play a more rounded 'striker' like Wellbeck or a poacher like Chico? Or both? Or as a sub? Glad he's the one to decide.
 
You keep mentioning his goals though - that has nothing to do with the build-up play for me. Is Defoe a better passer? That would be the key thing when it comes to build-up play and Defoe's miles behind, IMO. Why are you talking about technique when the discussion was clearly about linkup play?

I used some of his goals, the one's that involve technique outside the area, as a marker of his ability. I stand by that, he shows a control of the ball that Hernandez doesn't have. Hernandez couldn't score those goals.

I don't understand why you're separating technique and linkup play, to me it's obvious that one dictates the other. I am surprised at the extent you believe Defoe' linkup is below Hernandez, to say he's miles behind? Funny how people see the same game so differently.
 
:lol:

Does anyone really think Hernandez isn't Premier League level? And I thought I was harsh on him in the Summer when I said he wouldn't be worth £20m (he clearly would based on this season, I happily admit). fecking hell, when you look at the quality of strikers of teams outside top 8 from last season, Hernandez is miles ahead of any of them, both in finishing and link-up play.

Is that actually how you've read this debate?
 
MrMojo just ignores any points that question his silly theories, weird. You talked all along about build up play and now you've changed it to "technique".

Also, Sarni's post includes the following:

"fecking hell, when you look at the quality of strikers of teams outside top 8 from last season, Hernandez is miles ahead of any of them, both in finishing and link-up play."

And Mojo just quotes a point that he can argue rather than one which shows up his argument, what a stubborn mo fo.
 
MrMojo just ignores any points that question his silly theories, weird. You talked all along about build up play and now you've changed it to "technique".

Also, Sarni's post includes the following:

"fecking hell, when you look at the quality of strikers of teams outside top 8 from last season, Hernandez is miles ahead of any of them, both in finishing and link-up play."

And Mojo just quotes a point that he can argue rather than one which shows up his argument, what a stubborn mo fo.

I don't understand what you're getting at, I've answered bucket loads of posts on this.

Build up play or technique(same thing to me), my opinion applies to both if you want to separate them.

Sarni's got the jist of what I'm saying wrong, check his first sentence and I'm pointing that out. Nowhere have I said that Hernandez isn't a Premiership striker so I won't have it misrepresented in that way.
 
MrMojo just ignores any points that question his silly theories, weird. You talked all along about build up play and now you've changed it to "technique".

He's clearly talking bollocks; just give up bothering him.

Link up play outside the box isn't Hernandez's strong point, but then that's not what he's relied upon for; the same can be said for the vast majority of strikers in the Premier League, so to say this aspect of his game is Championship level is just nonsense.
 
Sarni's got the jist of what I'm saying wrong, check his first sentence and I'm pointing that out. Nowhere have I said that Hernandez isn't a Premiership striker so I won't have it misrepresented in that way.

No, in the same way you jumped on me earlier in the hope that I'd also got it wrong, what you fail to realise is, Sarni directly argues your point later in his post, and you ignore it cause it's easier to say "he misunderstood you". He understood you perfectly, hence the bloody reference to BUILD UP PLAY!
 
The quality of your build up play is dictated by your technique. Touch, control, weight of pass etc etc.

Stop being so outraged, this isn't your mother we're discussing.

Not outraged, just flabbergasted that someone can be so silly as to think the majority of Premier League strikers have better "technique" than Hernandez. I can't help but post my complete disbelief.
 
The quality of your build up play is dictated by your technique. Touch, control, weight of pass etc etc.

Stop being so outraged, this isn't your mother we're discussing.

The quality of everything is dictated by technique. Technique just means 'how you do things.' The quality of Hernandez' goalkeeping is also dictated by his 'technique'.

Meanwhile, the actual debate was about the quality of Hernandez' build up play. As in, the stuff he has to do before someone scores the goal. You said it was Championship level. Everyone else said that it wasn't, and gave a load of reasons why it wasn't which you have spectacularly failed to try and address.
 
No, in the same way you jumped on me earlier in the hope that I'd also got it wrong, what you fail to realise is, Sarni directly argues your point later in his post, and you ignore it cause it's easier to say "he misunderstood you". He understood you perfectly, hence the bloody reference to BUILD UP PLAY!

Well you did get it wrong, badly, you started comparing Hernandez to entire squads from the Premiership.

I saw what Sarni said later in his post, but rather than ignore it I've surely covered it already. I'm not going to keep reiterating the same point every time somebody else disagrees.
 
The quality of everything is dictated by technique. Technique just means 'how you do things.' The quality of Hernandez' goalkeeping is also dictated by his 'technique'.

Meanwhile, the actual debate was about the quality of Hernandez' build up play. As in, the stuff he has to do before someone scores the goal. You said it was Championship level. Everyone else said that it wasn't, and gave a load of reasons why it wasn't which you have spectacularly failed to try and address.

It's just an opinion, just like the opposing view is an opinion. There isn't a series of points that have to be addressed. It starts and ends with just an opinion.
 
Well you did get it wrong, badly, you started comparing Hernandez to entire squads from the Premiership.

No mate, you just thought I meant that because I wrote "players" instead of strikers, hence my sarcastic "awesome" in the following post before writing a huge list of strikers that anyone who watches football knows are not as good as Hernandez in technique/build up play.

You can go back to my first real argument on it with you here where I name Heskey and Carroll (note, both STRIKERS). 2 players that have played at a good level in the Premiership for a few years, 2 players that are a good example of an average Premiership striker, 2 players that are simply not as good as Hernandez in build up play.

And I'm still waiting for that list of Championship strikers that have better technique than Hernandez, just 5 or 6 will do.
 
Maybe it's time to accept that there is something wrong about it when you have a lot of members disagreeing vividly with you MrJ

I've said that to others in the past, so I know where you're coming from. We all love Hernandez so I sort of understand the outrage, though I think they've taken it as a bigger criticism than what it actually is.

I still standby the opinion but I am going to leave it there before I'm Always Right finds out where I live.
 
I used some of his goals, the one's that involve technique outside the area, as a marker of his ability. I stand by that, he shows a control of the ball that Hernandez doesn't have. Hernandez couldn't score those goals.

I don't understand why you're separating technique and linkup play, to me it's obvious that one dictates the other. I am surprised at the extent you believe Defoe' linkup is below Hernandez, to say he's miles behind? Funny how people see the same game so differently.

I don't know, I think build-up play is more to do with what goes on in your head than what you can do with your feet. For example van Persie's a much better technician than Rooney but I don't think he's much better in the build-up at all. Hernández's technique isn't far behind Defoe's and he sees the game much better than Defoe. Sees the game, I've no idea how to phrase that better...it just seems to me like Hernández has a picture in his head of how moves should play out while everything Defoe does is instinctive and geared around creating a chance for himself. If you do play that way then you're more likely to have a couple of moments displaying a lot of individual quality. If Hernández wasn't a top-class poacher I think this side of his game might even be appreciated more.
 
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