Javier Hernandez | 2012/13 Performances

[MrMojo]

I don't know, I think build-up play is more to do with what goes on in your head than what you can do with your feet. For example van Persie's a much better technician than Rooney but I don't think he's much better in the build-up at all. Hernández's technique isn't far behind Defoe's and he sees the game much better than Defoe. Sees the game, I've no idea how to phrase that better...it just seems to me like Hernández has a picture in his head of how moves should play out while everything Defoe does is instinctive and geared around creating a chance for himself. If he wasn't a top-class poacher I think this side of his game might even be appreciated more.

I take the point on it being in the head, though that's difficult to quantify, ultimately though any idea has to be practically translated to the pitch, so that's when touch and control comes into it.

I said earlier that Rooney is a good example at a higher level. Whilst he can play at RVP's level, he can't in my opinion do it consistently. At times I think there is a big difference in there link up play and that's down to technique level. Rooney's isn't as good and as such it let's him down for periods of time. Seemingly RVP knows that even on an off day his technique is such that he can always rely on it.

Like I say, I'm leaving any Hernandez debate now, the number of times I've replied on it makes it look like I hate the guy.

 

[Brightonian]

I've said that to others in the past, so I know where you're coming from. We all love Hernandez so I sort of understand the outrage, though I think they've taken it as a bigger criticism than what it actually is.

Oh, how very subtle. Like telling a female employee that you understand that her being paid less than her male colleagues is an 'emotional issue' and that it's only natural that she might get a bit 'hysterical' about it all.

No-one's outraged, and the fact that we all love Hernandez has nothing to do with it. You're just wrong. And don't pull out the 'it's all subjective' card either, please. If I claimed that Welbeck was better than Messi, I wouldn't get away with that excuse. Why should you?

 

[MrMojo]

I find out where you live if you don't give me a fecking list of 5-6 Championship players that have better technique than Hernandez!

This is definitely my last post on the matter.

You don't need a list of Championship strikers whose build up play is BETTER than his. I've never argued that. I've only said that it's at that level.

 

[I'm always right]

You don't need a list of Championship strikers whose build up play is BETTER than his. I've never argued that. I've only said that it's at that level.

Oh bloody hell, 5 or 6 at his level then.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Just a passing thought. Do you think we could be brave enough to play with 3 strikers? Hernandez up top next to Rooney and v.Persie dropping back. It would mean eliminating natural wingers mind.

 

[I'm always right]

it makes it look like I hate the guy.

I don't think that at all, far from it. I just think you have no idea what you're talking about and probably need to watch more football outside of the top 6, and you could also do with watching some of the shite football dished out by strikers in the Championship week in week out.

 

[kietotheworld]

Just a passing thought. Do you think we could be brave enough to play with 3 strikers? Hernandez up top next to Rooney and v.Persie dropping back. It would mean eliminating natural wingers mind.

Yes, we've already done it this season, although it was Rooney dropping back.

 

[wonnie]

Just a passing thought. Do you think we could be brave enough to play with 3 strikers? Hernandez up top next to Rooney and v.Persie dropping back. It would mean eliminating natural wingers mind.

We could in some games, obviously. But I don't think I could ever see a line-up containing those 3 as a best XI line-up.

 

[Drainy]

I may be far behind, and the debate has moved on but- Defoe is a fairly one dimensional player, he is great at making a run to get into a position to take a touch to get the ball out of his feet (yes he is capable of beating a man if the defender's reading of the situation is off) and when the stars align he is a great striker of the ball..

Hernandez plays on his toes, alters his runs depending on the needs of the team and is great at finding the finish that is suits the situation, rather than needing the situation to suit him.

Now Hernandez isn't completely out of form we can see that his first touch is actually pretty damn good- his passing is a little basic and can be inconsistent but it's workable because he gets into positions where he can lay it on for people.

 

[Fergus' son]

Oh bloody hell, 5 or 6 at his level then.

Give it up, he'll never give in.

 

[Platato]

We all know you don't hate Hernandez Mojo. It's just the points you offered up have been absolute rubbish. Then you constantly dogde people's opinions except Brwned. You haven't offered any sort of substance to your "hernandez's link up play is championship standard" argument.

Maybe if you actually had a case for yourself, less people would actually jump on you.
IMO, if you think Hernandez's play is so shoddy then I guess you see other PL strikers' link up play as really really good. Something I fundamentally disagree with.

For me, I just don't see any substance with your opinion. It's fine if you have it, but from what I've seen I think there's more evidence pointing towards showing Hernandez's link up play is at a decent PL striker level more so than a Championship level.

 

[Maagge]

I may be far behind, and the debate has moved on but- Defoe is a fairly one dimensional player, he is great at making a run to get into a position to take a touch to get the ball out of his feet (yes he is capable of beating a man if the defender's reading of the situation is off) and when the stars align he is a great striker of the ball..

Hernandez plays on his toes, alters his runs depending on the needs of the team and is great at finding the finish that is suits the situation, rather than needing the situation to suit him.

Now Hernandez isn't completely out of form we can see that his first touch is actually pretty damn good- his passing is a little basic and can be inconsistent but it's workable because he gets into positions where he can lay it on for people.

This is a very important point regarding build up play. If you know you're not as technically gifted as some of the best out there just keep it simple and let others try the more difficult passes. You'll still keep the moves going if you're just in the right positions to receive the ball.

 

[wonnie]

We all know you don't hate Hernandez Mojo. It's just the points you offered up have been absolute rubbish. Then you constantly dogde people's opinions except Brwned. You haven't offered any sort of substance to your "hernandez's link up play is championship standard" argument.

Maybe if you actually had a case for yourself, less people would actually jump on you.
IMO, if you think Hernandez's play is so shoddy then I guess you see other PL strikers' link up play as really really good. Something I fundamentally disagree with.

For me, I just don't see any substance with your opinion. It's fine if you have it, but from what I've seen I think there's more evidence pointing towards showing Hernandez's link up play is at a decent PL striker level more so than a Championship level.

Also if you look at all the Utd forwards in recent seasons - Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Berbatov, Tevez, Ronaldo, Saha and etc - all of those players have/had phenomenal link-up play, all of them were complete forwards. We're a bit spoilt with strikers so when someone is obviously a level or two below them in linking up the play it's easier to label it 'championship standard'.

 

[Brwned]

I don't think that at all, far from it. I just think you have no idea what you're talking about and probably need to watch more football outside of the top 6, and you could also do with watching some of the shite football dished out by strikers in the Championship week in week out.

Agreed. I think there's loads of people who love Hernandez that also think he's a very, very limited player but can't be arsed arguing about it. I just think it's unfair given what he's shown this season and for Mexico previously. His all-round game still needs a lot of work but it's now at the stage where he is for me certainly contributing enough in the build-up that he can play well without scoring. This has never been the case for Defoe and I'd absolutely much rather have Hernández on the ball than the likes of Cameron Jerome, Jonathan Walters, Djibril Cisse, Andy Carroll and co.

 

[kouroux]

MrMojo, I think you're taking us for idiots when you more or less imply that our love for Hernandez is blinding our rating of him and his skills in terms of building up.That's a rather cheap shot, I can tell you that it's got nothing with to do with our love.
It's an objective analysis of Chicharito's skills.You know it's not a humiliation or a shame to concede a point over a debate, au contraire I would say.In this battle of opinions, you're alone in yours and you're making a fool out of yourself.It's your opinion, I respect it but at the same time I think it's shit

 

[Tomuś]

You can go back to my first real argument on it with you here where I name Heskey and Carroll (note, both STRIKERS). 2 players that have played at a good level in the Premiership for a few years, 2 players that are a good example of an average Premiership striker, 2 players that are simply not as good as Hernandez in build up play.

Heskey (for the last few years) and Carroll (by default) aren't your average PL strikers though - well below that. Someone ranging from Carlton Cole to Shane Long would be way more appropriate to compare with.

 

[Platato]

Also if you look at all the Utd forwards in recent seasons - Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Berbatov, Tevez, Ronaldo, Saha and etc - all of those players have/had phenomenal link-up play, all of them were complete forwards. We're a bit spoilt with strikers so when someone is obviously a level or two below them in linking up the play it's easier to label it 'championship standard'.

Spot on.

Agreed. I think there's loads of people who love Hernandez that also think he's a very, very limited player but can't be arsed arguing about it. I just think it's unfair given what he's shown this season and for Mexico previously. His all-round game still needs a lot of work but it's now at the stage where he is for me certainly contributing enough in the build-up that he can play well without scoring. This has never been the case for Defoe and I'd absolutely much rather have Hernández on the ball than the likes of Cameron Jerome, Jonathan Walters, Djibril Cisse, Andy Carroll and co.

Brwned, did you ever see his assist in the Gold Cup final a couple years back? It was golden.

 

[finneh]

This is a very important point regarding build up play. If you know you're not as technically gifted as some of the best out there just keep it simple and let others try the more difficult passes. You'll still keep the moves going if you're just in the right positions to receive the ball.

I totally agree. Most strikers have to compensate for the poor parts of their game in some form. Rooney for instance often takes his first touch on the run nowadays, as he realises it often bounces 4-5 yards away from his body and if stood still this causes us to lose possession. The poor part of Berbatov's game cost him his place in our squad, despite him being a much better player technically than Hernandez.

Talk of technique in this respect is often superfluous. You build your game around your strengths and try to make your weaknesses as irrelevant as possible, and improve them to the extent that they don't hinder you as a player. I think most people can agree that Hernandez' weaknesses are improving, but even if he was the player he is now forever he'd still be an invaluable player to a title winning team, because his weaknesses don't massively hinder his game.

This is where for instance Welbeck is almost the opposite. As it stands he has a more rounded game but he isn't as valuable in our squad because aspects of his game that are vital to his play aren't yet up to scratch or consistent enough.

 

[Platato]

Heskey (for the last few years) and Carroll (by default) aren't your average PL strikers though - well below that. Someone ranging from Carlton Cole to Shane Long would be way more appropriate to compare with.

And yet Cole or Long aren't that great outside the box either.

 

[MrMojo]

We all know you don't hate Hernandez Mojo. It's just the points you offered up have been absolute rubbish. Then you constantly dogde people's opinions except Brwned. You haven't offered any sort of substance to your "hernandez's link up play is championship standard" argument.

Maybe if you actually had a case for yourself, less people would actually jump on you.
IMO, if you think Hernandez's play is so shoddy then I guess you see other PL strikers' link up play as really really good. Something I fundamentally disagree with.

For me, I just don't see any substance with your opinion. It's fine if you have it, but from what I've seen I think there's more evidence pointing towards showing Hernandez's link up play is at a decent PL striker level more so than a Championship level.

I must have racked up thirty posts on the matter before I responded to Brwned, so I don't see what I'm dodging other than tediously repeating the same argument.

What case do you want me to make other than my opinion, it's not like there's hard evidence I can point to as it's completely subjective.

 

[Tomuś]

And yet Cole or Long aren't that great outside the box either.

True

 

[Platato]

It's really not all that subjective mojo. There's such a thing as a wrong opinion. If I can point to examples where I think Hernandez has shown good bits of link up play why can't you show the opposite?

Unless you're saying there's no point to backing up your own opinion. In your last sentence you try to cover up by making the assertion it's completely subjective whilst at the same time making a statement with an objective overtone. What you are playing at here mate? In other threads, you've backed up your opinion by using concrete examples. Why is it so hard to do it here?

 

[Tomuś]

His play outside of the box has clearly been his weak point but as long as he keeps working on that and improving bit by bit, which he does, I can't see the point of overtalking it.

He would be a starter in each and every single PL club bar us and City, it's just the fact that United want and need their strikers to be almost equally as good outside as inside the box.

He won't become van Persie or Rooney, but he'll be a terrific player once he adds that little more to his locker, which I'm sure he will. He's already become a real nuisance with his pace and simple passes during our counter-attacks. Right now he's a great goal-scorer who has a gift of finding himself in great position. It's more than just talent, his parents must have had some kind of a pact with God when he was born.

 

[MrMojo]

It's really not all that subjective mojo. There's such a thing as a wrong opinion. If I can point to examples where I think Hernandez has shown good bits of link up play why can't you show the opposite?

Unless you're saying there's no point to backing up your own opinion. In your last sentence you try to cover up by making the assertion it's completely subjective whilst at the same time making a statement with an objective overtone. What you are playing at here mate? In other threads, you've backed up your opinion by using concrete examples. Why is it so hard to do it here?

You're elevating to Fiscal Cliff status, it's just not that complicated. I have an opinion, if you don't agree fine, this has been a good debate I think wether you believe I'm right or wrong.

I've already told you that using a particular pass to prove your point is inadequate, so conversely I'm not about to pick one bad pass and herald it as evidence. That seems like a twatty thing to do. Call that dodging all you like, I'd call it being fair. This is my opinion based on his two and a half years at the club.

Like I keep saying, I'm not going to re enter the actual debate on him, if I haven't conveyed the argument with my previous thirty posts then I never will.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Agreed, this has been a good example of a debate in which the losing side brought absolutely no evidence to the table to support his nonsense claims and thus got demolished completely resulting in a feeble play of the Opinion Card. Very interesting.

 

[MrMojo]

Agreed, this has been a good example of a debate in which the losing side brought absolutely no evidence to the table to support his nonsense claims and thus got demolished completely resulting in a feeble play of the Opinion Card. Very interesting.

Take step back, get some perspective, this isn't a court of law.

 

[Fergus' son]

Still would love to know who these championship strikers that are better than Hernandez outside of the box are.

 

[Fergus' son]

Agreed, this has been a good example of a debate in which the losing side brought absolutely no evidence to the table to support his nonsense claims and thus got demolished completely resulting in a feeble play of the Opinion Card. Very interesting.

 

[lapassion]

Still would love to know who these championship strikers that are better than Hernandez outside of the box are.

No no, not better! Should be at the same level! What a strange debate!

 

[Fergus' son]

No no, not better! Should be at the same level! What a strange debate!

Oh yeah, important qualification!

 

[kouroux]

I don't understand why MrMojo felt the need to defend his ridiculous opinion in the first place, I think he initially meant it as some sort of joke regarding Chicha's skills on the ball.Either that or he's completely clueless

 

[Striker10]

We're lucky to have him. This season was a big challenge for him with Van Persie coming in but he's found his form again and am delighted. He's not without faults, but there's no point highlighting them. We know what he's good at. With games, he will improve on the other aspects of his game

 

[Lawman]

The quality of everything is dictated by technique. Technique just means 'how you do things.' The quality of Hernandez' goalkeeping is also dictated by his 'technique'.

Meanwhile, the actual debate was about the quality of Hernandez' build up play. As in, the stuff he has to do before someone scores the goal. You said it was Championship level. Everyone else said that it wasn't, and gave a load of reasons why it wasn't which you have spectacularly failed to try and address.

Not sure who said this and who's arguing for or against but there are a lot of attributes in a player that is not equated to technique. Bravery, unselfishness and game intelligence being a few. I have played with players deemed to have poor technique and are actually the very important/better players in our team.
Personally I have seen players in the lower level have better technique than Hernandez but they don't have the overall package what Hernandez offers. When I watch Hernandez his touch is average as is his passing but what he excels at is his pace movement finishing and knowing how to work a 18 yard box for the space he wants to find. So if you are measuring technique on passing and touch only then yes he does have average technique and you will find players at a lower level with better technique but if you are adding in the other attributes then thats another matter. The whole package should be the defining thing.

 

[Devil may care]

As long as he is content that he is unlikely to be a first choice starter the bulk of the time then he will remain a tremendous asset to the squad as he is a natural goal scorer and big match winner.

 

[Varun]

As long as he is content that he is unlikely to be a first choice starter the bulk of the time then he will remain a tremendous asset to the squad as he is a natural goal scorer and big match winner.

I dont agree. At a club like ours, its only the 4th striker that has to worry. The first 3 will get plenty of games. Yes, he'l not start most of the toughest games but he'd still come on in most and because of how different he is, even get plenty of starts.

 

[Platato]

Agreed, this has been a good example of a debate in which the losing side brought absolutely no evidence to the table to support his nonsense claims and thus got demolished completely resulting in a feeble play of the Opinion Card. Very interesting.

Right on cider. I find his responses strange. He's only stated his opinion once and then made another claim which he used the matchday thread (known for kneejerkness) to support his claim (even more strange).

I think Mojo is on the wum because every other thread he actually makes a case for his opinion.

 

[MrMojo]

Right on cider. I find his responses strange. He's only stated his opinion once and then made another claim which he used the matchday thread (known for kneejerkness) to support his claim (even more strange).

I think Mojo is on the wum because every other thread he actually makes a case for his opinion.

I used a couple of quotes from the match day thread(I said then they were just an example of others seeing these shortcomings), I brought up the Newcastle game which you said was poor of me to do because he had a bad game. So I can't use games he's played poorly in. I've given my opinion based on what I've seen for the last two and a half years.

I'm genuinely baffled as to what else I could use as evidence. As far as I'm aware there aren't stats for miscontrol, over hit passes etc.

One thing's for sure, I haven't spent two days on a wum, but it's all good, it's livened things up and stimulated a bit of debate.

 

[MrMojo]

Not sure who said this and who's arguing for or against but there are a lot of attributes in a player that is not equated to technique. Bravery, unselfishness and game intelligence being a few. I have played with players deemed to have poor technique and are actually the very important/better players in our team.
Personally I have seen players in the lower level have better technique than Hernandez but they don't have the overall package what Hernandez offers. When I watch Hernandez his touch is average as is his passing but what he excels at is his pace movement finishing and knowing how to work a 18 yard box for the space he wants to find. So if you are measuring technique on passing and touch only then yes he does have average technique and you will find players at a lower level with better technique but if you are adding in the other attributes then thats another matter. The whole package should be the defining thing.

Careful mate, they're all heading to mine with the pitchforks so I'd tread carefully if I was you.

One poster actually said 'You can't expect to get away with this.'

 

[I'm always right]

Careful mate, they're all heading to mine with the pitchforks so I'd tread carefully if I was you.

Playing this silly card again are we?

One poster actually said 'You can't expect to get away with this.'

Did he really? hmmmm.....

And don't pull out the 'it's all subjective' card either, please. If I claimed that Welbeck was better than Messi, I wouldn't get away with that excuse. Why should you?

 

[I'm always right]

I'm genuinely baffled as to what else I could use as evidence. As far as I'm aware there aren't stats for miscontrol, over hit passes etc.

You could confirm or deny the following:

The following players have better technique and build up than Hernandez:

Cisse
Adam le Fondre
Sessegnon
Noel Hunt
Pavel Pogrebnyak
Jamie Mackie
James McFadden
Connor Wickham
Fraizer Campbell
Carlton Cole
Jay Rodriguez
Rickie Lambert
Tadanari Lee
Simeon Jackson
Andy Carroll

Because if there were stats for stats for miscontrol, over hit passes etc, these feckers would be way higher up on the list. Only a complete fool would say that Hernandez technique and build up isn't on the same standard as these players, hell throw the bloody brain-dead Sturridge into that mix too.

My issue with you is that you surely must realise that this is true and that your "Premiership Standard" is not actually "Premiership Standard", you are simply talking about the standards you expect from the top 6 or so teams in the league. But... you are way too stubborn to accept this now and keep harping on about "Championship Level", well my guess is, you've never watched a Championship game in your life if you think that.