Javier Hernandez | 2012/13 Performances

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MrMojo said:
I used a couple of quotes from the match day thread(I said then they were just an example of others seeing these shortcomings), I brought up the Newcastle game which you said was poor of me to do because he had a bad game. So I can't use games he's played poorly in. I've given my opinion based on what I've seen for the last two and a half years.

I'm genuinely baffled as to what else I could use as evidence. As far as I'm aware there aren't stats for miscontrol, over hit passes etc.

One thing's for sure, I haven't spent two days on a wum, but it's all good, it's livened things up and stimulated a bit of debate.
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Where did I say the newcastle game was poor of you to do? When did you even mention it? You must thinking of another poster. There's not much debate here though.

You stated two rubbish opinions and if anything has further showed that although Hernandez has a few weaknesses in his game, they arent as bad as you make them out. In fact, I'm sure now more posters share the opinion that Hernandez's link up play is decent PL level rather than Championship level standard.

One of your quotes was simply inaccurate as Hernandez had completed some passes. His passing was off while the team's passing as a whole was off. After we picked it up, he picked it up as well. Sent in a good ball to RVP who did the rest with some sublime play. The other quote is a from a poster who said in this very thread that he had criticized Hernandez's link up play heavily but has been recently impressed by Hernandez's improvement.
Once again, those quotes highlighted more about how the match day thread is knee-jerk than assessing a player's ability. You still haven't shown how Hernandez's link up play is championship standard.

I just think you overly exaggerate his weaknesses and your claims show that. It's just nonsense.
 
Here's evidence. Aside from 1 or 2 misplaced passes, which to be fair, even the likes of Rooney do a few times per game, you can see that Hernandez is often excellent at getting out of tight situations, uses his pace superbly, has a nice eye for a pass etc (as Brwned said earlier, he seems to have a good picture of the game in his head). Plenty better than anything you see in the bottom half of the Prem. He'd be the Championship's best player by a country mile, not just the best finisher.

You can't judge Hernandez on a poor piece of play here or there, judge him on his overall play throughout a game.



 
I keep worrying about how much longer we'll be able to keep Hernandez happy as a third choice striker, whilst also discounting the fact that he may yet still improve massively. His overall game looks miles better to me than it does last year and in his debut season, and you get the impression that there's more to come on that front. There have been times for example whereby he's showed slight flashes of good dribbling ability for example, so if he starts adding that to his game whilst continuing to improve in other areas we could have a fantastic player.

Not that he isn't already quality, though. Thought the signs were pretty ominous for him when we signed Van Persie, but he's stepped up to the challenge remarkably.
 
Chico's Wigan highlights have shown up on YouTube:

 
I'm always right said:
Did he really? hmmmm.....
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Cheers for that. It's getting really tiring having to constantly post something along the lines of: 'Here's what you claim I said, and here's what I actually said. They're completely different, could you try answering my point again please.' Case in point to follow...

Lawman said:
Not sure who said this and who's arguing for or against but there are a lot of attributes in a player that is not equated to technique. Bravery, unselfishness and game intelligence being a few. I have played with players deemed to have poor technique and are actually the very important/better players in our team.
Personally I have seen players in the lower level have better technique than Hernandez but they don't have the overall package what Hernandez offers. When I watch Hernandez his touch is average as is his passing but what he excels at is his pace movement finishing and knowing how to work a 18 yard box for the space he wants to find. So if you are measuring technique on passing and touch only then yes he does have average technique and you will find players at a lower level with better technique but if you are adding in the other attributes then thats another matter. The whole package should be the defining thing.
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You probably should have stopped there. You've missed my point, which isn't surprising given that you admit to not having actually looked for it. I'll summarise: MrMojo claimed Hernandez' build-up play was 'Championship level'. While defending this opinion, he started talking about 'technique', comparing Defoe's goals with Chico's. I'm always right correctly pointed out that in that sense, the argument wasn't about 'technique', it was just about build-up play. 'Technique' could arguably cover shooting technique, and goalscoring was something which no-one was questioning. Comparisons of the 'technique' of Defoe's goals with Chico's was irrelevant: we were only talking about build-up play, which only covers a specific category of technique. So using the word was just clouding the argument.

As you can see, I was just pointing out a way in which MrMojo was avoiding the real point of the debate; it wasn't a major issue. If I didn't have such an OCD about not being misrepresented, I'd probably have let your post go. But I do, so I didn't.
 
Nice vids, by the way. Cheers lads.

Chest control to start the move for Van Persie's second which RVP himself would've been pleased with.
 
Varun_Utd said:
I dont agree. At a club like ours, its only the 4th striker that has to worry. The first 3 will get plenty of games. Yes, he'l not start most of the toughest games but he'd still come on in most and because of how different he is, even get plenty of starts.
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That's pretty much what I was saying, he wont start the majority of games when Rooney and RVP are both fit, but he will hopefully be happy enough with the amount he does get, which is still decent, to keep him here and not have him wanting a move.
 
Devil may care said:
That's pretty much what I was saying, he wont start the majority of games when Rooney and RVP are both fit, but he will hopefully be happy enough with the amount he does get, which is still decent, to keep him here and not have him wanting a move.
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Hopefully. Depends where Kagawa plays though because he looks far better further forward in the Rooney role behind the leading striker, so now that he is fit will be in contention for one of the two forward spots.

Unless he moves to the left, but that hasn't been indicated much so far.
 
Devil may care said:
That's pretty much what I was saying, he wont start the majority of games when Rooney and RVP are both fit, but he will hopefully be happy enough with the amount he does get, which is still decent, to keep him here and not have him wanting a move.
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Even when both are Fit, There will be enough rotation to keep him happy. He seems to love being here which should help.

What a signing. 7mil in today's market. Respect to his agent and club too for keeping it under wraps..
 
Theon said:
Hopefully. Depends where Kagawa plays though because he looks far better further forward in the Rooney role behind the leading striker, so now that he is fit will be in contention for one of the two forward spots.

Unless he moves to the left, but that hasn't been indicated much so far.
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I dont see how we'l fit in kagawa if not on the left playing as an inside forward rather than a Winger
 
Brightonian said:
Cheers for that. It's getting really tiring having to constantly post something along the lines of: 'Here's what you claim I said, and here's what I actually said. They're completely different, could you try answering my point again please.' Case in point to follow...



You probably should have stopped there. You've missed my point, which isn't surprising given that you admit to not having actually looked for it. I'll summarise: MrMojo claimed Hernandez' build-up play was 'Championship level'. While defending this opinion, he started talking about 'technique', comparing Defoe's goals with Chico's. I'm always right correctly pointed out that in that sense, the argument wasn't about 'technique', it was just about build-up play. 'Technique' could arguably cover shooting technique, and goalscoring was something which no-one was questioning. Comparisons of the 'technique' of Defoe's goals with Chico's was irrelevant: we were only talking about build-up play, which only covers a specific category of technique. So using the word was just clouding the argument.

As you can see, I was just pointing out a way in which MrMojo was avoiding the real point of the debate; it wasn't a major issue. If I didn't have such an OCD about not being misrepresented, I'd probably have let your post go. But I do, so I didn't.
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I was trying to be neutral but in hindsight I could have read the posts before entering the debate. But MrMojo has a point about Hernandez in the build up play as there are players in the lower leagues who are better at this. But Hernandez other attributes more than cover these weaker aspects of his play. On a side note no real shock seeing I'm always right and Brightonion tag teaming in posts again. Carry on......Maybe I should have stopped there!
 
Its pretty clear Mr Mojo himself knows he is wrong and made a worng comment.

But is too stubborn to admit it.
 
I'm always right said:
You could confirm or deny the following:

The following players have better technique and build up than Hernandez:

Cisse
Adam le Fondre
Sessegnon
Noel Hunt
Pavel Pogrebnyak
Jamie Mackie
James McFadden
Connor Wickham
Fraizer Campbell
Carlton Cole
Jay Rodriguez
Rickie Lambert
Tadanari Lee
Simeon Jackson
Andy Carroll

Because if there were stats for stats for miscontrol, over hit passes etc, these feckers would be way higher up on the list. Only a complete fool would say that Hernandez technique and build up isn't on the same standard as these players, hell throw the bloody brain-dead Sturridge into that mix too.

My issue with you is that you surely must realise that this is true and that your "Premiership Standard" is not actually "Premiership Standard", you are simply talking about the standards you expect from the top 6 or so teams in the league. But... you are way too stubborn to accept this now and keep harping on about "Championship Level", well my guess is, you've never watched a Championship game in your life if you think that.
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You already know my opinion of where he stands in comparison to the vast majority of other Premiership strikers. I've told you what standard I believe his build up play is at so I don't understand why you need it reiterating again.

I don't think he's worse than Andy Carroll but as we've already discussed, I think you using Andy Carroll to define Premiership standard is wrong, as is including players like Wickham. The fact you think Sessegnon has worse technique than Hernandez shows me just how incorrect you are in youre rating of Hernandez.
 
Platato said:
Where did I say the newcastle game was poor of you to do? When did you even mention it? You must thinking of another poster. There's not much debate here though.
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Here you go, this was after the Newcastle game, ironically I wasn't actually using the Newcastle game as an example,it was just coincidence, but obviously you had a problem with it.

Platato said:
. If you actually felt that was the case, then you would have argued against the consensus in those games as well. From what I've seen, you've chosen his worst game to say something. Poor form.
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So with your insatiable demand for evidence comes a problem, it's poor form to use a game he's played poorly in, other posters comments don't count and my opinion based on watching him for two years doesn't count.

Yet above I see YouTube compilations, if I'd found a compilation of his worst bits would any of you have accepted it. Of course not and rightly so because we all know compilation vids are the most malleable piece of crappy evidence out there.
 
What a stupidly pointless argument. The guy scores piles of goals, and important ones at that, and helps Manchester United win games. That'll do for me.
 
I know Hernandez has holes in his game, but he always looks so dangerous going forward. I always fancy him to score. I would love to see him get a nice run in the team.
 
MrMojo said:
Yet above I see YouTube compilations, if I'd found a compilation of his worst bits would any of you have accepted it. Of course not and rightly so because we all know compilation vids are the most malleable piece of crappy evidence out there.
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They aren't youtube compilations of his best bits ffs, they are player cams of ever touch Hernandez has in a game. Pretty fecking good evidence I'm sure even you'll agree.
 
I'm always right said:
They aren't youtube compilations of his best bits ffs, they are player cams of ever touch Hernandez has in a game. Pretty fecking good evidence I'm sure even you'll agree.
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If you want to use one game, if that's what you've meant by evidence all this time,then ok.

I'm not going to respond in kind, using his touches from one game seems inadequate to me whichever side of the argument you're on.
 
Ha ha, you're unreal. Now even a cam of a players every touch for 3 recent games isn't enough evidence because it's on youtube. So how the feck do we judge then, by how many keep ups he does in his garden?!

Amazing!
 
I'm always right said:
You could confirm or deny the following:

The following players have better technique and build up than Hernandez:

Cisse
Adam le Fondre
Sessegnon
Noel Hunt
Pavel Pogrebnyak
Jamie Mackie
James McFadden
Connor Wickham
Fraizer Campbell
Carlton Cole
Jay Rodriguez
Rickie Lambert
Tadanari Lee
Simeon Jackson
Andy Carroll

Because if there were stats for stats for miscontrol, over hit passes etc, these feckers would be way higher up on the list. Only a complete fool would say that Hernandez technique and build up isn't on the same standard as these players, hell throw the bloody brain-dead Sturridge into that mix too.

My issue with you is that you surely must realise that this is true and that your "Premiership Standard" is not actually "Premiership Standard", you are simply talking about the standards you expect from the top 6 or so teams in the league. But... you are way too stubborn to accept this now and keep harping on about "Championship Level", well my guess is, you've never watched a Championship game in your life if you think that.
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I agree with you overall but having Sessegnon on that is a bit ridiculous. His build up play is much much better than those listed and is far superior to Hernandez as well.

Javier has improved a lot in this aspect but whilst it's never going to be one his strengths, moves no longer break down when it comes to him as much as they did last season. If he can carry on improving his touch and awareness on the ball we'll have an even more fearsome player on our hands.
 
I'm always right said:
Ha ha, you're unreal. Now even a cam of a players every touch for 3 recent games isn't enough evidence because it's on youtube. So how the feck do we judge then, by how many keep ups he does in his garden?!

Amazing!
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I think Youtube videos are a rubbish way of judging a player, especially when they include four replays of a penalty and fifteen fouls. But if you are going to use them at least balance it out by including every touch from the Norwich and Newcastle games.

How do you judge him? Just give your opinion based on everything you've seen from him, what I've been saying all along.
 
MrMojo said:
I think Youtube videos are a rubbish way of judging a player, especially when they include four replays of a penalty and fifteen fouls. But if you are going to use them at least balance it out by including every touch from the Norwich and Newcastle games.

How do you judge him? Just give your opinion based on everything you've seen from him, what I've been saying all along.
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Would you accept then if the majority of opinions are going against you, there may be some substance behind that?
 
His passing isn't sublime, but his passing stats aren't far behind Rooney actually. I think we tend to pay more attention to mistakes in some players than in others. If Scholes misses a pass it is like "bloody hell, Scholes just missed a pass - that's unlike him". If Cleverley misses a pass, no one notice. When Hernandez misses a pass or has a bad touch, a lot of people notice it immediately. Tbf, his technique isn't close to that of RVP, but it isn't as bad as many would argue. Against Wigan, he started kind of shaky, but he had some very good touches too with some nice passing. It isn't his strongest part of the game, but it's not like playing with 10 men.
 
Jaybezia said:
Would you accept then if the majority of opinions are going against you, there may be some substance behind that?
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I believe there's substance, but would you change your opinion JUST because others disagree? I've criticised a much loved United player on a United forum, I didn't expect a bunch of flowers.

Some people want to be outraged and often that means they take your opinion the wrong way. I'm Always Right has taken my opinion as 'Hernandez has got the worst build up play in the Premiership.' It's not what I've said so bringing up payers like Mackie, Jackson, Wickham, players who've spent most of their careers in the lower divisions is a pointless comparison. They too are not Premiership standard. Essentially I just don't see what he does outside the box that a good Championship player couldn't.

Those who say what does it matter, yes I completely see that point of view and in fact here was my original comment that caused such objection

MrMojo said:
He's Championship level outside the box but he's unique in a way and so as a backup he's perfect.

His commitment yesterday was great, ran himself into oblivion.
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I said I was going to leave it there about 10 posts back, so at this point I'm deffo going to leave it.
 
MrMojo said:
I believe there's substance, but would you change your opinion JUST because others disagree? I've criticised a much loved United player on a United forum, I didn't expect a bunch of flowers.

Some people want to be outraged and often that means they take your opinion the wrong way. I'm Always Right has taken my opinion as 'Hernandez has got the worst build up play in the Premiership.' It's not what I've said so bringing up payers like Mackie, Jackson, Wickham, players who've spent most of their careers in the lower divisions is a pointless comparison. They too are not Premiership standard. Essentially I just don't see what he does outside the box that a good Championship player couldn't.

Those who say what does it matter, yes I completely see that point of view and in fact here was my original comment that caused such objection
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I can agree with a lot of that, reading your discussions between the pair of you, I can fathom what has happened, also knowing Im always Right and what he is like, also helps. However, I agree with his point, that he is premiership outside the box, but even if he isn't, surely you don't need to be quite clearly as he is a lethal striker in the EPL. However, as far as build up play goes, he is clearly a lot worse than Rooney or RVP, but that is a lot to compare it to IMO, if you look at somelike like Carlton Cole who is a good example, he spent a lot of time the EPL (And still currently is) so surely he 'EPL' standard, now I think you would agree That for all Hernandez’s shortcomings, he is more of a finished player than Cole, not just a better striker but a more complete player. Its very hard to define 'championship' or 'PL' level because a lot of top Championship players are better than some of the lesser PL players, its always the way. I think its fair to say outside the box, he is in the lower half of the PL for his build up skills, which I have just acknowledged is also akin to the standard of which is at the top of the championship.

However, I would not just 'change' my opinion because of an overwhelming majority that disagree but, I have done in the past because of this because a lot of other people have more information of bring things up I may have forgotten, I would like to think I am not stubborn enough not to change my view, again not saying that you are, merely replying to your comment.
 
Is it necessary to keep on about Chicharito's "lack of technique" or that "as long as he is happy that he is 3rd or 4th choice..." etc.

Utter wank. The guy has scored at every level, including the World Cup.

Who the feck cares about the occasional misplaced pass???

He's a natural goal scorer, and we should be thankful we have him, instead of constantly highlighting his deficiencies.

Come the time, if he wants to go (to La Liga, probably) then so be it.
 
Cina said:
Probably for the best, cause you're talking gobbledeegook.
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To be fair Cina I think MrMojo is spot on in his initial post. Just a few posters have jumped on him imo for daring to point out blatant faults in Hernandez game. He never at any point said he wasn't a quality player.
 
MrMojo said:
Here you go, this was after the Newcastle game, ironically I wasn't actually using the Newcastle game as an example,it was just coincidence, but obviously you had a problem with it.



So with your insatiable demand for evidence comes a problem, it's poor form to use a game he's played poorly in, other posters comments don't count and my opinion based on watching him for two years doesn't count.

Yet above I see YouTube compilations, if I'd found a compilation of his worst bits would any of you have accepted it. Of course not and rightly so because we all know compilation vids are the most malleable piece of crappy evidence out there.
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I see you misunderstood my point there. My point was you only decided to come out and criticize the boy when he had a bad game but I've not seen you in this thread to give him some praise as well when he does have good games. That's why I said poor form. It's like someone waiting for Nani or valencia to have a bad game and then say some outlandish statement about him.

You have a problem with taking things the wrong way. You can use the newcastle game as evidence but I said poor form because I didn't feel you being fair to the lad. Don't act like I dont see when he's had a bad game. He's had a few. I think you should also give credit to hernandez when he has a good game in terms of link up play which I have yet to see you do.

The youtube compilations show the touches of the player for the whole match...good AND bad. If a player compilation shows every touch a player had in an entire game (good and bad), how is that crappy evidence?
 
Lawman said:
To be fair Cina I think MrMojo is spot on in his initial post. Just a few posters have jumped on him imo for daring to point out blatant faults in Hernandez game. He never at any point said he wasn't a quality player.
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But what does Championship level even mean? That's a pretty low standard mate and if that was the case, I don't think Hernandez would be playing so many games. You have to contribute in some way to our build up play. Something which he is getting better at. Going by your logic, most PL strikers are championship level.
 
about time we stopped all this stupid championship level bollocks.

Players who are championship level don't start for Man Utd.
 
Platato said:
But what does Championship level even mean? That's a pretty low standard mate and if that was the case, I don't think Hernandez would be playing so many games. You have to contribute in some way to our build up play. Something which he is getting better at. Going by your logic, most PL strikers are championship level.
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I'm a big admirer of Chico but I can't see what MrMojo said wrong. He basically said his build up play was not the strongest part of his game but he excells in other areas thus making up for it. I don't think many would disagree it just annoys me when the usual suspects start twisting his point round to fit their views. Much the same was said about Andy Cole and he's a united legend in my book. Hopefully hernadez will become one too as his goals scoring is deadly.
 
Diabo_Sam said:
He scores goals, important goals.
enough for me, so stop this wank.
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Can we also stop this 'stop this wank' wank. It's not that big or clever to pop into a thread, tell everyone in it to shut up, and then leave again. There's a debate going on in the Hernandez thread about Hernandez, deal with it.

Lawman said:
To be fair Cina I think MrMojo is spot on in his initial post. Just a few posters have jumped on him imo for daring to point out blatant faults in Hernandez game.
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Lawman, everyone in the entire thread since MrMojo made that comment has disagreed with him, except you. And it's not about 'daring to point out blatant faults', it's about making an absurdly over-the-top criticism.

Lawman said:
He basically said his build up play was not the strongest part of his game but he excells in other areas thus making up for it.
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No he didn't. If he had, we would of course all have agreed with him. He actually said his build-up play was 'chamionship level'. If that had just been a clumsy turn of phrase, he probably would have explained what he actually meant when challenged. Instead, he has stuck mulishly by that statement, hence the argument.
 
Lawman said:
I'm a big admirer of Chico but I can't see what MrMojo said wrong. He basically said his build up play was not the strongest part of his game but he excells in other areas thus making up for it. I don't think many would disagree it just annoys me when the usual suspects start twisting his point round to fit their views. Much the same was said about Andy Cole and he's a united legend in my book. Hopefully hernadez will become one too as his goals scoring is deadly.
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But he said Championship level. Something I think is absolute nonsense. If he meant "not the strongest part of his game" then he should say so. We dont read minds here.

Everyone here recognizes Hernandez's build up play is not his strong suit. No one has twisted his point. They just don't agree with it.

He said two things.

1) Hernandez's play outside the box is championship level

2) Defoe has better link-up play than Hernandez (then he tried to argue about Defoe's technique which has nothing to do with the original 'debate')

The second point is the only one he backed up. The first one well.......

The thing is Hernandez has improved. The YT compilations indicate at least some semblance of that. They may not be the best indicator but they at least show all the touches he's had in a game. Both good and bad.

I've said it before but his link up play is inconsistent. So if you're someone who mostly focuses on the bad things he does in a game then you'll still feel his overall game is quite poor despite him playing a good pass or something to that effect. Other players could misplace a bad pass but it's not a big deal. When Hernandez does it, some people overly magnify it.
 
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