Any chance the British conduct in NI would have been different if hundreds of rockets were lobbed from those houses into the UK on a daily basis?
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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Any chance the British conduct in NI would have been different if hundreds of rockets were lobbed from those houses into the UK on a daily basis?
Yet you adopt the narrative of the video as a fact.
That video is probably from Syria... Wouldn't be the first time that has been done. Anything purporting to be Israel doing wrong is jumped on with glee and delight. Yet none of you question the validity of said video.
Videos can be powerful when edited in the right way. For all you know 5 minutes before the camera started recording he could of been waving an AK about?
I'm not saying that Israel hasn't behaved in this manner in the past and I'm sure it will do so in the future. I am however, highly suspicious of that video.
Videos can be powerful when edited in the right way. For all you know 5 minutes before the camera started recording he could of been waving an AK about?
I'm not saying that Israel hasn't behaved in this manner in the past and I'm sure it will do so in the future. I am however, highly suspicious of that video.
This question is never adressed by the anti-Israel brigade.
I have observed something remarkable when reading both sides of the argument, and that is the lack of a secular voice in this debate. In realizing this, I’ve also come to understand why so many who are so passionate about this issue will never really find solace in any type of agreement between the sworn enemies. Put simply; they are influenced heavily by one or both of the following; the religious doctrine they chose to follow, and/or the lack of critical, rational (secular) thinking from an unbiased perspective.
I for one am a firm believer that Israel should not exist as an exclusively Jewish state. The aged argument of “it was our land, it was promised to us and therefore it belongs to us” will not suffice. However, the Jewish population that do reside in Palestine/Israel have every right to be there with their fellow monotheists. Each third of these dogmas (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) have equally good claims to parts of this holy land.
A majority of the population within Palestine believe in a two-state solution. It’s what was and still is expected from the United States (despite what many Pro-Palestinian groups will have you believe), Great Britain, the United Nations, European Union the Palestine Liberation Organization and a good majority of the western world.
So the question is: “Why is it made impossible?” The answer is that the notion of sharing this holy land is constantly vetoed by the Jewish and Islamic respective “Parties of God”, who hold more power than any elected leader in this disrupted state.
On one side, the crazed (and absolutely barbaric) Messianic Settlers, who think that by claiming the entirety of their “promised land”, through brutality, violence and theft in the name of God, can fast track the arrival of the Messiah.
And the Islamic view, equally naïve and solipsistic in nature only go on to confirm the Jewish view that “Yes, you are indeed correct, God does make the choice of who lives here, however you have got it wrong, you have the wrong God and the land isfor Muslims and Muslims only”. Not Christians, nor Secularists.
You can see where we have a problem, right?
It is here that the division is drawn and the very reason we will never see a resolution to this conflict. To say that this is just a case of “who’s the immigrant” would be obtuse to say the least. The catalyst for these conflicts and lack of any truce between the warring sides are the doctrines that push hatred for each others faiths. This will never be changed; it is taught to be the very word of God and they (Jews and Muslims) will forever remain the best of enemies.
It begs the question why God, who is seemingly the Master of Real Estate in this area, doesn’t let us know exactly how this should pan out to save us any more death and destruction.
I for one am a firm believer that Israel should not exist as an exclusively Jewish state. The aged argument of “it was our land, it was promised to us and therefore it belongs to us” will not suffice. However, the Jewish population that do reside in Palestine/Israel have every right to be there with their fellow monotheists. Each third of these dogmas (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) have equally good claims to parts of this holy land.
A majority of the population within Palestine believe in a two-state solution. It’s what was and still is expected from the United States (despite what many Pro-Palestinian groups will have you believe), Great Britain, the United Nations, European Union the Palestine Liberation Organization and a good majority of the western world.
So the question is: “Why is it made impossible?” The answer is that the notion of sharing this holy land is constantly vetoed by the Jewish and Islamic respective “Parties of God”, who hold more power than any elected leader in this disrupted state.
On one side, the crazed (and absolutely barbaric) Messianic Settlers, who think that by claiming the entirety of their “promised land”, through brutality, violence and theft in the name of God, can fast track the arrival of the Messiah.
And the Islamic view, equally naïve and solipsistic in nature only go on to confirm the Jewish view that “Yes, you are indeed correct, God does make the choice of who lives here, however you have got it wrong, you have the wrong God and the land isfor Muslims and Muslims only”. Not Christians, nor Secularists.
You can see where we have a problem, right?
It is here that the division is drawn and the very reason we will never see a resolution to this conflict. To say that this is just a case of “who’s the immigrant” would be obtuse to say the least. The catalyst for these conflicts and lack of any truce between the warring sides are the doctrines that push hatred for each others faiths. This will never be changed; it is taught to be the very word of God and they (Jews and Muslims) will forever remain the best of enemies.
It begs the question why God, who is seemingly the Master of Real Estate in this area, doesn’t let us know exactly how this should pan out to save us any more death and destruction.
I suggested paying attention to the quoted sources, be it Palestinian sources or the IDF, before accepting the news reports as gospel. It is fine posting sources that refute others, and it is up to every one of us to be patient and honest enough in choosing what to believe. Personally, when a Palestinian source admits a warning prior to a strike, or when the IDF admits killing civilinas I have a good reason to believe the story. However, change the roles and you have a reason to believe that the same stories could serve a purpose.
I am biased, and don't expect anyone to believe me, which is why I've been trying to back my position with what I consider to be the best impartial evidence possible considering the circumstances. It's up to the rest of the posters to make up their minds and believe what they want.
Being secular, I stopped right there.
What are people's thoughts on this? http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4401/egypt-israel-hamas
Referring to Joe's question, if America was attacked in its home by say Canadians, or Mexicans (and assuming these countries are small strips of land rather than full blown massive countries), considering its military capability, it would probably go on an offensive, destroy all enemy target points, and return in 2-3 days, with minimal civilian impact and not continue the offensive for weeks shelling hospitals among other things. Or perhaps, if it did, then it would not hide the fact behind false pretenses that all such reports are lies and we are really humanitarian soldiers and we mean no harm to civilians.
Most importantly perhaps, America, recognizing the necessity for long term solutions, would perhaps be supportive of its foes and try to make allies out of them, not continuing to expand settlements in already demarcated areas or let them live in wretched conditions so they continue to foster hatred, so that organizations like Hamas are not elected or there are no shellings in the first place, out of popular will, considering it has the financial resources to do so.
In regards to that video, taken from Liveleak.
Why I Believe 'Israeli Sniper Killing Wounded Civilian' Is a Fraud
Let me preface this by saying I am not Israeli, a Zionist , or even Jewish. I just believe in the truth. I don't think either side is without blame, but I think it is all about intentions. For one side, civilian casualties are an unfortunate, unintentional consequence. For the other, civilian casualties are the goal. View the video and draw your own conclusions based on what you see, not what you want to see.
Earlier today, Liveleak featured a video entitled 'Israeli sniper killing wounded civilian'.
The video states 'Editing by the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)'. Presumably the workers in the yellow vests are from that organization. From the ISM's own website:
About ISM
Who We Are
The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) is a Palestinian-led movement committed to
resisting the long-entrenched and systematic oppression and dispossession of the
Palestinian population, using non-violent, direct-action methods and principles. Founded in
August 2001, ISM aims to support and strengthen the Palestinian popular resistance by being
immediately alongside Palestinians in olive groves, on school runs, at demonstrations, within
villages being attacked, by houses being demolished or where Palestinians are subject to
consistent harassment or attacks from soldiers and settlers as well as numerous other
situations.
My video is slowed down between 00:00 and 01:25 and also between 01:34 and 01:58. The video in its entirety corresponds to the segment between 02:16 and 03:07 of the original. I did not edit anything in or out. I only slowed the 2 parts noted above in order to more clearly see what was happening or supposedly happening. These segments cover all 3 of the alleged sniper shots.
Here is why I believe it is completely fabricated and fake...not to mention poorly acted. The times noted correspond to the original video.
Around 02:20 - You can see the distance between the green shirt and his group and the workers wearing the yellow vests. Pretty far away.
02:24 - Green shirt is standing right in front of the cameraman. Close enough they could touch each other. Shot is heard on camera or dubbed in.
02:25 - Green shirt is now laying on the ground a fair distance from the cameraman. Let's say approximately 15 feet. Inexplicably, they are now separated by twisted metal and concrete. There is no blood or visible gun shot wound. Just one round from a sniper rifle though. Hey, maybe it's a fluke.
02:30 - Miracle of miracles. We now see they are incredibly close to the aid workers. Which is convenient if you are trying to recite dialogue. At the distance they were when the first shot rang out, it would be tough to pick up what the workers might say on the camera's microphone. This makes it more compelling and believable. It's tough to create heart-wrenching theater when you're shouting at each other from long distances.
02:37 - Second alleged shot. Again, there is still zero blood or visible gun shot wounds. It's starting to look a little suspicious, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. These people are nothing if not honest and trustworthy.
02:54 - It's an early Christmas miracle. 3rd hit. The 'kill shot'. Three shots to the body with no impact seen on camera, no visible gunshot wounds, and not even a speck of blood.
If you can view this video, given the evidence that is clear and obvious on the video, and still believe he was shot by a sniper, then that's certainly your right. I think it's a fake and not even a good one.
Why I Believe 'Israeli Sniper Killing Wounded Civilian' Is a Fraud
Let me preface this by saying I am not Israeli, a Zionist , or even Jewish. I just believe in the truth. I don't think either side is without blame, but I think it is all about intentions. For one side, civilian casualties are an unfortunate, unintentional consequence. For the other, civilian casualties are the goal. View the video and draw your own conclusions based on what you see, not what you want to see.
Earlier today, Liveleak featured a video entitled 'Israeli sniper killing wounded civilian'.
The video states 'Editing by the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)'. Presumably the workers in the yellow vests are from that organization. From the ISM's own website:
About ISM
Who We Are
The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) is a Palestinian-led movement committed to
resisting the long-entrenched and systematic oppression and dispossession of the
Palestinian population, using non-violent, direct-action methods and principles. Founded in
August 2001, ISM aims to support and strengthen the Palestinian popular resistance by being
immediately alongside Palestinians in olive groves, on school runs, at demonstrations, within
villages being attacked, by houses being demolished or where Palestinians are subject to
consistent harassment or attacks from soldiers and settlers as well as numerous other
situations.
My video is slowed down between 00:00 and 01:25 and also between 01:34 and 01:58. The video in its entirety corresponds to the segment between 02:16 and 03:07 of the original. I did not edit anything in or out. I only slowed the 2 parts noted above in order to more clearly see what was happening or supposedly happening. These segments cover all 3 of the alleged sniper shots.
Here is why I believe it is completely fabricated and fake...not to mention poorly acted. The times noted correspond to the original video.
Around 02:20 - You can see the distance between the green shirt and his group and the workers wearing the yellow vests. Pretty far away.
02:24 - Green shirt is standing right in front of the cameraman. Close enough they could touch each other. Shot is heard on camera or dubbed in.
02:25 - Green shirt is now laying on the ground a fair distance from the cameraman. Let's say approximately 15 feet. Inexplicably, they are now separated by twisted metal and concrete. There is no blood or visible gun shot wound. Just one round from a sniper rifle though. Hey, maybe it's a fluke.
02:30 - Miracle of miracles. We now see they are incredibly close to the aid workers. Which is convenient if you are trying to recite dialogue. At the distance they were when the first shot rang out, it would be tough to pick up what the workers might say on the camera's microphone. This makes it more compelling and believable. It's tough to create heart-wrenching theater when you're shouting at each other from long distances.
02:37 - Second alleged shot. Again, there is still zero blood or visible gun shot wounds. It's starting to look a little suspicious, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. These people are nothing if not honest and trustworthy.
02:54 - It's an early Christmas miracle. 3rd hit. The 'kill shot'. Three shots to the body with no impact seen on camera, no visible gunshot wounds, and not even a speck of blood.
If you can view this video, given the evidence that is clear and obvious on the video, and still believe he was shot by a sniper, then that's certainly your right. I think it's a fake and not even a good one.
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The name Fallujah rings a bell? And people there didn't fire a single bullet, let alone rockets, into US soil.
Israel's neighbours seeks its elimination, which kind of makes reaching a long-term solution somewhat tricky. If the Palestinians used their resources for purposes other than arming and spreading hatred they would improve their population's wretched conditions.
'Editing by the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)'
'Editing by the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)'
It's not like they have some sort of ulterior motive isn't it?
Hearts and minds eh, hearts and minds. What worries me is how easily duped most people are these days.
You're a joke. You're so biased it's unreal. The fact you'd even try to claim to be secular is highly unbelievable.
Out of interest how do you propose enemy target points, and the enemy themselves are taken out without massive collateral civilian damage considering the way Hamas are fighting this war?
Americas civilian death counts in Iraq and Afghanistan don't particularly paint a picture of an army too concerned with civilian casualties.
Well I've come to expect such a response from one who defends terrorists and murderers. Nothing new here.
That's because you can not believe anything that does not agree with your agenda. I'll go on and say I'm more secular than you are.
Any reason you blame Israel and not the Likud party for civilian casualties in Gaza?
More secular than I? Maybe you should read my post.
May well be wasted on someone like yourself, turning to "anti-semite" and "anti-Israel" at every turn.
Holyland Red. Yes. Very secular...
The crime of one State cannot be taken as a precedent or an excuse for crime by another State.
If Israel was willing to engage with Palestinians in Gaza, provide them with better support and assistance, do you think we would be where we are now? The promotion of militancy does not just arise out of hatred, it arises out of helplessness. Normal civilians would never want war, especially a war they know they would lose miserably. The rise in prominence of Hamas suggests people resorting to radical parties not because they know Hamas will bring an end to Israel, I sitting in a computer half way across the world know that and so do they, but because they are left with no other choice to defend their dignity. Israel should give those people dignity, to live their life, is that too much to ask? In today's world? Extend an olive branch, give those people chances of fortune, extend them support, give them chance to live their life, and Hamas would no doubt disappear. Just my thoughts on the situation.
I am pretty sure if rates of casualty could somehow be measured, for instance, civilian casualty per day or per raid something like that then American occupation would result in far less death of civilians. But I am no expert in this. I am also no expert in military strategies per say, but perhaps it is true that the Americans didn't go on to those countries and decided to destroy buildings filled with civilians with short moment's notice. There are strategies of fighting anti-guerrilla campaigns, and those can be easily implemented by Israeli forces. I am sure Israeli army is well trained in methods of fighting urban guerrilla warfare. Once again, as I say, I am no expert in this, just saying, there are perhaps more effective ways of reducing civilian casualty.
No, no ,no...don't try and ignore your previous post. You were very confident in portraying an American response to constant terrorist fire on its cities as a surgical miraculous 2-3 day incursion "with minimal civilian impact". Where did that go now?
Israel's response is well within the scope of a legitimate response under international law.
Israel have supplied Gazans with electricity and running water ever since the 2005 disengagement. These were used for manufacturing rockets rather than building better future for the population. Perhaps Israel should consider stopping the supply so the Palestinians appreciate it more. Incidently, the PA's debt to Israel's electricity company totals ~$150,000,000. Yes, we supply the Palestinians in Gaza free electricity for building rockets. I'm sure the US would have done the same.
We discussed olive branches before, but struggle to hand them to people who democratically elect a group that fires to the tune of:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Article seven, Hamas covenant.
HR, the 'religious fundamentalist defender of terrorists and murderers' - just checking, have you been called a Nazi yet or do the defenders of human rights and democracy still owe you this insult?
Sieg heil....I mean, what's up mate?
An Israeli soldier? Are you sure? Aren't those supposed to be Nazi murderers? Anyone aware of Eran Efrati's whereabouts. The self-procrlaimed democracy must have taken care of that individual.
We get to hear lots of opinions in our country.
ofcourse he is biased. It's his job to be. Like arguing with a brick wall. He will always try to justify the atrocities Israel is committing no matter how bad it gets.
It's not like they have some sort of ulterior motive isn't it?
Hearts and minds eh, hearts and minds. What worries me is how easily duped most people are these days.
I know. The days when the western media can spout utter nonsense and brainwash nations to make out like this is some fair war, and that Hamas is actually a problem that Israel needs defending against is pretty mind blowing stuff. It is pretty amazing how Israel can basically invade countries at will using the self defence tactic, stick two fingers up at the UN or any other country that objects against it and then carry on killing innocent people when it is the size of a bag of peanuts and should be sanctioned, brought to justice for its war crimes is also quite disheartening. People are far too easily duped these days. We should all learn from Israel how its done.
If American enemy was a tiny city just beyond its border, its strategy would most probably be different than what it was in Fallujah. The proximity and possibility of perpetuity clearly should be an important factor. As is clearly evident from Israel and Palestinian case for the umpteenth time, massive destruction of civilian lives and property is highly counter-productive for both sides. I can't open that video you suggested because its not permitted in my office but I will be glad to know what's in there.
As for olive branches, there is a difference between survival and living. Electricity and running water are not luxuries or wants, they are basic necessities. Non-providence of such facilities amounts of denial of basic human rights and considering the opportunities available to Palestinians, it is the duty of Israeli state to provide it. What I am talking about goes way beyond that.
Hamas is a part of a problem, no one denies that. But, one has to understand the circumstances why there were elected in the first place. Or why they were not successful, for instance in West Bank. If people of Gaza continue to suffer indignity, today's Hamas will take form of tomoro's next terrorist organization. It is in the interests of both States to better the lives of Gazans and that is the only solution forward.
Hamas is not part of the problem, Hamas IS the problem. Instead of trying to build a Sharm el Sheikh in 2005 they turned Gaza into a smuggling and rocket building factory.
UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
GENEVA, October 16, 2009 -- Emergency UN Human Rights Council debate on the Goldstone Report
Thank you, Mr. President.
I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee.
Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.
Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.
The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.
The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.
Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.
More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas’ way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.
Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.
And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Colonel Richard Kemp, right I'm out.
I see your German is already to a good standard
Life is splendid in sunny England. Think I'm in a mood for boycotting some Israeli goods today. I'll keep you posted.
I see your German is already to a good standard
Life is splendid in sunny England. Think I'm in a mood for boycotting some Israeli goods today. I'll keep you posted.
Beginners start with wine from the occupied Golan Heights. You then proceed to cellphone and laptop computer technology.
Always wondered how posts like this are meant to discredit a person's opinion.
Refer to the Goldstone Report.
I can see now that we are going in circles. And you didn't reply to my other point in the argument.
Lazy response. We were accused to the same "war crimes" tunes during operation Cast Lead. The stats and Col. Kemp tell the story behind the figures.
There have been several posts. What was your second point again?
Its not lazy because the current evidence suggests similar trends of large civilian casualty as well. Similarities cannot be denied. Just like you point out similarities on the modalities of operation of IDF, whose existence I haven't denied. All I am saying is, it has not been adequate, and it has not been effective as well.
My second point was the solution to the problem. Please refer to it.
Israel has a long record of using Palestinian children as human shields.
The IDF even appealed to the Israeli high court to continue using it.
So are we going to call them war criminals along side Hamas?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-troops-used-11-year-old-boy-as-human-shield-in-gaza-1.272716
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620
Suspended sentence of three months for a war crime? Pathetic.
The IDF even appealed to the Israeli high court to continue using it.
So are we going to call them war criminals along side Hamas?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-troops-used-11-year-old-boy-as-human-shield-in-gaza-1.272716
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620
Suspended sentence of three months for a war crime? Pathetic.
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Ihave not denied at any point that there is a human catastrophe in Gaza. Innocent civilina s are caught in the exchanges and suffer more than anyone else in this current round in violence. I did argue that no country in the world could have dealt with this crisis any differently, and that no army would have done more to minimize civilian casualties under similar circumstances. Not necessarily because of particularly high moral standards, but possibly because high civilian death toll is counter-productive for Israel's goals (in contrast with those of Hamas).
As for your second point, I am afraid I don't have the solution. As long as Hamas is in power in Gaza the situation isn't going to get much different. The most likely scenario is that in a week or two we'll see a ceasfire that will last a year or two before we go back to square one.