I think this whole pursuit is fascinating. I reckon we'll move on if it remains silly as we need to put a marker down. You watch, once we do a lot of the madness in the market here will reduce. For years we've been the club teams use to get the prices up.
Jarrad Branthwaite
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
I think this whole pursuit is fascinating. I reckon we'll move on if it remains silly as we need to put a marker down. You watch, once we do a lot of the madness in the market here will reduce. For years we've been the club teams use to get the prices up.
From what I seen of him last season I rate him and would say he has no weaknesses in his game and in my eyes it is a bonus that he is English.
I've posted his attacking stats here before, they are terrible.
I don't think City and Real Madrid are watching him because he is just a traditional brute CB. And you shouldn't underestimate the value of being a ridiculously physical CB who dominates in both ground duels and aerially. It is extremely valuable, and critical for us considering how poor we are in set-pieces, particularly defensively and of course you need to take into account how many goals we concede, so first and foremost, we need a defender that can actually defend and dominate opponents physically, and not another technical ball-playing defender like Rio Ferdinand. We have one in Lisandro Martinez, we don't necessarily need two to be a successful team. Forming an excellent partnership should be the priority.
His stats are obviously not as good as one would like, but there are several things that come into play here. He plays for Everton, and there is no link between the defenders and the midfielders. What do you expect a defender to do if he has no passing options? Dribble through attackers and progress the ball like that?
Who would your choice be for the CB, by the way? Remember that we have Lisandro Martinez who is a short defender himself, so playing with 2 centre backs who are fairly short is a recipe for disaster. Leny Yoro? An 18 year old in his first season playing in Ligue 1 who looks a bit shaky defensively, not good aerially, but good ball-playing abilities? Or Todibo who is also crap aerially?
I agree that Branthwaite isn't the most technically gifted defender, but we don't need two ball-playing centre backs to be able to build up from the back. Vidic wasn't known for his ball-playing abilities, we had Rio Ferdinand for that. Like I said, we need to form a partnership that works, not the two most aesthetically pleasing defenders to watch.
Honestly, that’s exactly the sort of build up play Maguire used to be involved in.
Agreed on the Todibo point, though he's not as strong in the air as you'd like for a long term partner to Martinez. Not weak by any means, but about average from what I've seen. Other than that I think he looks a brilliant option for the prices quoted.
I've not seen Yoro outside of highlights but don't think he's a realistic option. Too much smoke around the Madrid move.
There are however an abundance of very good CBs to choose from at the moment, so there's absolutely no need to go all in on this guy. If Everton won't negotiate - move on and wish them well with their PSR journey.
The most league appearances Martinez has ever made in a season is 27, I think "injury prone" is too harsh but he's not some reliable warrior like Bruno who will play through every niggle.
You need someone who can fill in and left sided CBs are kinda rare.
I can also find you some examples of Mctominay putting together beautiful passing moves. Says precisely nothing about the type of player he is. If Branthwaite was so technically good, he would be doing this regularly but he does not because he's not that type of player as the stats clearly show.
Just for comparison can you rate him compared to another Everton CB? Then we will know if one is significantly better or it's just the way he is instructed to play tactically at Everton.
You said his default is to boot it at every opportunity. That's clearly wrong.
Also, no, you're doing what people have been doing in this thread regularly and conflating not being able to do something and not being asked to do something. Branthwaite at PSV showed he is technically capable and was better on the passing and progressive front because he played in a more technically disciplined and demanding side. With Dyche, he isn't tasked with doing that, they're instructed to play percentage football where his progressive and technical qualities will not be on display as often, but again, that doesn't mean he's not capable.
If anything, I'm surprised more people aren't happy that he's shown he's capable of playing in two vastly different sides and styles of football, performing well in each. It's regularly peddled that some footballers are system players but Jarrad has performed well in different types of system and is comfortable in either.
Its not about his nationality. There have been English centrebacks over the years who have been technically excellent (Rio, Stones) and there have been non-English CBs over the years who have been brutes (Vidic for example). It about the stats and the eye test and in Branthwaite's case, both deliver the same message, Branthwaite is simply not technically great or even average.
Both those players were much more established than Brainthwaite is currently. Also, the hope with the new regime is that it won't be as stupid as the last one and ends up paying 80m+ for players worth 30m-40m.
You are right that he is still very raw, that is why this is still qualifies as a punt for us. Hence, the fee we pay should be reasonable, not near a world record fee for a defender.
How am I wrong when I provided you with clear statistics over a full calendar year's worth of games. You provide one example and extrapolate and claim i'm wrong. You want to willfully ignore numbers over a pretty large sample of games? Go ahead. I will not.
Blaming a full year's worth of statistics on coaching instructions is predictable but is a very flimsy excuse. You might see a drop off for a truly technical CB in a non-technical team from a good level of technical stats to maybe average or slightly above average but not to amongst the worst of ANY CBs in Europe's top 5 leagues.
Technical CBs play the same way no matter the team set up. It was clear for example that Stones was technically astute even at Everton. Its not nearly the same thing for Branthwaite.
When he played for PSV, in a non-Dyche setup, he was in the 73rd percentile for attempted passes and 81st percentile for completed passes. Progressive carries definitely doesn’t look like it’s his thing but that isn’t a deal breaker if he’d be playing beside Martinez.
Because I'm a believer in watching football aswell as using stats.
I'm also a believer in assessing not just one season and considering the multiple dynamics of players, teams and seasons. Branthwaite has played in a technically competent side with PSV and has been completely comfortable technically. He's utilised in a different system for Everton where his stats won't be great but on the occasion where he does play with the ball he's also shown he's technically comfortable.
Look at Lewis Dunk pre-Potter and De Zerbi, he barely ever ball played and his numbers weren't anything special. Last season he was then in the 90-99th percentiles for loads of stuff considering ball playing for a defender. He was averaging around 50 passes a game in 17-18 and his pass completion was at 77%. Last season it was 100 passes a game average and 90% completion. How your team sets up and plays football impacts massively.
I really think people overstate how hard it is to do stuff at times. In the right systems and dynamics players are capable of doing much more.
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And you don't think that might have anything to do with the fact that Everton don't generally play 20 passes back and forth in their own half ?
He's fine technically, you absolutely dont need to be a technical player to play CB at a big team and hes a decent passer. At PSV he averaged 58.2 passes per 90 mins and 87.2% pass accuracy
At Everton its less because Everton find progressing against premier league teams harder than PSV do in their league. For a 21 year old, and when he was there he was what 19, thats very good.
Edit - As for why Real Madrid arent interested? He isnt a free transfer. Madrid have signed most of their CBs recently because their contract ran out and they could get them for free. Even when thats not the case they historically cheap out on CBs. There is the occasional spend like Militao in 19/20... Thats all the way back when we signed Maguire though. Just like we havent signed another CB for £80 million since then, they havent signed another CB for even close to the £42.3 million for Militao. In fact they havent spent a penny on CBs since then in transfer fees.
So what are Madrid going to do, ask Everton to let him leave for free? No they just arent interested. Because its not their policy to spend on CBs. Any of them. Its like... If Saliba is such a good young CB why arent Madrid offering loads of money for him? Because they dont do that. End of
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If that is how you judge footballers then you’ll really hope we don’t sign Yoro either….
Branthwaite is not any worse on the ball than Varane. And yet Varane was able to form an excellent partnership with Licha.
Im certain most people have not watched Branthwaite play if they say he is not secure on the ball.
Im certain most people have not watched Branthwaite play if they say he is not secure on the ball.
It's not, it misses a lot of context but it's worth looking at. The eye test shows he's a good passer with time, not Vs the press. A better version of Maguire.
Lecturing an Everton fan who sees them every week
Varanes passing out from the back has been quite frustrating. His excellent partnership with Licha is becsuse he's a magnet for the ball in sniffing out crosses. I don't know whether Branthwaite is on the same level.
He’s not slow slow but isn’t the quickest off his heel, could just be a concentration thing for a young player.
Yep they’d rather ask Yoro to not sign a new contract and come to them as a free transfer next summer.
that business model allows them to spunk all their money on attacking players
Thanks... That sorts it out for me.
He’s an England international so he’s homegrown, Everton bought him from Carlisle at 17 for £1 million but Carlisle negotiated a 15% sell on fee.
He has been at Everton for more than 3 years so he would count as homegrown for the PL which ever team he plays for however if a £50m plus £10m in bonus was negotiated, then £7.5m plus £1.5m would find its way to Carlisle Football club if Branthwaite got all the bonus targets and Everton would receive £42.5m plus £8.5m would be paid to Everton.
This might be why they want £70m because they would receive less than £60m at £59.5m.
I don’t see this happening. Major discrepancy between what they want and we are (presumably willing to pay). 70 m pounds is just not realistic. We’ll walk away from this( I hope) if it comes down to it.
Genuine question, if he’s so good, why didn’t he make the England squad given our lack of talent in central defence
Genuine answer, because Gareth Southgate doesn't think he's good enough a player this month.
35million!
I love the new us!
Everton need to sell and we can look elsewhere. Don't go much higher and go elsewhere if they play the game.
He's not a worldy and we can't repeat the same mistakes.
I love the new us!
Everton need to sell and we can look elsewhere. Don't go much higher and go elsewhere if they play the game.
He's not a worldy and we can't repeat the same mistakes.
I love that bid. Absolutely fecking love it!
Of course he's not on the same level as Varane currently, the thing to comapre him to is 21 year old Varane
Wasn't 21 year old Varane absolutely brilliant? Trying to cast my mind back to when Fergie was obsessed with him.
He moved from Lens when he was 18, so at 21 he was brilliant.
Let's bid less next time just to really rile them up
Varane is one of the worst CB's in history to compare anyone to at young ages as he was an absolute prodigy.
It's basically settling the other player up for failure unless they're something godly and prodigious themselves.
I agree but the poster asked me to compare Varane at 21 to Branthwaite at 21.
Back to Branthwaite though - he's very good but I think he's still raw and has some holes in his game that wont make him Stones money. I guess £40m+add ons at absolute top ceiling for me.
I barely have an opinion on this kid, tbh. @lysglimt compared him to a young Pallister and that sounds like a CB I can get on board with, but the crazy thing with his guy is how utterly disparate the opinions on him are. Can't make head nor tails of him in that sense as it's like a tennis match.