Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

KingCantona87 said:
Yes and no matter what Israel does, whether it be violent or the opposite, it stands to lose
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Indeed. So if we accept that there's no "right" way to deal with this, in terms of achieving a long term peaceful outcome, surely the least "wrong" approach is the one that doesn't involve shelling civilians?

Hence, Israel's current approach is very much worthy of criticism.
 
Pogue it is a catch-22 from Israel's perspective.

If they allowed the rockets to continue without doing nothing then what kind of message does that send?

On the other hand killing innocent civilians who are being used as cannon fodder by their own leadership doesn't send out the right message either to the eyes of the world.

Honestly Hamas need to go, then we can move forward. I'd like to see the Israeli government do something about the looney settlers for a kick off. Secondly we need to stop the endless cycle of indoctrination and hatred on both sides.

Digressing slightly this story does show there is hope, if only extremely small - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544971,00.html

Maybe I'm naive in my expectations but that would be incredible if that was a more frequent occurrence.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Pogue it is a catch-22 from Israel's perspective.

If they allowed the rockets to continue without doing nothing then what kind of message does that send?

On the other hand killing innocent civilians who are being used as cannon fodder by their own leadership doesn't send out the right message either to the eyes of the world.

Honestly Hamas need to go, then we can move forward. I'd like to see the Israeli government do something about the looney settlers for a kick off. Secondly we need to stop the endless cycle of indoctrination and hatred on both sides.

Digressing slightly this story does show there is hope, if only extremely small - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544971,00.html

Maybe I'm naive in my expectations but that would be incredible if that was a more frequent occurrence.
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That's a nice story and it does seem that moderates on both sides are a little less entrenched than they were in the past. Might be just new media making us more aware of this sort of thing though. I also thought the "Jewish not Zionist" protests struck a cord but again, I've no idea if this is anything new or different.

I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread, in as much as a lot of the mainstream media (and a lot of people in this thread) are demonising Israel wherever possible and the Israeli people and government have some difficult decisions to make in order to try to keep their citizens safe.

However, I also think that the longstanding oppresion of the Palestinian people is inexcusable and foments the type of extremism that empowers groups like Hamas. This latest incursion is going to make it a lot easier for Hamas to find new recruits and perpetuate the cycle of violence, so as well as leading to the death of innocents it's completely counter-productive. Which is the real tragedy here. Kids are dying but their deaths will only make future violence more, rather than less, likely.
 
Again it's a catch-22 situation. If Egypt and Israel opened their respective border crossings fully that would let in wave after wave of terrorist attacks in. The "oppression" comes just as much from their own leadership as it comes from Israel.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's a nice story and it does seem that moderates on both sides are a little less entrenched than they were in the past. Might be just new media making us more aware of this sort of thing though. I also thought the "Jewish not Zionist" protests struck a cord but again, I've no idea if this is anything new or different.

I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread, in as much as a lot of the mainstream media (and a lot of people in this thread) are demonising Israel wherever possible and the Israeli people and government have some difficult decisions to make in order to try to keep their citizens safe.

However, I also think that the longstanding oppresion of the Palestinian people is inexcusable and foments the type of extremism that empowers groups like Hamas. This latest incursion is going to make it a lot easier for Hamas to find new recruits and perpetuate the cycle of violence, so as well as leading to the death of innocents it's completely counter-productive. Which is the real tragedy here. Kids are dying but their deaths will only make future violence more, rather than less, likely.
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Good post, that last paragraph particularly explains an important point that goes amiss - oppression breeds extremism. Alleviate the oppression and you start the deprive the likes of Hamas.
 
Kaos said:
oppression breeds extremism. Alleviate the oppression and you start the deprive the likes of Hamas.
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Thats a real lazy cop-out. Always blaming the other.

Extremism causes extremism.

Even today the media is reporting about Islamic take-overs of BRITISH schools.

Are the Muslims oppressed in the UK???
 
Fearless said:
Thats a real lazy cop-out. Always blaming the other.

Extremism causes extremism.

Even today the media is reporting about Islamic take-overs of BRITISH schools.

Are the Muslims oppressed in the UK???
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How is it a cop out? Without doubt, oppression will cause extremism. If you deny a population their civil rights then they will adopt extreme measure to try and win them back. History has proven this beyond any reasonable doubt.

Of course, extremism can also exist amongst a population that is not being oppressed. The two scenarios aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Fearless said:
Thats a real lazy cop-out. Always blaming the other.

Extremism causes extremism.

Even today the media is reporting about Islamic take-overs of BRITISH schools.

Are the Muslims oppressed in the UK???
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so deluded. You do realise not all terrorists or extremists are Muslim right
 
Saskjoe said:
Sadly, this is the issue isn't it. I'm at a loss to where they go from here. If you try and take in the Palestinian civilians to safety and take out the Hamas threat, separating Hamas militants from genuine civilians is obviously an impossible task. Otherwise you're left with trying to take them out around the Palestinian public and continue causing massive collateral damage.

If Israel give into Hamas' demands, Hamas will just keep pushing for more, they aren't going away. It's an impossible situation.
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Let's push the US to give Israel the state of Nevada minus Reno and Las Vegas. Let them build their state where they can have peace and the protection of their most powerful friend.
 
I would also like to know where all of this anti Israel propaganda is. Because from what I have been watching, reading from news to newspapers, to radio shows, the majority of propaganda is demonising Muslims and Islam since 9/11 so I am very interested to find out where this anti Israel propaganda is coming from. That is coming from someone living in London anyway
 
Lowkey said:
I would also like to know where all of this anti Israel propaganda is. Because from what I have been watching, reading from news to newspapers, to radio shows, the majority of propaganda is demonising Muslims and Islam since 9/11 so I am very interested to find out where this anti Israel propaganda is coming from. That is coming from someone living in London anyway
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BERLIN (AP) — The foreign ministers of Germany, France and Italy on Tuesday condemned the rise in anti-Semitic protests and violence over the conflict in Gaza, saying they will do everything possible to combat it in their countries.

"Anti-Semitic rhetoric and hostility against Jews, attacks on people of Jewish belief and synagogues have no place in our societies," German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, France's Laurent Fabius and Italy's Federica Mogherini said in a joint statement issued in Brussels.

The three said that while they respect demonstrators' freedom of speech and right to assemble, they will also do everything possible to fight "acts and statements that cross the line to anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia."

Since the outbreak of violence between Israel and Hamas, participants at anti-Israel demonstrations across Germany have frequently used anti-Semitic slogans and also called for Jews to be gassed — a reference to the killing of Jews by the Nazis in the Holocaust.

In France, pro-Palestinian youths have clashed repeatedly with police, and on Sunday set fire to cars, pillaged stores and attacked two synagogues in the Paris suburbs, while Italy has also seen pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

Jewish groups have expressed shock and disgust about the growing anti-Semitism in Germany and other European countries with strong Muslim communities.

"We have reached a new level of hatred and violence in all of Europe that cannot even be compared to the anti-Semitism seen during previous conflicts in Israel," said Stephan Kramer, director of the European office on anti-Semitism of the American Jewish Committee in Brussels.

French President Francois Hollande met Monday with Jewish and Muslim leaders in the Elysee Palace, where he told them that fighting anti-Semitism will be a "national cause."

In Berlin, police said Tuesday they had banned pro-Gaza protesters from chanting an anti-Semitic slogan at all protests in the city.

Police spokeswoman Cosima Pauluhn also said that they were investigating a sermon last week by imam Abu Bilal Ismail calling on worshippers at Berlin's Al-Nur mosque to murder Jews.

The mosque did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

At a pro-Palestinian protest in front of the Israeli embassy in Berlin on Monday, 13 protesters were detained and police were pelted with stones.
 
Fearless said:
BERLIN (AP) — The foreign ministers of Germany, France and Italy on Tuesday condemned the rise in anti-Semitic protests and violence over the conflict in Gaza, saying they will do everything possible to combat it in their countries.

"Anti-Semitic rhetoric and hostility against Jews, attacks on people of Jewish belief and synagogues have no place in our societies," German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, France's Laurent Fabius and Italy's Federica Mogherini said in a joint statement issued in Brussels.

The three said that while they respect demonstrators' freedom of speech and right to assemble, they will also do everything possible to fight "acts and statements that cross the line to anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia."

Since the outbreak of violence between Israel and Hamas, participants at anti-Israel demonstrations across Germany have frequently used anti-Semitic slogans and also called for Jews to be gassed — a reference to the killing of Jews by the Nazis in the Holocaust.

In France, pro-Palestinian youths have clashed repeatedly with police, and on Sunday set fire to cars, pillaged stores and attacked two synagogues in the Paris suburbs, while Italy has also seen pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

Jewish groups have expressed shock and disgust about the growing anti-Semitism in Germany and other European countries with strong Muslim communities.

"We have reached a new level of hatred and violence in all of Europe that cannot even be compared to the anti-Semitism seen during previous conflicts in Israel," said Stephan Kramer, director of the European office on anti-Semitism of the American Jewish Committee in Brussels.

French President Francois Hollande met Monday with Jewish and Muslim leaders in the Elysee Palace, where he told them that fighting anti-Semitism will be a "national cause."

In Berlin, police said Tuesday they had banned pro-Gaza protesters from chanting an anti-Semitic slogan at all protests in the city.

Police spokeswoman Cosima Pauluhn also said that they were investigating a sermon last week by imam Abu Bilal Ismail calling on worshippers at Berlin's Al-Nur mosque to murder Jews.

The mosque did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

At a pro-Palestinian protest in front of the Israeli embassy in Berlin on Monday, 13 protesters were detained and police were pelted with stones.
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You gotta love the Zionists for portraying themselves as victims even when they are committing war crimes as we speak. Change that bloody record, it's not working anymore.
 
sullydnl said:
Disagree, I think. I'd say there are superficial similarities between the two but quite a lot of key differences. In fact I think a lot of people in Ireland wrongly fall into the trap of viewing the Israeli-Palestine conflict through the prism of the troubles.

The fact that pretty much everyone in NI was a British citizen made a massive difference, as did the IRA's methodology. Beyond that, I don't think attacks on the British mainland were ever as frequent as these rocket attacks on Israel. Also, there was never any professed threat to mainland Britain's existence. Plus the troubles only really ever concerned those directly involved and America, whereas the Israeli - Palestinian conflict probably has many more interested parties, all with conflicting agendas.

These differences totally change the practicalities and principles of the two conflicts, I think, as well as the likelihood of lasting peace.
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Ok so a bunch of (Presbyterian / Zionist) fanatics get kicked out of their homelands (Scotland / dozens of countries) and head to a land of promise. Said land of promise contains an opposing bunch of not-quite-as-fanatical religious types of subtly differing belief (Catholics / Muslims) who aren't too keen on having to live with the newcomers. The newcomers declare the rather miffed natives as heretics and try to push them out of 'their' area, it all escalates and eventually both sides start bombing each other in terrorist attacks. The British troops are responsible for enforcing law and order (whatever your opinions of their success) and not the fanatics.

Here's where things diverge. The British can't pull out of Northern Ireland as it would be abandoning their own citizens, they can pull out of Israel and so they leave the responsibility for establishing law and order with the fanatics. Chaos and destruction ensues.

The only way to actually gain lasting peace is for the people enforcing order to be reasonable and not motivated by any ideology other than the desire for peace and also be committed enough to see it through.
 
Dwazza Van Hernandez said:
Let's push the US to give Israel the state of Nevada minus Reno and Las Vegas. Let them build their state where they can have peace and the protection of their most powerful friend.
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I think we have a winner here, no one lives outside of Vegas and Reno anyway apart from rednecks, and who cares about them anyway. I think you've cracked the problem.
 
Lowkey said:
I would also like to know where all of this anti Israel propaganda is. Because from what I have been watching, reading from news to newspapers, to radio shows, the majority of propaganda is demonising Muslims and Islam since 9/11 so I am very interested to find out where this anti Israel propaganda is coming from. That is coming from someone living in London anyway
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There isn't. Major worldwide media outlets have already chosen how to portray things.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Who was in the Levant before the Ottoman Empire? The Khilafah (Caliphate). They share views extremely similar to ISIS. God help us all if they gain control of the Arab world.

It is a fight over religion, just as much as it is over land.
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:lol: Where to begin...

Just because ISIS declared a Caliphate doesn't mean it was legitimate in the eyes of the vast majority of Muslims: 20% are Shia who don't even view the concept of a Caliph as being legitimate in the first place. While of the remaining 80%, see the horrific methods and the blood lust as being so far away from Islam that they view the likes of ISIS as being disbelievers, or Khawarij. If anything, ISIS have more in common with Israel's pseudo-ally Saudi Arabia, with their polemic, takfiri, hate-infested Wahabbi ideology. The Saudis were the ones who actually dismantled the Khilafah btw, with the help of the British and French in the form of the Sykes-Picot Act and their numerous meddlings in the final days of the Ottoman Empire.

Right, history lesson over... Back to my dissertation.
 
rotherham_red said:
:lol: Where to begin...

Just because ISIS declared a Caliphate doesn't mean it was legitimate in the eyes of the vast majority of Muslims: 20% are Shia who don't even view the concept of a Caliph as being legitimate in the first place. While of the remaining 80%, see the horrific methods and the blood lust as being so far away from Islam that they view the likes of ISIS as being disbelievers, or Khawarij. If anything, ISIS have more in common with Israel's pseudo-ally Saudi Arabia, with their polemic, takfiri, hate-infested Wahabbi ideology. The Saudis were the ones who actually dismantled the Khilafah btw, with the help of the British and French in the form of the Sykes-Picot Act and their numerous meddlings in the final days of the Ottoman Empire.

Right, history lesson over... Back to my dissertation.
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Yes and yes. To go a little bit further ISIS are Israel's pseudo ally and CIA's baby.
 
Hellboy said:
Yes and yes. To go a little bit further ISIS are Israel's pseudo ally and CIA's baby.
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I personally don't know what to think of those scum, tbh. It is quite convenient how they have derailed the Syrian Revolution when they actually did and sparked the sectarian war, along with Jhabat al Nusra... Hezbollah and the likes of JN, ISIS et al are two sides of the same coin for me. The sooner both perish, the better.
 
Hellboy said:
ISIS is so zionist. Their "fighters" for instance are treated in Tel Aviv. Puppets financed by USA/Israel to divide and conquer even more.

They make the average american and the stupid european hate the muslim even more, that's about it (we saw it live in this thread with that portuguese american lad who was out of his depth).
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Not to mention the iaf bombing syrian govt and army positions to further aid these animals.
 
Fearless said:
In Berlin, police said Tuesday they had banned pro-Gaza protesters from chanting an anti-Semitic slogan at all protests in the city.

Police spokeswoman Cosima Pauluhn also said that they were investigating a sermon last week by imam Abu Bilal Ismail calling on worshippers at Berlin's Al-Nur mosque to murder Jews.

The mosque did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

At a pro-Palestinian protest in front of the Israeli embassy in Berlin on Monday, 13 protesters were detained and police were pelted with stones.
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http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4352.htm

This may help the "investigation". The EU is shit scared with Islamic radicals, particularly the scum that is on the way back from Syria armed with EU passports.
 
holyland red said:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4352.htm

This may help the "investigation". The EU is shit scared with Islamic radicals, particularly the scum that is on the way back from Syria armed with EU passports.
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Such an inspiring sermon, isnt it. Btw, I didn't know Gaza is pronounces as 'Hasza'.

As for the rise of anti-Semitism (Fearless' post), that's been going on for quite some time. @Hellboy, this is not a Zionist propaganda but something that is flagged and reported by the German home office.

Laut Innenministerium hat sich die Zahl "antisemitischer Straftaten" von 2011 auf 2012 tatsächlich um 10,9 Prozent erhöht, darunter fallen Delikte wie Pöbeleien gegen Jüdinnen und Juden, Brandanschläge auf Synagogen, Schändungen jüdischer Friedhöfe oder die Zerstörung von Stolpersteinen. Die Zahl der "antisemitischen Gewalttaten" hat sich demnach sogar um 41,3 Prozent erhöht.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/2013-11/Antisemitismus-Deutschland-Gedenktag
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Last year German Home Office reported a rise of 'anti-semitic crimes' (41.3% increase).

Laut einer Studie der Ebert-Stiftung von 2012 ist der sogenannte "sekundäre Antisemitismus", also die Relativierung des Holocausts und Judenfeindlichkeit in Reaktion auf den Holocaust, bei knapp 24 Prozent der Deutschen verbreitet. Und auch die Stiftung Erinnerung, Verantwortung, Zukunft geht davon aus, dass judenfeindliche Argumentationen und Stereotype mittlerweile in Gesellschaftskreisen als akzeptabel gelten, in denen sie noch vor einigen Jahren abgelehnt wurden.
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The so called 'secondary anti-Semitism' (downplaying the holocaust, anti-Semitic reaction to the holocaust, etc) is on the rise and apparently present amongst 24% of the German population. Anti-Jewish stereotypes creeping in and becoming more and more acceptable in the society.
 
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/nbc-reporter-ayman-mohyeldin-back-in-gaza.html

“Ultimately, the public backlash played a role in the network’s decision to reinstate him, according to interviews with NBC News employees,” CNN’s Brian Stelter reported. While anonymous network sources tried to spin the PR bungle as paranoia over performance — “Everyone’s looking for a conspiracy and missing the real story, which is a news division making mistakes through ratings nervousness,” said one employee — Mohyeldin’s behavior hinted at a more political disagreement."

Interesting how public opinion in America is changing. Social media has been a powerful tool in getting the story of the Palestinian people out. As a result the main stream media has had to report it.
 
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