Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

KingCantona87 said:
Exactly which is why the hypocrisy of singling out Israel is laughable...
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Which justifies the killing then?

Israel gets more attention because its supposed to be an example of an allegedly civilised nation, as well as being an ally and essentially a proxy of the United States. Its also had serious diplomatic implications in an integral region for the best part of 60 years.

Or we could just go with yours and Fearless' theory that we're all just a bunch of Jew-bashers.
 
Fact of the matter is Dante, if Israel drove around in VW camper vans throwing flowers they'd still get shot and criticised for it.

It is, name me a surrounding country that has the same privileges and laws for it's citizens?? Compare Israel to Syria for example, night and day no? Of course it has had serious diplomatic implications! Every country nearby has tried and failed to wipe it out!


"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."
[Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum]

When your own leadership advises that, then you really are fecked.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Fact of the matter is Dante, if Israel drove around in VW camper vans throwing flowers they'd still get shot and criticised for it.

It is, name me a surrounding country that has the same privileges and laws for it's citizens?? Compare Israel to Syria for example, night and day no? Of course it has had serious diplomatic implications! Every country nearby has tried and failed to wipe it out!


"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."
[Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum]

When your own leadership advises that, then you really are fecked.
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Privileges and laws for a select group of citizens. Institutional racism in Israel is amongst the worst in the world.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Down to the top-notch propaganda that's being spoon fed to everybody by the large anti-Israel body. Most people having a sub-concious disliking of anything remotely associated with being Jewish are more than happy to accept it as the truth without even investigating the bigger picture.
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Wow.
I work in a field where some of the biggest contributions are from Arthur Kornberg, Marshall Nirenberg, Rosalind Franklin and Frederick Sanger.
My favourite comedian is Larry David, and I love Seinfeld and Curb. I love Annie Hall, made by Woody Allen. Also Manhattan. Both films don't hide the Jewish-ness of their characters.
My favourite novel is Catch-22, by Joseph Heller. I like Jonathan Safran Foer.
I think Noam Chomsky is a great thinker. I respect Peter Singer.

I live in a country where the population of Jews must be around (literally) 1 in a million or 1 in 100,000. The only place I had heard about Jews in school was in relation the the Holocaust and Anne Frank. The only time they are in our media (as defined by their Jew-ness as opposed to just being in the news) is with respect to Israel or the Holocaust.


Yet the reason I'm anti Israel is my sub-conscious disliking of 'anything remotely associated with being Jewish'?
Incidentally an anti-Israel Jew, Chomsky, would be quite curious about your line of thinking, with its 'spoon-fed propaganda' and 'sub-conscious dislike' ;)
 
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How come Arabs serve in the Knesset then? Surely if Israel was "institutionally racist" this wouldn't be the case?

Arabs are granted full civil rights under Israeli law, which forbids discrimination on the basis of race, creed, or sex. Arabs take part fully in Israeli society and government. Arab citizens of Israel vote in national elections, have representatives in the Israeli Parliament, sit on the Israeli courts and on the Israeli Supreme Court benches, and serve as tenured professors teaching in Israeli colleges and universities. The Arab citizens of Israel have more rights, and enjoy more freedom, education, and economic opportunity than the Arabs of any Arab state. Feel free to prove me wrong :)

@berbatrick Chomsky has every right to be anti-israeli. I'm sure he would and I reckon he'd be a fascinating person to debate with.
 
KingCantona87 said:
How come Arabs serve in the Knesset then? Surely if Israel was "institutionally racist" this wouldn't be the case?

Arabs are granted full civil rights under Israeli law, which forbids discrimination on the basis of race, creed, or sex. Arabs take part fully in Israeli society and government. Arab citizens of Israel vote in national elections, have representatives in the Israeli Parliament, sit on the Israeli courts and on the Israeli Supreme Court benches, and serve as tenured professors teaching in Israeli colleges and universities. The Arab citizens of Israel have more rights, and enjoy more freedom, education, and economic opportunity than the Arabs of any Arab state. Feel free to prove me wrong :)
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That sounds all utopian on paper but that's hardly the reality on the ground. Watch a Knesset session and see how the Arab members are treated, heck Abbas Zakour, an Arab knesset member was even stabbed. The country is ripe with racism towards Arabs - heck 50% of the population do not believe Arab Israelis should be entitled to equal rights.

KingCantona87 said:
Chomsky has every right to be anti-israeli. I'm sure he would and I reckon he'd be a fascinating person to debate with.
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But does his critcism to Israel source from a sub-conscious disdain of all things Jewish?



KingCantona87 said:
Also the Egyptian border of Gaza has been closed for a long time, where is the widespread condemnation for Egypt?
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I actually agree with you here. Egypt's crony government doesn't get enough condemnation.
 
KingCantona87 said:
@berbatrick Chomsky has every right to be anti-israeli. I'm sure he would and I reckon he'd be a fascinating person to debate with.
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That doesn't answer why he is anti Israel or, rather, why I am, since I seem to like other Jewish things, which according to you seems to be the only reason to be anti Israel.
 
KingCantona87 said:
It is by far the largest reason. Of course any valid criticisms of Israel and it's own policies are fine as long as you can back them up with facts and figures.

Physically or verbally attacking Jewish institutions, such as synagogues or cemeteries (e.g. in Paris), as a means of protesting against Israel pretty much is.

Another thing that irks me personally is the rank hypocrisy of people being so quick to jump on the anti-Israel bandwagon when there are atrocities going on in places close to Israel, like the Sudan and Syria..... One thing I'm fairly certain about through my own experiences on this subject is that if Israel wasn't a "Jewish" state would anyone give a feck like they do now? Probably not...
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Where did I say that is the only reason to be Anti-Israel? I said most people who criticise Israel are, not all. Please if you're going to attempt to twist my words to suit your own means, at least do it properly :) Otherwise you just look foolish.
 
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Uzz said:
I checked the news, and the Egyptians aren't murdering Palestinian kids playing football on a beach.
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No because Gaza aren't firing rockets at them funnily enough.... Wonder what would happen if they were?

Whilst it is a tragic event, what kind of parents let their kids play on the beach knowing full well it could well get bombed?
 
KingCantona87 said:
No because Gaza aren't firing rockets at them funnily enough.... Wonder what would happen if they were?

Whilst it is a tragic event, what kind of parents let their kids play on the beach knowing full well it could well get bombed?
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Yep-it's the parents fault that the kids were murdered. Let's absolve Israel of all blame.

You really are a clueless individual. I've read some of your 'views' on this thread and your foolishness knows no boundary.
 
Uzz said:
Yep-it's the parents fault that the kids were murdered. Let's absolve Israel of all blame.

You really are a clueless individual. I've read some of your 'views' on this thread and your foolishness knows no boundary.
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So you can't validly retort any of my points so you resort to insulting me. Well done mate. Give yourself a huge pat on the back. Took guts to do that.
 
KingCantona87 said:
No because Gaza aren't firing rockets at them funnily enough.... Wonder what would happen if they were?

Whilst it is a tragic event, what kind of parents let their kids play on the beach knowing full well it could well get bombed?
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Maybe they weighed up the pros and cons and thought their children stood a better chance of survival than being "bombed" in their own homes.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Maybe they were promised martyrdom? We will never truly know.
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Nah, I think they were just children enjoying a picnic with their family on a beach, like millions of children do on daily basis.
Unfortunately, for them though a 155mm Israeli land-based artillery shell killed them.
 
KingCantona87 said:
No because Gaza aren't firing rockets at them funnily enough.... Wonder what would happen if they were?

Whilst it is a tragic event, what kind of parents let their kids play on the beach knowing full well it could well get bombed?
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You're right. They should've hidden in a hospital.

Oh wait..
 
Those of you claiming Israel doesn't target civilians.

Perhaps footage of a sniper finishing off a wounded civilian might put to bed that silly notion:



(Watch from 2:20 onwards)


The civilian or 'terrorist' in this video was a man looking for his family amidst the chaotic bombing. A brave IDF sniper wounded him, then proceeded to finish him off to make sure the job was done. Kol ha Kavod.

If there's anything anything more pinpoint or specific than a sniper then I don't know what it is.
 
KingCantona87 said:
So your saying genocide is a "domestic issue"....? I merely cited those two countries as an example of how people focus their energies on Israel when there are far more worse things happening elsewhere in the world. Such is people's somewhat strange fixation on Israel and it's actions.
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There are no obvious good solutions in Iraq or Syria although not destabilising the brutal dictatorships would have been a solid bet. In Israel there is a much clearer chasm of inequality and , you know, if the highly educated and well resourced side actually made some vague effort and sacrifice to try to get along with the people they have displaced/are displacing, then that might even give them the moral high ground. FFS when your regime makes Hamas look like the good guys you know you've really fecked up.
 
Kaos said:
Those of you claiming Israel doesn't target civilians.

Perhaps footage of a sniper finishing off a wounded civilian might put to bed that silly notion:



(Watch from 2:20 onwards)

If there's anything anything more pinpoint or specific than a sniper then I don't know what it is.
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There's obviously a difference between a rogue individual and military policy. That tends to happen in all wars - individuals, because they are caught up in the moment get overzealous, and should rightly be prosecuted if there's evidence they've broken the rules.
 
KingCantona87 said:
So your saying genocide is a "domestic issue"....? I merely cited those two countries as an example of how people focus their energies on Israel when there are far more worse things happening elsewhere in the world. Such is people's somewhat strange fixation on Israel and it's actions.
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Syria in particular is an interesting one. Very little outrage from the resident anti-Israel brigade on that one.
 
Raoul said:
There's obviously a difference between a rogue individual and military policy. That tends to happen in all wars - individuals, because they are caught up in the moment get overzealous, and should rightly be prosecuted if there's evidence they've broken the rules.
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The trouble is, these 'rogue' events don't happen once every blue-moon. See when you lose count of these 'one-offs' it suggests the problem is more systemic. How are we to know if his commanding officer hadn't issued him a shoot-to-kill order on anyone they encounter?

Today we had a hospital directly targetted, a couple days ago it was children massacred on a beach. Beginning to think there a lot of bad apples in the IDF...
 
Raoul said:
Syria in particular is an interesting one. Very little outrage from the resident anti-Israel brigade on that one.
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Considering both sides appear to be brutally murdering each other in vast swathes using all kinds of inhuman and illegal means I would say it's not terribly surprising. Not exactly a moral victor is there.
 
Kaos said:
Those of you claiming Israel doesn't target civilians.

Perhaps footage of a sniper finishing off a wounded civilian might put to bed that silly notion:



(Watch from 2:20 onwards)


The civilian or 'terrorist' in this video was a man looking for his family amidst the chaotic bombing. A brave IDF sniper wounded him, then proceeded to finish him off to make sure the job was done. Kol ha Kavod.

If there's anything anything more pinpoint or specific than a sniper then I don't know what it is.
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I couldn't watch the whole thing listening to that guy cry for his loved ones but for anyone who views this it should be pretty fecking clear why people in Gaza would be driven to extremism. If you don't get it from seeing this you never will.
 
KingCantona87 said:
No because Gaza aren't firing rockets at them funnily enough.... Wonder what would happen if they were?

Whilst it is a tragic event, what kind of parents let their kids play on the beach knowing full well it could well get bombed?
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No rockets being fired because there's no invasion going on.
 
TwoSheds said:
Considering both sides appear to be brutally murdering each other in vast swathes using all kinds of inhuman and illegal means I would say it's not terribly surprising. Not exactly a moral victor is there.
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This case wouldn't have been too different had Israel not strengthened themselves to world class levels.
 
KingCantona87 said:
I will agree to disagree on that one and here is why.

The tired narrative advanced by uninformed observers, the mainstream media and the Human rights cult about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict often includes the flippant cliché that Gaza is an “open air prison” — and that Israel is to blame.

Such lazy characterizations of the situation in Gaza are simply fictitious.

First, Gaza is ruled by Hamas, a terrorist group that is sworn to Israel and the Jews destruction. Rockets fired from the strip routinely strike southern Israel. So, is it really difficult to comprehend why the IDF can’t allow imports into Gaza without first inspecting the contents to ensure that there aren’t weapons?

Further, not only is there no “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza but, in certain areas of the territory, the economy is booming. Every day, the IDF transfers thousands of tons of goods and gas into Gaza, it even provides it's electricity and products delivered to Palestinian merchants and international organizations such as UNRWA.

Hamas sense of nihilism is so strong that their own rockets took out their own power, which Israel repaired. The bastards Israel, how dare they repair the power!
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You are fed and housed in prison, it still doesn't mean you have freedom
 
Kaos said:
Those of you claiming Israel doesn't target civilians.

Perhaps footage of a sniper finishing off a wounded civilian might put to bed that silly notion:



(Watch from 2:20 onwards)


The civilian or 'terrorist' in this video was a man looking for his family amidst the chaotic bombing. A brave IDF sniper wounded him, then proceeded to finish him off to make sure the job was done. Kol ha Kavod.

If there's anything anything more pinpoint or specific than a sniper then I don't know what it is.
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Looks fake to me I didn't see any blood and if was a sniper then was a bad one - 3 shots.
 
Raoul said:
There's obviously a difference between a rogue individual and military policy. That tends to happen in all wars - individuals, because they are caught up in the moment get overzealous, and should rightly be prosecuted if there's evidence they've broken the rules.
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I think that's a fair point, the Americans and British armies in recent conflicts haven't exactly covered themselves in glory on the civilian front. The civilian casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq have been horrendous.
 
Kaos said:
Thanks for that riveting clarification.
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If he was shot you would see the impact and not sure about Israel but normally the sniper rifles are of larger caliber and I didn't see anything that shows he was really shot. But I do believe some Israelis target civilians after all all armies have the odd criminal.
 
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