What's the most important is to have a squad good enough to challange for the title next season and few more seasons. Some times age does not matter much than fixing the missing pieces.
Ivan Perisic
- Thread starter prtk0811
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What's the most important is to have a squad good enough to challange for the title next season and few more seasons. Some times age does not matter much than fixing the missing pieces.
I also said Perisic doesnt offer anything different to what we have. This whole he tracks back is so overrated. Our defense is not the problem. We had the 2nd best defense last season. So he can track back all he wants. If he cant give us the end product going forward then there is no use.
The point Im trying to make ever since we got linked with him is the fact that he isnt a missing piece. A missing piece is someone who adds something to our squad and our play by improving it not just adding depth to our squad.
He adds width depth counter attacking and Wingplay to the dynamics of play, which we lack in the squad with valencia at rb now and young 32 and injury prone, while also been not good attacking wise.
When you absorb the pressure, a direct counter attacking dynamics with width break the opposition defense in quick transition. We lack that in the squad since we sold zaha nani and play AV at rb.
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I actually like Lukaku and wouldn't mind him at United at all. It's just his price that bothers me.
About Perisic's goals and assists last season, let's give him some credits my friend even if we think he has not had such a sterling career. His last few seasons have been good times in his career especially the last season. He played as a winger in a weak team. He held his own pretty well and was like a bright spot in that team. He was very direct, usually posed a threat, ran at defences well, attacked with pace and with both feet and was strong in the air. Inter had a weak full back behind him so his willingness to track back and put in defensive shifts was really helpful for his team.
What counts most for me is that it seems Jose really wants him and from what I hear, Perisic seems to want to play for Jose.
The key is the price. If it is reasonable, it can prove to be a fine investment but if it is too high, we should move on.
Its not over rated at all, it adds the necessary balance in the philosophy. He would add the width and wingplay and something new when all our wingers are inside cutting and do not provide genuine width in attack. He would also give usthe option of playing inverted wing system for creating more space.
Who said about tracking back ?
He did offer something different. He provides width to the team which is completely absence in the current time except for Valencia and sometimes Rashford when playing on the left but his preferred position is the striker to complete his development. Actually that's the only reason why Jose played Marcus a lot on the left flank during the season, because he's the only option that can hug the line, provides width, beats his man and cross or create a chance. This type of winger is essential in Jose's plan and more importantly, ideal in the EPL. SAF had many of those wingers even if they're mediocre, like Valencia and Ashley Young.
All our other players except Rashford and Valencia are always drifting inside. Martial can't stay on the left flank all the time because he likes to cut inside and shot. When he's kept on the touchline he's contained easily by the back and disappears and that's why he didn't succeed in Jose's plan. Mikhi and Mata on playing on the RW, always leaves the right flank and drift inside to join the midfield leaving it to Valencia alone.
This results in overcrowding in the midfield which makes it easier for the opponent to park the bus and defend because you're always trying to penetrate from the center of the field with only Valencia an option on the flanks and his aerial crosses aren't even great.
Perisic is going to drift and stretch the game wide like an ideal out and out winger and provides aerial danger to our attack rather than being crowded in the midfield. This will give more stability and more variety to our attacking plan. He's not a big name but he'll be an excellent functional player in a team who cries to have any proper wingers and width. I think signing a player like B.Silva wasn't going to solve our problems. He would have rather complicated it because he drifts inside a lot, too, especially in a team whose LWs are not that strong on the attack.
If we can get a better out and out winger I have no problem, or bring 2 proper RB and LB like Carvajal and Marcello who attack like wings and we can play without wings at all. Either this or this or we're going to struggle again against any barked bus.
Hell, you drove me to rewrite all my thoughts about Perisic even though I wasn't willing to.
If its width you're worried about, then any winger would do. We dont need to spend 40m+ to get that. And our counter attacking was one of the few things that we did right last season. We have intelligent enough players in our system to do that. We dont need to buy Perisic to do that.
@el3mel @prtk0811 Well if Jose is SO worried about Martial cutting in, then stop using them there, move Martial and Rashford to #9 on a permanent basis, scratch the Morata deal and use that money to buy someone like Dembele.
This is just like signing Young all over again. He was good and thrived in a system which Aston Villa were using at that point, but when he moved here, lets face it he has been a waste except for the first two months. Sure when he plays on the wing he stretches the play with his pace and tracks back/works hard for the team but the end product just wasnt there.
This is just like signing Young all over again. He was good and thrived in a system which Aston Villa were using at that point, but when he moved here, lets face it he has been a waste except for the first two months. Sure when he plays on the wing he stretches the play with his pace and tracks back/works hard for the team but the end product just wasnt there.
So instead of solving our problems we're creating another one, too. We can't enter a season with such an unproven attack like this. 2 young inconsistent strikers leading the line will lead you to nothing higher than 4th position. SAF always got 3-4 good to great strikers to rotate between them through the season. We were never short of strikers but you want us to enter a season depending on 2 young inconsistent strikers waiting for them to flourish ?
Both Morata and Perisic will make our attack much more stable and varied than what it was last season. Morata is a good finisher, can hold up the ball to make his teammates enter the game like Zlatan, but can also move and dribble a lot and has nice pace in him. Perisic is going to solve the width issues and giving us extra options on the wing rather than crowding the midfield with all our attacking players.
Dembele is a great player and no brainer I'll take him over Perisic but he costs 85-90m. We want to add a striker badly which is also going to cost us +70m at least. We can't combine both sadly, and entering the next season without adding a good striker to the team will be a suicide.
I understand the point you made about Morata in the next para but technically Morata falls under this same category. So you're happy to spend 70m+ to give Morata a chance but not so happy to give that same chance to Martial/Rashford? And when SAF we were playing a completely different system until the very end when he has 2 strikers starting every game so it made sense to have 2 more to rotate but not now.
Morata is older than both, has more experience in playing for 2 top clubs winning trophies and has great experience in CL. I'll prefer him than both currently imo.
But Morata was given the chance at Madrid/Juve at basically the same age Martial is. He only got that experience cause teams trusted him. And I trust Martial either at #9 or on the wing. He did well as a striker leading the line his first season.
I have no problem with Martial and hope he proves himself next season because it'll benefit the team overall but as you know, we can't throw all our eggs in a single basket. We can't base all our hopes next season on Rashford and Martial to flourish. Better to add another good striker with them.
I would be worried forking out nearly 100 million on matic and perisic who will have one year in their 20's, that kind of money we got to expect more mileage. Has for stable, we don't want stable, we want upgrades that is the whole point in game changers in our team, not only challenging but winning these trophy's, and I don't see how perisic and matic are going to improve our anchor man position and our wing position. This is why we need a director of football to keep a watch on Jose's short term thinking, and the club seem to want to be carried like another dynasty the way fergie done it when we want strong squads when ever managers leave. Yes we want to be successful, but we cannot expect to be spending nearly 100 million on 2 players that are 28 going on 29, that is just madness.
I completely missed this post. I was debating three people at once there.Who said about tracking back ?
He did offer something different. He provides width to the team which is completely absence in the current time except for Valencia and sometimes Rashford when playing on the left but his preferred position is the striker to complete his development. Actually that's the only reason why Jose played Marcus a lot on the left flank during the season, because he's the only option that can hug the line, provides width, beats his man and cross or create a chance. This type of winger is essential in Jose's plan and more importantly, ideal in the EPL. SAF had many of those wingers even if they're mediocre, like Valencia and Ashley Young.
All our other players except Rashford and Valencia are always drifting inside. Martial can't stay on the left flank all the time because he likes to cut inside and shot. When he's kept on the touchline he's contained easily by the back and disappears and that's why he didn't succeed in Jose's plan. Mikhi and Mata on playing on the RW, always leaves the right flank and drift inside to join the midfield leaving it to Valencia alone.
This results in overcrowding in the midfield which makes it easier for the opponent to park the bus and defend because you're always trying to penetrate from the center of the field with only Valencia an option on the flanks and his aerial crosses aren't even great.
Perisic is going to drift and stretch the game wide like an ideal out and out winger and provides aerial danger to our attack rather than being crowded in the midfield. This will give more stability and more variety to our attacking plan. He's not a big name but he'll be an excellent functional player in a team who cries to have any proper wingers and width. I think signing a player like B.Silva wasn't going to solve our problems. He would have rather complicated it because he drifts inside a lot, too, especially in a team whose LWs are not that strong on the attack.
If we can get a better out and out winger I have no problem, or bring 2 proper RB and LB like Carvajal and Marcello who attack like wings and we can play without wings at all. Either this or this or we're going to struggle again against any barked bus.
Hell, you drove me to rewrite all my thoughts about Perisic even though I wasn't willing to.
But yeah all fair points I see your thinking now.Winning the EPL isn't done by collecting 11 superstars in the team really. It's about creating a stable, functional winning machine and that's what SAF was excellent at either with having superstars or not he was winning because his team was functional and stable winning machine. Chelsea's team last season has only 3 superstars ( Hazard, Costa and Kante ) but the team was very balanced and functional that became a winning machine grinding results successfully, even though their overall squad isn't really any better than the City one, for example.
DOF will just collide with the manager's opinion and problems will happen and a lot, especially Jose. We're a club in which the manager's word is everything. I'm happy with this and I hope it remains so that the manager is having full control on the team and have full responsibility for everything. People are talking about DOF as if it's a guaranteed way to the top, which I don't understand really.
I completely missed this post. I was debating three people at once there.
Fair to you.
I don't rate Morata that high & agree the fee thrown out by the papers is ridiculous, but last season he has shown good consistency with limited gametime he was afforded. He is big game player too. Given chance is different than stubbornly trying thing that doesn't work at all. Here again is Martial & especially Rashford lack of hold up play. Morata offer different quality for the team. IMO, I see Morata as Drogba type of forward: not consistently scoring that many over the course of his career, but a big game player & score when it matters most. Shame Griezmann transfer collapsed.
How do you know they only one or couple years left. If they're good professional & have a good brain, they can prolong their career. Scholes & Carrick's actual peak is in early 30s. I argue the same for Zlatan. His physicality may peak early, but his understanding of the game is in his early 30s.
Young players don't just guarantee more mileage. Noone can predict future. Some off pitch can influence a player & he would get off track. There are countless of example of young players with high ceiling but never come close to fulfill that.
Let's not venture to Mourinho's short term argument here. If the rumor is to believe we're after Matic, Morata, Perisic after signing Lindelof. That's perfect balance with 2 young players & 2 immediate veteran players. Last summer, similar Pogba & Bailly vs Micky & Zlatan. Last but not least, until the fee is confirmed, it's too early to discuss about expensiveness. Journalists were doing all the guesswork for Mickhi who at one time said to be in 40m range. We ended up signing him between 25 & 30m range. Let's not start with Pogba
Martial did well in hold up play in his first season. Last season he wasnt employed as a striker so no chance to see if his hold up play improved from year 1. As with Rashford, I agree he needs to get better but that will come with age and the more he bulks up.
I never said superstars but we lacking that kind of quality, and if you buy the right attacking players you will win trophy's, look at the payoff at real madrid the last few years in what they have signed. You just answered your own question, hazard and costa, world class attacking players, don't think a perisic comes into that. And there must be balance, too many horseman like players you lose the ability to hurt sides, have to many flair players there is not enough backbone. We have enough hard workman like players, we lacking players who can hurt teams which we seem to have lost the last few years. herrera, pogba, fellaini, just a few examples who cover the ground we need the players who can really put teams to the sword, we need to solve our goalscoring problems not add more workhorse players. We have the grit and the strength, we lacking players who can go into the final third and hurt sides esp from the middle and out wide, and its why we did not score enough goals. Now if martial and mkhi go a few levels up, problem is half way solved. But to spend that kind of money on 2 players who are ok not exactly yeah, that's 100 million well spent. The best sides in europe are offensive sides, and we not at that level and if we still playing this kind of football, Mourinho I don't think will win a PL title with these tactics
I think a DOF is maybe needed, think I be very uncomfortable spending that kind of money on a couple of players who are not that much better than what is already at the club, that alone is not smart spending. Now Pogba is the kind of player that is an upgrade, and that is what we need out wide, in the CM and upfront upgrades over carrick etc
Scholes was special and did prove PPL wrong after eye problems in 2006, carrick was a player that many learnt you need that kind of player, but I just don't see matic being that carrick kind of player. Zlaten came on a free transfer, perisic like I say is not an upgrade on what we got, and that is the problem spending that kind of money. When we had problems scoring goals this is a problem, we starting horde to many young's, fellaini's, lingards of this world, players who do jobs, not players who can win us a match, especially losing zlaten we need an impact player to replace that personality. Like I say we were having problems scoring goals, don't know how signing perisic all of a sudden solves that problem unless martial, mkhi etc totally go a few levels ahead on where they currently at
What happened under LVG is since the forward lack aerial ability, Fellaini was employed to help. Mourinho did that too, but Fellaini for most of the time help with the defense especially when Smalling was out or Blind played CB. Fellaini was more CM under than LVG.
LVG requires his forward to hold up differently. Rashford didn't look out of play under LVG's style too. With LVG the forward just need to protect the ball to continue recycling possession. Then forward then reposition & retry this until a chance is created. Despite there are alot of similarities in what Mourinho & LVG agree in CF role, Mourinho demand more from his CF: His forward should always a focal point of the attack. His forward need to be able to work independently, & stay relevant inside the opposition's box. LVG prefer wing forwards so his CF. To put it simple: Mourinho would prefer Morata vs Benzema while LVG would prefer Benzema over Morata. Both ain't static box forward, & can operate in wide area if needed. The key as I said in another thread is Benzema tends to make more sacrificing run to drag defender away create space for wing forward to drift in & score (benefit Ronaldo). Morata when in position, he wants to stay there, instead of making bed for another guy.
Martial's off ball movement ain't great so he's not Benzema, but his forward type is more Benzema than Morata.
I don't think we use the counter attacking enough or use it enough, and I don't think we make the pitch bigger enough. I don't know if its the lack of tempo, the lack of speed in really putting sides to the sword, or the lack of goals from our midfield, but something is not quiet right in how we are set up. I think we are totally lost when we go a goal behind, and that is a sign the side is set up not to lose, and there is no real plan B when we go a goal behind. I do sense its Mourinho's over obsession in defense, then attack later, or just abandoning the idea of offense and making sure its tight at the back. But if he wants to win a title at united, he's got to see his offensive players do more in the final third, not just do more backtracking. Perisic is a strange one, where his stats are much of the same from our current wide players, slightly better but we not chasing someone who will be, yes he is an upgrade on our current players, but to replace the personality and presence of zlaten we got to have a signing that's says, yes that is a guy who can win us the matches. Morata and perisic I am not convinced can replace what zlaten brought to the team, and goals is a big problem facing this squad unless Mourinho gets more out of the current players which he has got to.
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We can't be acquire both? Ed will tell anyone who listens that we are the richest club in the world. If we ever want to get back to the level we used to be at we better be prepared to spend big.
Madrid spent a ton of money getting their glactico project off the ground and while it took time look at them now.
We stand a much better chance of winning the league and champs league with players of Dembeles quality.... Not Perisic.
Like most of our transfer links this summer I thought this was a done deal.
Really hope we get it done as I think he'd be very good for us.
Really hope we get it done as I think he'd be very good for us.
So Di marzio is reporting that inter have raised the money and don't HAVE to sell perisic.
So we either pay 50m euros or move on.
So we either pay 50m euros or move on.
No, Douglas Costa seems like he has attitude issues, I can't name someone I'd personally prefer but I'd hope the club has targets in mind.
He's not better than any of our attackers bar maybe Lingard, this would be a really embarrassing signing.
If we can't bring in either the top quality players, or young players with great potential, then we might as well stick with what we have. I'm tired of buying average players for huge sums.
If we can't bring in either the top quality players, or young players with great potential, then we might as well stick with what we have. I'm tired of buying average players for huge sums.
So tomorrow is Perisic day.
Apparently Inter managed to raise the funds to meet FFP without having to sell Perisic. Think it's time to move on, if his price was too high before it'll be much higher now that Inter don't need to sell.
Thing is your point is very general & not going into any detail. I'll go into those for you:
What happened with Scholes & what change in his early 30s that helped him proved everybody wrong? SAF finally accepted that outscoring opposition is not always work. Improving defense is the key & starting with midfield. Mourinho talked about Makelele role that English team neglected: sealing the defense, provide an extra option to release pressure from the back. Scholes as B2B need to offer both ends of the pitch. He's not that physically gifted. Not great at timing his tackle... SAF decided Scholes should be more focus on controlling the game, being more a specialist to get the best out of his best attributes. It worked.
As I said nobody can predict future. Matic's style is different than Carrick, yes, but the whole idea is all down to the player who offer what the team need. Different teams require different need. One can say Matic wouldn't do well in his 30s, but how so? Last season Chelsea best form (defensive stability) lies with Matic in good form. When Conte decided to mix thing up, then Chelsea defensive's stability also suffered & that's when Kante was in good form. He's not better than Kante, but his role is vital.
Perisic as pointed out offer a "different" quality that we lack. If we're to go into detail about different categories of wide attacker, Perisic would be pretty high up the ranking in out out winger class in today climate. We lack goals so we just adding more goal scorers right? Why Argentina NT of this generation with that many quality proven goal scorers, often being a team who depend on their defense instead & only beat the opposition with small margin? Building the team is not just about adding playing. It takes players compatibility, chemistry into the equation too. Balance is the key word. As I pointed out few page back & @el3mel pretty much replay the whole thing: Perisic offers proper winger work. He will not solely solve our problem, but he's an answer to one of our problem without making 2 or 3 signings/ change the system to fix this problem.
Thing is player can have a say where he wants to go. We can throw money at Dortmund, but the player doesn't want to come, it doesn't matter. Bunches of clubs, us included in for Dembele last summer & he decided to go to Dortmund. People are gullible if they believe all thing what the papers wrote. Pep was not even in Manchester & suddenly he had dinner with Dembele. Countless of Barcelona, Madrid & City linked with Pogba couple years ago. In the end we I am not saying there is not smoke in this Dembele's rumor, but there is also a huge possibility journalists are making stuff up after Tuchel's departure.
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Yeah, I assume we were only interested cos Ed thought he could be clever and get him on the cheap. Now that has failed, might as well go for better quality if we're gonna have to pay top dollar anyway.
Shit news. Mourinho's gonna be pissed.
Mahrez would do
Inter raised €30m to avoid FFP restrictions (Inter sold Di Marco, Gravillon, Caprari, Equelfi and Miangue)
How is he a player we lack? again he's not better than what we already got, and that's the problem. But to stupidly throw money at a player who runs up and down the line who is 28 going on 29 when speed is going to wane very quickly, when again teams will figure that out. Like I say we missing what I call an all round wide player, for the price on offer thankfully he won't be coming. We lacking balance because we don't seem to play with tempo or speed, its very predictable, and if we predictable perisic is not going to transfer how we hurt sides, for 44 million I expect an improvement, 2 years time he is 30 going on 31, that is pretty wreckless. I would argue Mourinho's tactics more than the players going forward is why we seem to be lacking idea's, maybe its both. Conte can mix things up because he has certain tools that we need, again its not winger work we need, its quality in the final third we need. Signing a player like perisic for the money, god knows his wages is very careless spending and he could be stuck on our roster like rooney is now. The money we spent on pogba we got a player maybe years of service, and that is an investment. 44 million for a player, how many years we getting? I don't see that has wise spending, and come next season we most likely be looking at that same position because a perisic did not really solve what we were missing. Like I say, is Mourinho playing to kill? or more the same rubbish we saw in the PL? I would be very worried if we putting all our eggs in one basket on a player who is more of the same. I would be very worried to spend this kind of money, and needing to do it again next season in the same position
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Most difficult transfer window in a long time.
Easiest decision we've ever had to make. Move on.
Yep move on, can guarantee you we be after another winger next summer because this signing just was not quiet good enough. If we want to solve the winger problem, we got to look better than this. Very relieved inter have raised the money, hopefully we dodged the bullet
If Mourinho thinks the club should spend that amount of money in this kind of player, he really does not get it or see the bigger picture. 45 million for a player turning 30 before 2019, really mourinho? imagine what other clubs will ask for players when they see this price
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