Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[milemuncher777]

Gunshots fired at Al Jazeera bureau in Gaza

Shots fired into Al Jazeera's office in Gaza, a day after Israeli FM said Israel will work to close down the network.



Gunshots have been fired into Al Jazeera’s bureau in the Gaza Strip amid an intensified bombardment campaign on the Palestinian enclave.

The shots caused panic among the civilians living in the same building but no casualties have been reported in the incident on Tuesday morning.

"Two very precise shots were fired straight into our building", Al Jazeera’s Stefanie Dekker, reporting from the bureau in Gaza said.

"We are high up in the building so we had a very strong vantage point over the area. But we have evacuated."

The bureau is situated in a residential area of Gaza City.

"Our office building also has many residential apartments. People [are] leaving, panicked. The AP [news agency] also has office there and [has] evacuated."

'Incitement' accusations

The attack came a day after Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman was quoted by local media as saying his country will work to close down Al Jazeera in Israel.

Al Jazeera "has abandoned even the perception of being a reliable news organisation and broadcasts from Gaza and to the world anti-Israel incitement, lies, and encouragement to the terrorists," Lieberman said.

Al Jazeera has been covering the Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip that started on July 8.

The death toll in Israel’s 14-day assault climbed to more than 607 Palestinians, including dozens of women and children. More than 3,700 others have been injured.

On the Israeli side, 27 troops and two civilians have been killed.

On Tuesday, the Israeli army said one of its soldiers was missing in Gaza.

 

[Livvie]

Israel has the right to fight terrorism. It doesn't have the right to persecute a whole nation.

It's like the UK bombing Ireland to defeat the IRA...that wouldn't have been tolerated.

 

[Fearless]

Israel has the right to fight terrorism. It doesn't have the right to persecute a whole nation.

It's like the UK bombing Ireland to defeat the IRA...that wouldn't have been tolerated.

If thousands of IRA rockets had rained down on the UK, everyday, for ten years, then things might have been different.

Just a guess, mind.

 

[bleedred]

Here we go again. I'll list my reply in numbered points to make it easier for you to comprehend, I'm nice like that.

1) Last time I checked Gaza wasn't a country.

2) Hamas also sticks 2 fingers up to the UN on a regular basis by violating human rights laws as well.

3) Firing deadly rockets at a civilian populace is also a war crime. I'm waiting for you to then reply with "Oh but the rockets don't kill anybody", which is a flawed argument in itself. I think you should go to Sderot when the sirens wail, sit on a deck chair then tell me if they are deadly.

If you want to bring Israel to "Justice" the same applies for Hamas, end of.

Show any poster who absolved Hamas from any blame?.

You agree that Hamas and Israel should be treated the same way, yet one of them is labelled as terrorist organisation and the other just a "nation defending its rights".

As far as your 2nd point, is it right for anyone to violate Human rights just because others are doing it??..

 

[thegregster]

If thousands of IRA rockets had rained down on the UK, everyday, for ten years, then things might have been different.

Just a guess, mind.

The IRA were always in a much stronger position than Hamas. Ability to strike at economic targets such as Canary Wharf and London City centre was crucial to forcing the British government into talks.

If Hamas was able to target such things in Israel they wouldn't be getting bombed right now. They would all be sitting around a table and talking.

 

[Cereal Killer]

The IRA were always in a much stronger position than Hamas. Ability to strike at economic targets such as Canary Wharf and London City centre was crucial to forcing the British government into talks.

If Hamas was able to target such things in Israel they wouldn't be getting bombed right now. They would all be sitting around a table and talking.

I think they can target most areas in Israel actually. Only difference is that almost none of those rockets will touch the ground.

 

[bleedred]

If thousands of IRA rockets had rained down on the UK, everyday, for ten years, then things might have been different.

Just a guess, mind.

I assume, they would not have let it go on for 10 years. You have to wonder why its going on for such a long time.

I am not condoning the rockets being fired, but do you not think they are a result of the oppression by the Israelis. People keep saying that Hamas wants Israel destroyed, but so did IRA. They said they will keep fighting till Ireland was united and look at them now.

And like it has been previously mentioned millions of times in this thread, even during the so called peaceful times, when Hamas isn't firing rockets, Palestinians are treated like shit and kept in an open air prison. So Hamas firing rockets is just an excuse for Israel to go on the offensive and destroy more of Gaza.

I asked this question yesterday and don't think I got a response. If Israel indeed cared about Palestinians, should they not evacuate the civilians into some refugee camps across the border, rather than giving them a 53 second alarm. I may be naive, is that too much to ask for. Where are the Gazans supposed to flee??.. Into the sea??

 

[thegregster]

I think they can target most areas in Israel actually. Only difference is that almost none of those rockets will touch the ground.

They cant target such things successfully. If they could Israel would be forced to find a permanent settlement.

Sounds terrible but its true that the better you are a terrorism the better your chances of getting something.

 

[holyland red]

The IRA were always in a much stronger position than Hamas. Ability to strike at economic targets such as Canary Wharf and London City centre was crucial to forcing the British government into talks.

If Hamas was able to target such things in Israel they wouldn't be getting bombed right now. They would all be sitting around a table and talking.

What exactly were IRA territorial demands regarding mainland UK?

 

[Fearless]

I assume, they would not have let it go on for 10 years. You have to wonder why its going on for such a long time.

I am not condoning the rockets being fired, but do you not think they are a result of the oppression by the Israelis. People keep saying that Hamas wants Israel destroyed, but so did IRA. They said they will keep fighting till Ireland was united and look at them now.

And like it has been previously mentioned millions of times in this thread, even during the so called peaceful times, when Hamas isn't firing rockets, Palestinians are treated like shit and kept in an open air prison. So Hamas firing rockets is just an excuse for Israel to go on the offensive and destroy more of Gaza.

I asked this question yesterday and don't think I got a response. If Israel indeed cared about Palestinians, should they not evacuate the civilians into some refugee camps across the border, rather than giving them a 53 second alarm. I may be naive, is that too much to ask for. Where are the Gazans supposed to flee??.. Into the sea??

Do you recall why the palestine Arabs are in Gaza??

 

[holyland red]

I asked this question yesterday and don't think I got a response. If Israel indeed cared about Palestinians, should they not evacuate the civilians into some refugee camps across the border, rather than giving them a 53 second alarm. I may be naive, is that too much to ask for. Where are the Gazans supposed to flee??.. Into the sea??

They wouldn't cross the border even if they were offered to do so. Regardless, what would Israel have done with them if they did cross the border and then refused to go back? What would be your opinion if Israel forced them to return to Gaza in that scenario?

 

[holyland red]

They cant target such things successfully. If they could Israel would be forced to find a permanent settlement.

Sounds terrible but its true that the better you are a terrorism the better your chances of getting something.

And what would that be in your opinion?

 

[adexkola]

Yeah, I'm not understanding the comparisons between the IRA and Hamas. Someone please clarify for me.

I don't think any side in this issue (Israel or Gaza) can claim the moral upper right hand, and there are dozens of years of complicated history, so I'll skip all that and ask; what would be a reasonable response by Israel to missile strikes from Gaza, a dense urban environment where the combatants use civilians as effective human shields?

 

[thegregster]

And what would that be in your opinion?

A Palestinian state. Its already on the way. The Oslo Accords and the UN giving it Observer status were the first steps on a pretty long road. If Israel continues to veto it then it becomes a one state solution. Its really up to Israel as they are easily able to control Hamas.

What exactly were IRA territorial demands regarding mainland UK?

Nothing. But the point stands that when the IRA started hitting economic targets the British government were in a much weaker position.

 

[holyland red]

Now where did we hear about Israel targetting hospitals and ambulances? See the Red Crescent ambulance there carrying out another humanitarian mission.

 

[holyland red]

A Palestinian state. Its already on the way. The Oslo Accords and the UN giving it Observer status were the first steps on a pretty long road. If Israel continue to veto it then it becomes a one state solution.

An overwhelming majority among Israelis would support a two-state solution if the Arabs agreed to peaceful co-existense with a neighbouring Jewish state.

Nothing. But the point stands that when the IRA started hitting economic targets the British government were in a much weaker position.

No, it doesn't. Hamas is not shy letting everyone know what its aim is. Is it or is it not negotiable as far as Israel is concerned?

 

[Infra-red]

Saw this elsewhere recently... thought it was rather good:

 

[Kaos]

Yeah, I'm not understanding the comparisons between the IRA and Hamas. Someone please clarify for me.

I don't think any side in this issue (Israel or Gaza) can claim the moral upper right hand, and there are dozens of years of complicated history, so I'll skip all that and ask; what would be a reasonable response by Israel to missile strikes from Gaza, a dense urban environment where the combatants use civilians as effective human shields?

Trouble with that stance is that you're assuming the conflict started with Hamas firing rockets.

 

[Snowjoe]

Yeah, I'm not understanding the comparisons between the IRA and Hamas. Someone please clarify for me.

I don't think any side in this issue (Israel or Gaza) can claim the moral upper right hand, and there are dozens of years of complicated history, so I'll skip all that and ask; what would be a reasonable response by Israel to missile strikes from Gaza, a dense urban environment where the combatants use civilians as effective human shields?

This of course is the big issue. I'm not exactly sure what Israel are meant to do.

Blogs like this give a glimpse into life in Israel http://blogs.reuters.com/great-deba...you-can-call-it-that-under-israels-iron-dome/

I'd be interested to hear from any resident Israelis to see how on point that blog post is. But if it is on point, what are Israels realistic courses of action?

 

[adexkola]

Trouble with that stance is that you're assuming the conflict started with Hamas firing rockets.

Fair enough, and yes, that was my assumption. What is the cause of the current fracas (apart from the huge clusterfeck that is Israeli-Palestinian relations going back to 1967)? What set off the current trouble? There is a lot of information out there and it's a pain sifting through sensationalized article after article.

 

[holyland red]

This of course is the big issue. I'm not exactly sure what Israel are meant to do.

Blogs like this give a glimpse into life in Israel http://blogs.reuters.com/great-deba...you-can-call-it-that-under-israels-iron-dome/

I'd be interested to hear from any resident Israelis to see how on point that blog post is. But if it is on point, what are Israels realistic courses of action?

I live in Haifa, so feel safer in this recent round of violence. Just moved to a newer apartment, which has the MAMAD mentioned in the blog, so feel safer in that respect too. Can't imagine what it's like down south, where people have 15 seconds to seek shelters from rockets, and get no warning siren at all when under a barrage of mortar fire.

Israel has so far opted for the easy escape route of retaliating and then reaching a ceasefire that lasts a couple of years. Lasts in the respect that Southern towns are fired at sporadically by "non-Hamas extremeists". Repeating this is one option for our government, whereas another would be conquering the GS, getting rid of Hamas. The latter would obviously come at a heavy price at both ends. There are various "plans" floating like economic incentives in return for demilitarization of the GS, but hell will freeze over before Hamas accepts those.

 

[holyland red]

Fair enough, and yes, that was my assumption. What is the cause of the current fracas (apart from the huge clusterfeck that is Israeli-Palestinian relations going back to 1967)? What set off the current trouble? There is a lot of information out there and it's a pain sifting through sensationalized article after article.

Dates back to 1967?

 

[Dante]

Fair enough, and yes, that was my assumption. What is the cause of the current fracas (apart from the huge clusterfeck that is Israeli-Palestinian relations going back to 1967)? What set off the current trouble? There is a lot of information out there and it's a pain sifting through sensationalized article after article.

The 3 Israeli lads getting murdered by a Palestinian faction.

Funnily enough, said faction appears to have been an enemy of Hamas. The problem was that Hamas refused to condemn the act, so Israel decided to bomb the feck out of them.

 

[barros]

In regards to that video, taken from Liveleak.

Why I Believe 'Israeli Sniper Killing Wounded Civilian' Is a Fraud

Let me preface this by saying I am not Israeli, a Zionist , or even Jewish. I just believe in the truth. I don't think either side is without blame, but I think it is all about intentions. For one side, civilian casualties are an unfortunate, unintentional consequence. For the other, civilian casualties are the goal. View the video and draw your own conclusions based on what you see, not what you want to see.

Earlier today, Liveleak featured a video entitled 'Israeli sniper killing wounded civilian'.

The video states 'Editing by the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)'. Presumably the workers in the yellow vests are from that organization. From the ISM's own website:

About ISM
Who We Are
The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) is a Palestinian-led movement committed to
resisting the long-entrenched and systematic oppression and dispossession of the
Palestinian population, using non-violent, direct-action methods and principles. Founded in
August 2001, ISM aims to support and strengthen the Palestinian popular resistance by being
immediately alongside Palestinians in olive groves, on school runs, at demonstrations, within
villages being attacked, by houses being demolished or where Palestinians are subject to
consistent harassment or attacks from soldiers and settlers as well as numerous other
situations.

My video is slowed down between 00:00 and 01:25 and also between 01:34 and 01:58. The video in its entirety corresponds to the segment between 02:16 and 03:07 of the original. I did not edit anything in or out. I only slowed the 2 parts noted above in order to more clearly see what was happening or supposedly happening. These segments cover all 3 of the alleged sniper shots.

Here is why I believe it is completely fabricated and fake...not to mention poorly acted. The times noted correspond to the original video.

Around 02:20 - You can see the distance between the green shirt and his group and the workers wearing the yellow vests. Pretty far away.

02:24 - Green shirt is standing right in front of the cameraman. Close enough they could touch each other. Shot is heard on camera or dubbed in.

02:25 - Green shirt is now laying on the ground a fair distance from the cameraman. Let's say approximately 15 feet. Inexplicably, they are now separated by twisted metal and concrete. There is no blood or visible gun shot wound. Just one round from a sniper rifle though. Hey, maybe it's a fluke.

02:30 - Miracle of miracles. We now see they are incredibly close to the aid workers. Which is convenient if you are trying to recite dialogue. At the distance they were when the first shot rang out, it would be tough to pick up what the workers might say on the camera's microphone. This makes it more compelling and believable. It's tough to create heart-wrenching theater when you're shouting at each other from long distances.

02:37 - Second alleged shot. Again, there is still zero blood or visible gun shot wounds. It's starting to look a little suspicious, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. These people are nothing if not honest and trustworthy.

02:54 - It's an early Christmas miracle. 3rd hit. The 'kill shot'. Three shots to the body with no impact seen on camera, no visible gunshot wounds, and not even a speck of blood.

If you can view this video, given the evidence that is clear and obvious on the video, and still believe he was shot by a sniper, then that's certainly your right. I think it's a fake and not even a good one.

That video was fake I used a Galil rifle when I was in service and with a caliber of 5.56 mm wouldn't be any good to use as a sniper weapon. A sniper rifle uses high caliber and we would see the impact and the first shot would be a killer shot.

 

[Kaos]

Fair enough, and yes, that was my assumption. What is the cause of the current fracas (apart from the huge clusterfeck that is Israeli-Palestinian relations going back to 1967)? What set off the current trouble? There is a lot of information out there and it's a pain sifting through sensationalized article after article.

You'd have to go even further back than 1967 too.

As for what's triggered this current clusterfeck, well different people will tell you different things. Some will say it was started by the murder of three Israeli teenagers in the west bank, others will say the murder of a Palestinian child not long before then was the cause, others have started the clock at Hamas lobbing a round of rockets.

 

[Eboue]

This of course is the big issue. I'm not exactly sure what Israel are meant to do.

Blogs like this give a glimpse into life in Israel http://blogs.reuters.com/great-deba...you-can-call-it-that-under-israels-iron-dome/

I'd be interested to hear from any resident Israelis to see how on point that blog post is. But if it is on point, what are Israels realistic courses of action?

The headline "
Life — if you can call it that"



You can call it that! Because they are alive, unlike several hundred on the other side of the conflict.

 

[KingCantona87]

Hamas have been firing rockets more or less since the withdrawal in 2005.

 

[holyland red]

The 3 Israeli lads getting murdered by a Palestinian faction.

Funnily enough, said faction appears to have been an enemy of Hamas. The problem was that Hamas refused to condemn the act, so Israel decided to bomb the feck out of them.

Were they kidnapped and murdered at all? We read earlier claims here that the story was staged to justify the crackdown on Hamas in the WB. What the faction that appears to have carried out the 3 murders then, in the event they occured at all?

And how long after the alleged murder did Israel start bombing in Gaza? Was there any prior rocket fire from Gaza to Israel?

 

[holyland red]

You'd have to go even further back than 1967 too.

As for what's triggered this current clusterfeck, well different people will tell you different things. Some will say it was started by the murder of three Israeli teenagers in the west bank, others will say the murder of a Palestinian child not long before then was the cause, others have started the clock at Hamas lobbing a round of rockets.

Who would say that, and why?

 

[KingCantona87]

The headline "
Life — if you can call it that"



You can call it that! Because they are alive, unlike several hundred on the other side of the conflict.

Question for you, why do you and other critics of Israel insist on comparing body counts and then insisting that because thankfully, hamas rockets haven't been successful this somehow gives them impunity to fire them?

 

[Kaos]

Who would say that, and why?

There were suggestions that the murder of those three boys was a revenge attack for the Palestinian teenagers being shot dead a month earlier in the WB.

 

[holyland red]

The headline "
Life — if you can call it that"



You can call it that! Because they are alive, unlike several hundred on the other side of the conflict.

I wish the rest of them another pop at democratic elections, when they can vote for an alternative leadership which will serve them better.

 

[holyland red]

There were suggestions that the murder of those three boys was a revenge attack for the Palestinian teenagers being shot dead a month earlier in the WB.

But there always are. I mean it's hardly an isolated event only that this time the kidnappers succeeded in carrying out their plan. Who's the boy you're mentioning btw? Which incident was that?

 

[Kaos]

This of course is the big issue. I'm not exactly sure what Israel are meant to do.

Blogs like this give a glimpse into life in Israel http://blogs.reuters.com/great-deba...you-can-call-it-that-under-israels-iron-dome/

I'd be interested to hear from any resident Israelis to see how on point that blog post is. But if it is on point, what are Israels realistic courses of action?

Perhaps that blog might wish to offer a glimpse of a life into the Palestinian territories.

I'm sure the Palestinians would swap the degrading checkpoints, settlement leeching and blockade/bombing of Gaza for a house in sunny Haifa if their biggest threats were for the ocassional rockets that kill less people than peanut allergies.

 

[Lowkey]

Question for you, why do you and other critics of Israel insist on comparing body counts and then insisting that because thankfully, hamas rockets haven't been successful this somehow gives them impunity to fire them?

Why dont you answer that question yourself. Imagine if you were Palestine, and they were Israel. Palestine had all the rockets, technology, equipment and were oppressing/occupying you. What would you do? Would you try and fight back? I think its pretty self explanatory. It takes a little bit of common sense to work this all out people.

 

[Kaos]

But there always are. I mean it's hardly an isolated event only that this time the kidnappers succeeded in carrying out their plan. Who's the boy you're mentioning btw? Which incident was that?

Its not an isolated incident on either side tbh, but that's the point I was alluding to initially.

Boys were Nadim Nawara and Mohammad Salameh.

 

[holyland red]

Its not an isolated incident on either side tbh, but that's the point I was alluding to initially.

Boys were Nadim Nawara and Mohammad Salameh.

So it's the two boys in Beitunya? The incident where the IDF denied the use of live ammunition?

 

[Snowjoe]

Perhaps that blog might wish to offer a glimpse of a life into the Palestinian territories.

I'm sure the Palestinians would swap the degrading checkpoints, settlement leeching and blockade/bombing of Gaza for a house in sunny Haifa if their biggest threats were for the ocassional rockets that kill less people than peanut allergies.

It's not that simple though is it. One set of people shouldn't have to live under those conditions just because it is worse for another set of people. No country is going to sit there and let rockets however small into their country, regardless of how bad it is the other side. This isn't a competition to see who has it worse, it needs to be resolved for both sides.

 

[barros]

Do you recall why the palestine Arabs are in Gaza??

Why nobody answers that question? Maybe they know the answer.

 

[Kaos]

It's not that simple though is it. One set of people shouldn't have to live under those conditions just because it is worse for another set of people. No country is going to sit there and let rockets however small into their country, regardless of how bad it is the other side. This isn't a competition to see who has it worse, it needs to be resolved for both sides.

I agree with your concluding sentiment there.

I just think its difficult to sympathise with one side's melancholic "How can we live?" stance when the other side endures a much more macabre existence, mostly caused by them.