Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

holyland red said:
So Ban Ki-Moon and Kofi Annan both think the UN is biased against Israel. That makes it two opinions. Pretty important opinions on the matter too.
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Even if I agree, the UN has an agenda against Israel, the number of civilian deaths are from multiple sources. Everyone must have an agenda against Israel then??

I mean, why would a pro- Palestine or an anti- Israel U.N let this war go so far. If they are so Biased, they could have taken actions against Israel, can they not?? And as Kaos said, Israel's agenda is backed up by U.S which gives them a significant leverage.
 
bleedred said:
Even if I agree, the UN has an agenda against Israel, the number of civilian deaths are from multiple sources. Everyone must have an agenda against Israel then??

I mean, why would a pro- Palestine or an anti- Israel U.N let this war go so far. If they are so Biased, they could have taken actions against Israel, can they not?? And as Kaos said, Israel's agenda is backed up by U.S which gives them a significant leverage.
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UN and action. There's a joke.
 
I think if it wasn't for Religion it would be something else though Fearless. My cow is not as fat as your cow now you must die etc. Human nature sucks.
 
KingCantona87 said:
The displaced Palestinians were aggrieved because the Arab Nations intent on wiping Israel out in 1948 promised victory, yet when they were beaten refused to let most of them back in. Definitely not Israel's fault in that regard.
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Had there been no resistance to this mass immigration (i.e. a war) then millions of Palestinians would have been displaced to make way for the colonisers. Either way the Palestinians would have got a raw deal.

KingCantona87 said:
Gaza being under siege and subsequently being raised is down to Hamas and their stupid tactics. All this talk of it being down to desperation and starvation is utter nonsense as well. Whilst the Palestinians receive a large sum of money in aid, Hamas is intent on spending it on the destruction of Israel rather than the advancement of it's people. They are also 8th place in world overweight population rankings. How can this be so if they are on the brink of starvation and death? The Hamas leadership are all sat in their manors in Qatar and the like using their own people as cannon fodder. I find that absolutely shocking and yet most of the world seems to focus on Israel.
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Gaza was under siege the second the Palestinians had the audacity to elect Hamas. So Israeli decided they'd be collectively punished for it. Poverty levels at Gaza are at around 60-70%, yes Hamas are not exactly helping the situation but ironically they're thriving on the back of Israel's blockade.





KingCantona87 said:
The argument that Israel is using disproportionate levels of force is stupid as well. Stop firing the fecking rockets then this would all stop, it is that straight forward.
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I posed a question earlier in the thread asking if this would really all stop if Hamas stopped firing rockets. How would you explain the death of the Palestinian boy shot dead back in May and the hundreds killed outside of a Gaza-Israel conflict? How would you also explain the fact that in 79% of tic-for-tac skirmishes its the Israelis who kill first?
 
Kaos said:
14 of 15 member UN states (including anti-Semitic Britain and Jew-hating France) support resolutions condemning illegal settlements. The US nullify every one of those resolutions with their vetoes. You're not getting a rough deal.
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We're doing fine in the UNSC. The GA and the Human Rights committee are a disgrace. Or a joke. Or both.
 
bleedred said:
Even if I agree, the UN has an agenda against Israel, the number of civilian deaths are from multiple sources. Everyone must have an agenda against Israel then??

I mean, why would a pro- Palestine or an anti- Israel U.N let this war go so far. If they are so Biased, they could have taken actions against Israel, can they not?? And as Kaos said, Israel's agenda is backed up by U.S which gives them a significant leverage.
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Even? If? The people on top of the pyramid admitted it.
 
How do you explain the deaths of those 3 Israeli teens? In no way am I condoning those actions of either party but every army has bad apples in their bunch. To claim the whole of the Israeli army behaves in that manner is completely uncalled for, just as it is completely wrong to assume all American soldiers behave in the same way as those who abused prisoners in Iraq for instance.

Israel closed the Erez crossing because of the constant acts of terror from individuals coming through from Gaza itself. Some of the practices of a small minority of IDF soldiers there are questionable. Has there been any major terrorist atrocities since it was locked down? I'd say it is an effective checkpoint.

Until the desire of making things better for themselves overcomes the desire of destroying every last Jew and Israeli on the planet then there will be no hope. Hence my head banging on the wall analogy that I posted earlier.
 
holyland red said:
Even? If? The people on top of the pyramid admitted it.
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As I said, Its irrelevant because, even if you think UN has an agenda against Israel, Everyone else is biased as well???. I mean, all these images we see everyday from various news agencies must be forged and all of them are anti- Semitic and pro- Palestinian, right?.
 
Kaos said:
H
I posed a question earlier in the thread asking if this would really all stop if Hamas stopped firing rockets. How would you explain the death of the Palestinian boy shot dead back in May and the hundreds killed outside of a Gaza-Israel conflict? How would you also explain the fact that in 79% of tic-for-tac skirmishes its the Israelis who kill first?
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Again your point is flawed as it really is kill or be killed so I fail to see how it matters who kills who first?
 
bleedred said:
As I said, Its irrelevant because, even if you think UN has an agenda against Israel, Everyone else is biased as well???. I mean, all these images we see everyday from various news agencies must be forged and all of them are anti- Semitic and pro- Palestinian, right?.
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Youtube fake Palestinian videos. thank me later
 
bleedred said:
So, BBC, AFP, Reuters are fake now??
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Where did I say this?

Getting rather defensive aren't we. The Palestinian movement has been known to "borrow" materials from the crisis in Syria to further their cause in the attempt to win hearts and minds. So forgive me if I think they are past masters at manipulating news footage to suit their aims.
 
Kaos said:
So the unarmed Palestinian kid shot dead by Israeli soldiers back in May then - was that a kill or be killed situation?
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I'm pretty sure that soldier was disciplined?

No this definitely wrong, never said it wasn't. But we could sit here all night listing the atrocities committed by BOTH parties in 70+ years. Nobody has the right to claim the moral high ground. All I'm saying is in this recent bout of trouble, Hamas are in the wrong.
 
KingCantona87 said:
No this definitely wrong, never said it wasn't. But we could sit here all night listing the atrocities committed by BOTH parties in 70+ years. Nobody has the right to claim the moral high ground. All I'm saying is in this recent bout of trouble, Hamas are in the wrong.
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You made the claim that if Hamas were to stop firing rockets then Palestinian innocents would stop getting killed - "it's as simple as that". Empirical evidence has proven otherwise.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Where did I say this?

Getting rather defensive aren't we. The Palestinian movement has been known to "borrow" materials from the crisis in Syria to further their cause in the attempt to win hearts and minds. So forgive me if I think they are past masters at manipulating news footage to suit their aims.
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I was responding to HR who said, he keeps insisting not many civilians are being killed and data are manipulated. It was your fault running into a conversation without knowing the gist of it.
 
Kaos said:
You made the claim that if Hamas were to stop firing rockets then Palestinian innocents would stop getting killed - "it's as simple as that". Empirical evidence has proven otherwise.
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In this round of trouble it is as simple as that. Would Israel be bombing the shit out of Gaza if they weren't firing rockets?
 
bleedred said:
I was responding to HR who said, he keeps insisting not many civilians are being killed and data are manipulated. It was your fault running into a conversation without knowing the gist of it.
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I knew the full gist of the conversation it is quite easy to get it whenever a thread about Israel is created. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that said data WAS being manipulated.
 
KingCantona87 said:
I knew the full gist of the conversation it is quite easy to get it whenever a thread about Israel is created. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that said data WAS being manipulated.
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Again, that's where I cited the authenticity of the images and reports from reputed sources. Could they be manipulated as well??.. All of them are in on the agenda, right??
 
Other than rogue elements of the IDF and Police forces I would say they are treated worse by their own leadership than Israel. How come Palestinians (I personally know plenty) who moved to Israel for work reasons or other valid reasons are totally happy in Israel if what you're saying is completely widespread?

bleedred, if you're perfectly happy to take everything you see and hear on the news at face value and as the truth without questioning the true nature of what's going on that is fine by me.
 
KingCantona87 said:
Other than rogue elements of the IDF and Police forces I would say they are treated worse by their own leadership than Israel. How come Palestinians (I personally know plenty) who moved to Israel for work reasons or other valid reasons are totally happy in Israel if what you're saying is completely widespread?
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Lots of Albanians immigrate to Greece to find work despite there being widespread racism and police brutality against many of those Albanians. The reason they do this tends to be because they want to house their children, give them an education, feed them and so on which they might not be able to do in Albania. If someone was go on and claim that because their quality of life is worse in Albania it excuses Greece's behavior I would find it outrageous. Similarly, I think it's outrageous to claim Israel treating some Palestinians better than Hamas does means that Israels mistreatment of Palestinians is exaggerated. Given the option, I think those Palestinians would rather live in a state that isn't openly racist towards them.

KingCantona87 said:
It doesn't excuse what Hamas is doing either, which is my point as well.
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The way you're putting your arguments makes it seem like you're fine with what Isreal is doing though. When it's just a horrible situation for everyone involved and none more so than the civilians in Gaza who are at the receiving end of most the punishment.
 
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I am against war and I hope that this issue is sorted as quickly and fair as possible

However I believe that the Jews should have a state of their own. My religion tells me that its Israel and history had taught me that whenever the Jews were stateless they were vulnerable and butchered. Hitler was just one of an endless list.

I also find it very uncomfortable to support a country whose currently lead by a terrorist group.
 
KingCantona87 said:
In this round of trouble it is as simple as that. Would Israel be bombing the shit out of Gaza if they weren't firing rockets?
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Actually, it does carry out frequent attacks on Gaza without provocation and has been known to violate quite a few ceasefires. The recent Gaza rocket attacks has only incensed them to start randomly shelling dense parts of the city.

And we shouldn't marginalise this as 'this round of trouble', this is a snapshot of a much broader picture.
 
Silva said:
The way you're putting your arguments makes it seem like you're fine with what Isreal is doing though. When it's just a horrible situation for everyone involved and none more so than the civilians in Gaza who are at the receiving end at most the punishment.
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I think amongst all of the shit slinging between both side this is the saddest part, that the people in Gaza have been let down by both sides. Israel seem hell bent on understandably protecting itself, yet showing no regard to the poor people living in Gaza and Hamas clearly couldn't care less about the harm it puts its apparent own citizens in the way of. Very sad.
 
Snowjoe said:
I think amongst all of the shit slinging between both side this is the saddest part, that the people in Gaza have been let down by both sides. Israel seem hell bent on understandably protecting itself, yet showing no regard to the poor people living in Gaza and Hamas clearly couldn't care less about the harm it puts its apparent own citizens in the way of. Very sad.
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Spot on.

I'm not fine with Israel taking military action but what other choice does it have? It can't let itself be bombed.
 
Mozza said:
Equaly the peope of Gaza wont stay locked in a prison forever
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I will agree to disagree on that one and here is why.

The tired narrative advanced by uninformed observers, the mainstream media and the Human rights cult about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict often includes the flippant cliché that Gaza is an “open air prison” — and that Israel is to blame.

Such lazy characterizations of the situation in Gaza are simply fictitious.

First, Gaza is ruled by Hamas, a terrorist group that is sworn to Israel and the Jews destruction. Rockets fired from the strip routinely strike southern Israel. So, is it really difficult to comprehend why the IDF can’t allow imports into Gaza without first inspecting the contents to ensure that there aren’t weapons?

Further, not only is there no “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza but, in certain areas of the territory, the economy is booming. Every day, the IDF transfers thousands of tons of goods and gas into Gaza, it even provides it's electricity and products delivered to Palestinian merchants and international organizations such as UNRWA.

Hamas sense of nihilism is so strong that their own rockets took out their own power, which Israel repaired. The bastards Israel, how dare they repair the power!
 
bleedred said:
I was responding to HR who said, he keeps insisting not many civilians are being killed and data are manipulated. It was your fault running into a conversation without knowing the gist of it.
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Can you quote any of my posts suggesting that?
 
Kaos said:
Actually, it does carry out frequent attacks on Gaza without provocation and has been known to violate quite a few ceasefires. The recent Gaza rocket attacks has only incensed them to start randomly shelling dense parts of the city.

And we shouldn't marginalise this as 'this round of trouble', this is a snapshot of a much broader picture.
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You're absolutely wrong here. The fact mortar and rocket fire on Israel's south don't get a mention in world media may lead you to think that Israel "does carry out frequent attacks on Gaza without provocation". This has been going on for 15 years now.

I agree that the picture is broader. As I said in an earlier post, it is becoming apparent the the picture is broader than many were willing to admit until very recently. Israel has been fighting its war of independence for 66 years now. This is not a war about borders. It's about Israel's existence.
 
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