Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Kaos said:
Colonel Richard Kemp, right I'm out.
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holyland red said:
Always wondered how posts like this are meant to discredit a person's opinion.
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Not your opinion. His.

Richard Kemp wrote several articles about Cast Lead despite never visiting the region. If you wanted someone to "tell the story" about the operation you'd think you'd want him to have actually been there, or close to it.

(Also helps that he was trained by the IDF and worked closely with Mossad)
 
thegregster said:
Israel has a long record of using Palestinian children as human shields.

The IDF even appealed to the Israeli high court to continue using it.

So are we going to call them war criminals along side Hamas?


http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-troops-used-11-year-old-boy-as-human-shield-in-gaza-1.272716

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620



Suspended sentence of three months for a war crime? Pathetic.

Geneva Convention III
Article 23, first paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention III provides: No prisoner of war may at any time be sent to, or detained in areas where he may be exposed to the fire of the combat zone, nor may his presence be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operation
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Israel's supreme court outlawed that practice. Measures have been taken against those convicted as you rightly pointed out.
 
holyland red said:
Israel's supreme court outlawed that practice. Measures have been taken against those convicted as you rightly pointed out.
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It was a breech of international law before the high courts ruling.

Its a war crime.

It carries a three months suspended sentence in the IDF. Absolutely pathetic.
 
Cereal Killer said:
Not your opinion. His.

Richard Kemp wrote several articles about Cast Lead despite never visiting the region. If you wanted someone to "tell the story" about the operation you'd think you'd want him to have actually been there, or close to it.

(Also helps that he was trained by the IDF and worked closely with Mossad)
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He has also been trained and worked closely with his own and the US' army. Still, he reckons the IDF does better to protect civilian lives in combat zones.

I suppose most people giving an expert opinion here have not been in the region, at least during the conflict, yet you accept their opinion. I would argue that Col. Kemp knows more about urban warfare than any of those. How would you rank Prof. Chomsky's opinion based on his experience in urban warfare?
 
holyland red said:
Would you like them hanged for making kids stop throwing stones at them?
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Now clearly you know they are using human shields for other scenarios.

I would like them to get life for using children to examine bags that they think contain explosives. (I don't believe in the death penalty but that's another debate.)

Not a three month sentence and a return to the army.

Israel doesn't give a feck about war crimes against Palestinians. Clear to see. It never has.
 
thegregster said:
Now clearly you know they are using human shields for other scenarios.

I would like them to get life for using children to examine bags that they think contain explosives. (I don't believe in the death penalty but that's another debate.)

Not a three month sentence and a return to the army.

Israel doesn't give a feck about war crimes against Palestinians. Clear to see. It never has.
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Human shields when a bunch of kids throw stones at you. Game, set and match. Israel...Palestinian kids...war crimes...

http://www.jpost.com/Health-and-Science/Jewish-kidney-donation-saves-Palestinian-boy-315177

Jewish kidney donation saves Palestinian boy
By JUDY SIEGEL-ITZKOVICH
06/02/2013 17:49


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Kidney of Israeli boy who suffered brain death saves Palestinian child; Peres: We are proud of your contribution to peace.
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Palestinian boy who got a kidney donation from Jewish boy. Photo: Courtesy Schneider Medical Center
Sarit and Avi Naor, who donated a kidney from their son Noam to a 10-year-old Palestinian boy on dialysis for seven years, received a phone call from President Shimon Peres on Sunday. Noam suffered irreversible lower-brain death after falling from a fourth-story window in his home to the second floor below.
 
holyland red said:
Human shields when a bunch of kids throw stones at you. Game, set and match. Israel...Palestinian kids...war crimes...

.
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"Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted," it said.
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What about this case?
:rolleyes:
 
holyland red said:
He has also been trained and worked closely with his own and the US' army. Still, he reckons the IDF does better to protect civilian lives in combat zones.

I suppose most people giving an expert opinion here have not been in the region, at least during the conflict, yet you accept their opinion. I would argue that Col. Kemp knows more about urban warfare than any of those. How would you rank Prof. Chomsky's opinion based on his experience in urban warfare?
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No I don't.

I also don't know much about Chomsky's opinion on urban warfare to be completely honest.

Edit: I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything. Just pointing out that using Kemp's opinion as a reference probably isn't the best idea.
 
Cereal Killer said:
No I don't.

I also don't know much about Chomsky's opinion on urban warfare to be completely honest.

Edit: I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything. Just pointing out that using Kemp's opinion as a reference probably isn't the best idea.
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I struggle to think of a better expert opinion, based on access to comparative stats.
 
holyland red said:
He has also been trained and worked closely with his own and the US' army. Still, he reckons the IDF does better to protect civilian lives in combat zones.
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Because the British and US military are so renown for preserving civilian lives at time of war. Let's look at Colonel Kemp's tour of duty and assess the civilian preservation there:

Bosnia - 40,000 Serb and Bosnian Civilians killed.

Iraq - 100,000+ civilians killed and war crimes galore.

Afghanistan - at least 21,000 civilians killed.

I'm hardly surprised he considers IDF a more humanitarian force since their killcount is tame in comparison.
 
holyland red said:
Human shields when a bunch of kids throw stones at you. Game, set and match. Israel...Palestinian kids...war crimes...

.
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holyland red said:
Rocks kill. Rock throwing youth should get their arse kicked at the very least.

Ari'el is approximately 20 miles from Tel Aviv.
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Rocks were a deadly weapon a month back according to you.

But when the Israeli use children as a human shields against rock/stone throwers sure its not even that serious.

We don't even have to consider the fact that they can kill people.
 
thegregster said:
Rocks were a deadly weapon a month back according to you.

But when the Israeli use children as a human shields against rock/stone throwers sure its not even that serious.

We don't even have to consider the fact that they can kill people.
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They do. I just think that the soldiers' line of thought was that the rock throwers wouldn't target one of their captured mates.
 
Kaos said:
Because the British and US military are so renown for preserving civilian lives at time of war. Let's look at Colonel Kemp's tour of duty and assess the civilian preservation there:

Bosnia - 40,000 Serb and Bosnian Civilians killed.

Iraq - 100,000+ civilians killed and war crimes galore.

Afghanistan - at least 21,000 civilians killed.

I'm hardly surprised he considers IDF a more humanitarian force since their killcount is tame in comparison.
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Exactly. Could not agree more. How about the rest of you?

Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers used an Arab kid as a human shield to prevent his classmates throwing stones at them...Where is the ICJ when you need it?
 
I have never really followed the Israel - Palestine issue conflict. Can someone give me a summary of what exactly is the issue?
 
thegregster said:
So war crimes shouldn't be punished harshly if nobody get hurt?

No way is three months suspended sentence an appropriate punishment.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11462635

If an Arab was caught using a Jewish person as a human shield I doubt it would be a suspended sentence.
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In case you have not noticed, the Arabs you've been siding with over the last couple of weeks fire rockets at millions of Israelis. And they appear to target Jews only...

http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/874/4350.htm

What would be an appropriate punishment there?
 
Kiristao this is probably the worst place to learn anything. Its become a parody of the actual conflict itself.
 
kiristao said:
I have never really followed the Israel - Palestine issue conflict. Can someone give me a summary of what exactly is the issue?
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Two parts and 5 hours long. It does give a really good insight into it if you have the time.
 
Mighty too that in this day and age how countries or armies have the technology to accurately blow up rockets way up in the sky but yet somehow manage to get their aim so wrong when what we're led to believe targeting the crowd that's aiming said rockets at them that they blow up hospitals and innocent kids running round playing on a beach etc.
 
Lowkey said:
I know. The days when the western media can spout utter nonsense and brainwash nations to make out like this is some fair war, and that Hamas is actually a problem that Israel needs defending against is pretty mind blowing stuff. It is pretty amazing how Israel can basically invade countries at will using the self defence tactic, stick two fingers up at the UN or any other country that objects against it and then carry on killing innocent people when it is the size of a bag of peanuts and should be sanctioned, brought to justice for its war crimes is also quite disheartening. People are far too easily duped these days. We should all learn from Israel how its done.
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Here we go again. I'll list my reply in numbered points to make it easier for you to comprehend, I'm nice like that.

1) Last time I checked Gaza wasn't a country.

2) Hamas also sticks 2 fingers up to the UN on a regular basis by violating human rights laws as well.

3) Firing deadly rockets at a civilian populace is also a war crime. I'm waiting for you to then reply with "Oh but the rockets don't kill anybody", which is a flawed argument in itself. I think you should go to Sderot when the sirens wail, sit on a deck chair then tell me if they are deadly.

If you want to bring Israel to "Justice" the same applies for Hamas, end of.
 
@kiristao The best thing to do is to read materials about the history of the conflict from both sides then make up your mind on the matter.

Despite this being made by Jewish students I think this gives a fairly unbiased and accurate summary of what it is all about

 
KingCantona87 said:
3) Firing deadly rockets at a civilian populace is also a war crime. I'm waiting for you to then reply with "Oh but the rockets don't kill anybody", which is a flawed argument in itself. I think you should go to Sderot when the sirens wail, sit on a deck chair then tell me if they are deadly.

If you want to bring Israel to "Justice" the same applies for Hamas, end of.
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In addition, the firing of these weapons from civilian areas is a war crime in itself, precisely because of the threat it puts those citizens under from retaliation.
 
KingCantona87 said:
@kiristao The best thing to do is to read materials about the history of the conflict from both sides then make up your mind on the matter.

Despite this being made by Jewish students I think this gives a fairly unbiased and accurate summary of what it is all about

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Jewish Institute of Justice? Its not the worst video but ignores the fact its still an occupation, which you can't sugarcoat.

On a side note, you may wish to ask for a username change ;)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4243386,00.html
 
Kaos said:
Jewish Institute of Justice? Its not the worst video but ignores the fact its still an occupation, which you can't sugarcoat.

On a side note, you may wish to ask for a username change ;)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4243386,00.html
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Just because he thinks that way about Israel doesn't make him any less of a legend in my eyes ;) He's entitled to think what he likes. Occupation??? Nah
 
KingCantona87 said:
Here we go again. I'll list my reply in numbered points to make it easier for you to comprehend, I'm nice like that.

1) Last time I checked Gaza wasn't a country.

2) Hamas also sticks 2 fingers up to the UN on a regular basis by violating human rights laws as well.

3) Firing deadly rockets at a civilian populace is also a war crime. I'm waiting for you to then reply with "Oh but the rockets don't kill anybody", which is a flawed argument in itself. I think you should go to Sderot when the sirens wail, sit on a deck chair then tell me if they are deadly.

If you want to bring Israel to "Justice" the same applies for Hamas, end of.
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i like this game. let me play too.

1. The fact that you even suggest this is a fair war is humorous at best.
2. When you oppress and occupy people. Just like the Nazi's did to the Jews. When the oppressed are put in a corner just like the Gaza people are, then they will try and fight back no matter what, with what little they have.
3. Trying to compare the death tolls for both sides over the past 10 years is LAUGHABLE. USA has provided Israel with the best defence mechanisms for these home made rockets that are coming in to Israel and they are doing feck all lets be honest.
4. The difference between Hammas' rockets and Israels rockets is not even comparable. Israel has all the technology. They have pin point accuracy. They know exactly what to target, where to target, how many people are in the area, how many potential casualties. They have all the technology to see into Gaza. Mistakes made by Israel's billion dollar rocket system are minimal. They know exactly what they are doing and why. They want to destroy the infrastructure. They have succeeded
5. Israel has violated, occupied, oppressed, terrorised, invaded, killed not only Gaza civilians but invaded countries with no retaliation. Thousands have been killed and Israel gets away with it.

This game is boring. As are you. The word Hamas is being thrown around way too easy. It is a word being touted in the media as an excuse. If Hamas did not exist, then another excuse would be found. It is quite clear that Israel wants to eradicate Gaza completely off the map as your own MP's have clearly stated. The intentions have been made clear. Hamas is just an excuse for Israel. They are no threat. They do not have the means.

Also, i want to make this clear that there is no problem between Jews and Muslims. This is not a religious war. I have seen many Jewish Rabbi's, i have friends in Israel that constantly protest against the Zionist's and want to free Palestine from occupation. Muslims protected and safeguarded Jews, allowed them to preach and pray under safety for many years and they respected each other very much. This was at the time when Jews were being persecuted by the Christians. My Muslim friends say the same thing. This is not religious. This is corrupt, powerful, savage leaders that have their own agenda no matter the cost and are causing war crimes and violating human rights.

This argument goes in circles anyway. You try to justify the killings of innocent civilians and the occupation and oppression of these poor people and i will never be able to accept it. What is happening in Gaza not just now but for a decade is inhumane and wrong.
 
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