True - and certainly one massive distinction between both sides here is that the Israelis make an attempt to target Hamas launch sites and warn residents about upcoming strikes, whereas Hamas' aim in firing rockets is to kill as many Israelis as possible, irrespective of whether they are civilians or not.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
True - and certainly one massive distinction between both sides here is that the Israelis make an attempt to target Hamas launch sites and warn residents about upcoming strikes, whereas Hamas' aim in firing rockets is to kill as many Israelis as possible, irrespective of whether they are civilians or not.
I find the logic and the justification for killing children and innocent civilians whatever race, culture, background, history all a bit too much really. Unfortunately, as bad as Palestine is, and it is atrocious. Systematic genocide has happened and continues to happen at a much larger scale all over the world yet we do not have much media coverage about it. Our media hides it under the rug. There was 20,000 people killed in Burma this year and these figures are just estimates. Some of the most horrific pictures of modern day massacre that you will ever see.
please do not look unless you really want to see something tragic
My point is. No matter what, trying to justify this war as a means of self-defence and the fact that it is a 'war' so shit happens in regards to innocent civilians being struck off. I mean, I know we are all behind keyboards but that could be one of us. It could be one of our families, children, cousins, relatives. How there are posters that are so quick to just brush it off emotionlessly shows how desensitised we are as a society and civilisation and trying to justify the unjustifiable. Meh, it just makes me sad. I was tearing up watching that video. Why isn't the world doing something to stop this?
please do not look unless you really want to see something tragic
My point is. No matter what, trying to justify this war as a means of self-defence and the fact that it is a 'war' so shit happens in regards to innocent civilians being struck off. I mean, I know we are all behind keyboards but that could be one of us. It could be one of our families, children, cousins, relatives. How there are posters that are so quick to just brush it off emotionlessly shows how desensitised we are as a society and civilisation and trying to justify the unjustifiable. Meh, it just makes me sad. I was tearing up watching that video. Why isn't the world doing something to stop this?
2. That is the number of Israeli civilians who've died in this conflict thus far. Regardless of intention to kill which we'll never know, the number of Israeli civilian casualties is fractions of a percent of the Palestinian casualties.
Its obviously disproportionate because the Israelis have a way to mitigate risk with Iron Dome (otherwise significantly more of their citizens would've died), and Hamas are basically fighting a guerilla war by firing rockets from densely populated areas, which invites Israeli retaliation and greater Palestinian casualties. No way around the high casualties given how both sides fight.
I'm not sure how you could see much with a shaky camera but I'll take your word for it...
Rubbish. The British soldiers in Northern Ireland weren't allowed to just shoot up any house where they thought there might be IRA. To win a war like this you sometimes have to be willing to sacrifice troops in order to prevent civilian deaths and if you don't it's not on the terrorists' conscience when you kill those people, it should be on your own.
Sacrifice own troops in order to prevent civilian deaths of other side? Yeah, right.
I don't think you can compare the situations of different countries as their militaries use different methodologies. The Israelis have air and ground superiority and are obviously going to use it to their advantage. If they didn't, what's the point in having it, they could simply get loads of rockets and lob them back into Gaza. The Israelis have used a lot of restraint in their campaign so far. If they hadn't they would simply pulverize every building they wanted to with air power, and without warning.
How are both sides even culpable? The Palestinians are being obliterated by the Israeli army. Once again, the Palestinians and not Hammas. In no way are both parties equal in this. It's an army slaughtering civilians to create fear and terror in the state.
As for @KingCantona87 : You are playing the "everyone just hates Israel" card now because you really don't have much to say that can defend the loss of civilian lives. This debate just keeps going in circles and the reason is there is no justification for killing civilians. I have a question to everyone else on here as well:
If Hammas is labelled a terrorist organization for firing rockets (which makes sense), Why isn't the Israeli army labelled as a terrorist army for bombing civilians?
Both sides are actively engaged in a conflict - so both have to take responsibility for their actions. Hamas could've completely avoided all of the bloodshed by not sending hundreds of rockets into Israel. Had they acted responsibly they could have saved the lives of every Palestinian who has died. Saying this seems to annoy a few people, but it happens to be true. Israel has all the power in this conflict, so taking actions that will cause them to use it carries significant risk.
Technically they were British citizens(Well not all but chances were that around 97% were born in NI and the odd few people were born in the republic). So the British were never going to start bombing their own citizens. I doubt they could ever contemplate using that tactic in NI.
But once again you're saying it's the fault of Hammas that civilians are being killed. That makes absolutely no sense. Like I said before, I wouldn't wish death upon anyone but Israel killing the people who fired the rockets would make more sense not the civilians.
In other words, one side is engaged in conflict, the other is defenseless (the people). Hammas is being targeted almost less than the civilians. Just makes no sense to me...
EDIT: Fight the people who fire the rockets. Not the whole state! The logic to defend this is sometimes "well the people elected hammas". Really? So the people also elected the Israeli government, is it okay then?
And let's not say one of the best army in the world has a less than 50 percent accuracy in counter-terrorism (civilian deaths)
Mate, I am just curious, and i may be naive at this. Is it too much to setup refugee camps for fleeing people by opening the border and will this not limit civilian deaths??.. I mean, where else are they supposed to go?
If Israel really cared about civilians, they could do this rather than a 53 second warning.
Hamas must share a huge amount of the blame because they know exactly what they are doing. Deliberately launching rockets from residential areas packed with civilians (a war crime for a good reason) knowing full well what they are goading Isreal into doing. Instead of protecting their people that they are supposed to be representing, they are deliberately using them as collateral. You can't kill the people firing the rockets without hitting these civilians because of where they are firing from. You give an evacuation order to the civilians and the guys firing are long gone with them.
Now I don't back how Isreal go about it, but if it was America or any other western country having to deal with rockets being fired into their lands do you really think they would just sit there and let them launch them in without retaliating?
Isreal must take a huge portion of the blame but I think it's naive to think that Hamas don't know exactly what they are doing and they must take the blame for that too.
Don't Hamas run Gaza ? If they were interested in avoiding Israeli incursions (either by air or ground) all they had to do was not fire rockets. Unfortunately, their military strategy is to lure Israel into invading, then use any subsequent sympathy of the lopsided appearance of the Israeli invasion as a means to get more international pressure on Israel to achieve their longer term political goals - which of course won't work because Israel has all the power.
I agree there should be humanitarian corridors set up for refugees and those fleeing the violence to stay out of harms way.
And what is the reason the rockets were fired in first place??. Not that I am saying that is right.
For the reasons I stated above - to lure Israel into a conflict and use the publicity to achieve their broader political goals. A sad, half-thought out, strategy that has led to the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians.
Actually I think the situations in Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine are almost entirely analogous. Difference is that, despite many cockups and tense situations over the years, with the British and Irish, common sense prevailed eventually and they managed to find common ground. In fact, Tony Blair's government actually dealt with the situation thoroughly admirably and made terrific progress towards peace in the region.
Can't help but feel that that's because both sides in Ireland are white so it was easier for his tiny brain to get round he idea that killing civilians might not be a great idea when seeking to diffuse tensions.
Oh and final point, don't know whether you noticed but the British definitely had air superiority in Norn Iron and I'm exceedingly glad they didn't choose to use it to kill civilians and terrorists indiscriminately.
My response to both posts is similar.
If I said Hammas don't take some of the blame then that is not what I meant. Hammas is labelled as a terrorist organization and for good reason. So I'm not sure why we have to remind ourselves about their role in this since almost everyone agrees their firing of rockets was wrong.
But let me tell you, Hammas can come up with plenty of excuses as to why they are firing these rockets. All of them wouldn't make sense because firing rockets in a civilian dense area is just wrong but this is what we are seeing from Israel. Excuses such as "we're only defending ourselves" etc. I don't know why it's difficult to understand it's plain wrong and you can't justify it.
It is difficult to believe they would drop pamphlets before bombing people. First of all, there were no pamphlets dropped on the beach (that is the only case that we've heard of; could be plenty more). Secondly, I'd like to imagine how it must've been dropping pamphlets to evacuate a whole hospital which was being bombed.
So... once again. I am not and would never defend Hammas. You could argue they 'caused' it (gave Israel a good excuse) but the fact is Hammas aren't even suffering as much as the people who had nothing to do with this.
I think it's fairly important to remind ourselves of the role Hamas play in this because it has a tendency recently to get lost amongst the flak Israel receives, when if we are going to see a resolution to this then both sides need to be brought to account for what they are taking part in and take steps to rectify it.
The real problem amongst all of this is how this can be solved, I'd love to see a scenario where Israel can defend themselves without having to take out these civilians but I'm not sure that's possible with the way Hamas choose to fight their battles. I also don't think if Israel gave into Hamas' demands you would see an end to violence from the Hamas side. It's a clusterfeck that neither side can win, but ultimately the innocent people who live there will be the losers.
Self proclaimed defenders of muslims the filthy scum isis burning palestinian flags. wahabis only use is to degrade islam and create conflicts between muslims.
Disagree, I think. I'd say there are superficial similarities between the two but quite a lot of key differences. In fact I think a lot of people in Ireland wrongly fall into the trap of viewing the Israeli-Palestine conflict through the prism of the troubles.
The fact that pretty much everyone in NI was a British citizen made a massive difference, as did the IRA's methodology. Beyond that, I don't think attacks on the British mainland were ever as frequent as these rocket attacks on Israel. Also, there was never any professed threat to mainland Britain's existence. Plus the troubles only really ever concerned those directly involved and America, whereas the Israeli - Palestinian conflict probably has many more interested parties, all with conflicting agendas.
These differences totally change the practicalities and principles of the two conflicts, I think, as well as the likelihood of lasting peace.
Last edited:
Here is the problem with the way you are thinking.
Israel has a vast superiority in the destructive capability and accuracy of it weapons systems but its targeting is as flawed as its Intel and that isn't in anyway as superior to its firepower. The basic question which Hamas has set is this. Is there anywhere we can put the rockets, where Israel won't fire at them? If the answer is yes then Hamas will put its rockets there. Israel then has to either accept the rocket fire or change its firing protocol. Or to put it another way, all the advanced weapons and all the military power are negated unless Israel fires on every target it sees whatever the collateral consequence.
And then the propaganda starts. There is nothing Israel would like more than a straight fight because it would destroy Hamas in days if it could find them within the civilian population.
There is nothing Hamas would like more than to stand in the open and have a chance of defeating Israel but it doesn’t have that capability.
Animals. Why are they burning Palestinian flags ?
Sometime I hope someone will put all politicians (Muslims/Jews/Christians) in a prison cell locked away in some island. Living without law and order can't be worse then seeing or experiencing these sort of barbaric acts.
FFS now they are gassing them,
ISIS is so zionist. Their "fighters" for instance are treated in Tel Aviv. Puppets financed by USA/Israel to divide and conquer even more.
They make the average american and the stupid european hate the muslim even more, that's about it (we saw it live in this thread with that portuguese american lad who was out of his depth).
Last edited:
Ten days ago, at a security cabinet meeting, Mossad Chief Tamir Pardo outlined a scenario spookily similar to the kidnapping of the three Israeli teens missing since Thursday night.
http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598751?v=9E19E997AD217B5941AFCD9189E2CE76
So from the supposed kidnapping of 3 kids (no revendication from Hamas still or any other group) Israel turned Gaza into a cemetery. I'm really tired of people of still have the cheek to blame Hamas and defend the true terrorists, comparing rockets to white phosphorus. We are witnessing war crimes everyday worthy of an other Nuremberg, women and children being slaughtered with the compliance of UE, USA and even the majority of the Arab puppets (Sissi being the undisputed whore). The silver lining is that more and more people are opening their eyes and turning against Israel. People are sick of Israel playing the victim card since those events in 33-45 that have nothing to do with Palestinians. History shows that a backlash can always happen, and I hope that it will hit them very hard in the future.
Also, I'd like to salute the fearless Palestinian resistants for their courage on the ground against IDF, may god help them. Throwing bombs financed by the american tax payer is one thing, but face-to-face battle and courage is certainly not for those people. In spite of their technological superiority and firepower, Palestinian militants are winning the battle on the grounds against them.
http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598751?v=9E19E997AD217B5941AFCD9189E2CE76
So from the supposed kidnapping of 3 kids (no revendication from Hamas still or any other group) Israel turned Gaza into a cemetery. I'm really tired of people of still have the cheek to blame Hamas and defend the true terrorists, comparing rockets to white phosphorus. We are witnessing war crimes everyday worthy of an other Nuremberg, women and children being slaughtered with the compliance of UE, USA and even the majority of the Arab puppets (Sissi being the undisputed whore). The silver lining is that more and more people are opening their eyes and turning against Israel. People are sick of Israel playing the victim card since those events in 33-45 that have nothing to do with Palestinians. History shows that a backlash can always happen, and I hope that it will hit them very hard in the future.
Also, I'd like to salute the fearless Palestinian resistants for their courage on the ground against IDF, may god help them. Throwing bombs financed by the american tax payer is one thing, but face-to-face battle and courage is certainly not for those people. In spite of their technological superiority and firepower, Palestinian militants are winning the battle on the grounds against them.
Hamas Interior Ministry To Social Media Activists: Always Call The Dead 'Innocent Civilians'; Don't Post Photos Of Rockets Being Fired From Civilian Population Centers
Additionally, the interior ministry prepared a series of suggestions specifically for Palestinian activists who speak to Westerners via social media. The ministryemphasizes that conversations with them should be conducted differently from conversations with other Arabs. It stated:
- "When speaking to the West, you must use political, rational, and persuasive discourse, and avoid emotional discourse aimed at begging for sympathy. There are elements with a conscience in the world; you must maintain contact with them and activate them for the benefit of Palestine. Their role is to shame the occupation and expose its violations.
- "Avoid entering into a political argument with a Westerner aimed at convincing him that the Holocaust is a lie and deceit; instead, equate it with Israel's crimes against Palestinian civilians.
- "The narrative of life vs. the narrative of blood: [When speaking] to an Arab friend, start with the number of martyrs. [But when speaking] to a Western friend, start with the number of wounded and dead. Be sure to humanize the Palestinian suffering. Try to paint a picture of the suffering of the civilians in Gaza and the West Bank during the occupation's operations and its bombings of cities and villages.
- "Do not publish photos of military commanders. Do not mention their names in public, and do not praise their achievements in conversations with foreign friends!"
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8076.htm
Fair play, lads. You're just following your instructions.
Spot on with everything. Great post Hb
Where is the Hamas leadership hiding at the moment, ot the best of your knowledge?
IDF's courage :
From last week: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4547577,00.html
Last week, prior to the ground incursion, Israel was criticized for an aerial bombardment of a rocket launcher in Gaza City's Saja'iyya neighborhood. The IDF said then that the launcher was in an empty structure adjacent to el-Wafa Rehabilitation Hospital. Hours before the strike the hospital received an automated phone message from the IDF saying its staff had to evacuate all patients as they could get hurt in the strike.
But the hospital staff and its director said they could not evacuate the elderly and disabled patients who were having a hard time moving. Hospital director Basman Elashi told Yedioth Ahronoth then that he decided to move the patients to the first floor. According to him, the hospital's top floors were hit.
"The strike was on an unpopulated structure that used to serve as the hospital's geriatric ward," he said.
International media crews rushed to the scene to report the attack to the world. Elashi said he was unfamiliar with the IDF claims a rocket launcher was stashed in the building.
"The army's leaning on bad information here," he said. "I've never seen any installation of a rocket launcher near the hospital."
He denied reports Hamas had demanded him not to evacuate the hospital, but other sources said Hamas sent people into the hospital to serve as human shields.
First bit of sense I've read in a while.
Everyone DOES hate Israel. I think that much is blatantly obvious. I do not condone civilian deaths, not once in this thread have I remotely come close to. But when Hamas uses them as cannon fodder its unavoidable. That is undeniable.
Funny how people forget this is going on. Using kids in a war is downright sickening, despite the "cause". It's also a war crime.
Ahmad Tibi, formerly a political consultant for Yasser Arafat and a staunch anti-Zionist, is currently deputy speaker of the Knesset. I challenge you to come up with a more blatant example of a self-detructing democracy in terms of handing rights to minorities which identify with its enemies. Until you find one you could e-mail him on the Knesset webpage with complaints about various sessions.
I must have missed the stabbing incident, btw.
Recent polls indicate that roughly 50% of the Israeli Arabs are proud to be Israeli. Staggering figure considering the national conflict between the two societies. There is no question that discrimination exists, but it would be naive to think it wouldn't considering the broader picture of the conflict.
Back from Fallujah, Raoul?
From last week: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4547577,00.html
Last week, prior to the ground incursion, Israel was criticized for an aerial bombardment of a rocket launcher in Gaza City's Saja'iyya neighborhood. The IDF said then that the launcher was in an empty structure adjacent to el-Wafa Rehabilitation Hospital. Hours before the strike the hospital received an automated phone message from the IDF saying its staff had to evacuate all patients as they could get hurt in the strike.
But the hospital staff and its director said they could not evacuate the elderly and disabled patients who were having a hard time moving. Hospital director Basman Elashi told Yedioth Ahronoth then that he decided to move the patients to the first floor. According to him, the hospital's top floors were hit.
"The strike was on an unpopulated structure that used to serve as the hospital's geriatric ward," he said.
International media crews rushed to the scene to report the attack to the world. Elashi said he was unfamiliar with the IDF claims a rocket launcher was stashed in the building.
"The army's leaning on bad information here," he said. "I've never seen any installation of a rocket launcher near the hospital."
He denied reports Hamas had demanded him not to evacuate the hospital, but other sources said Hamas sent people into the hospital to serve as human shields.
This is just out of curiosity more than anything else.. Why do you think we should believe that everything reported by trustworthy new sources is a facade, and believe, you, perhaps the most biased person in the thread? Why should we believe that whatever news credible sources posted are all part of a established narrative, and sources you post, probably from an Israeli media, perhaps the least trustworthy source at the moment, are credible?
It is one thing to believe the world is against you, but it is another thing to believe that there aren't good journalists out there in Gaza, may be even jews, and all news coming out there is lies no? Smacks well of hypocrisy and desperation.
Probably in a place you can't see or find him in... That's normally how snipers operate...