Its all about the settlements, Israel can not make a peace deal as long as it's seeking to expand its territory
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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Its all about the settlements, Israel can not make a peace deal as long as it's seeking to expand its territory
Does Israel stop arming itself in periods of truce? Just another excuse to avoid making peace
Last time I checked, Israel is in potential danger from different angles. How many countries has Hamas had wars with, or been threatened by?
The comparison astounds me. You're totally clueless with regards to our reality. If Israel disarms itself now, it won't exist tomorrow. Of course we'll keep arming ourselves.
Hamas arming itself is not an excuse to avoid making peace. That in itself has nothing to do with it. It's more to do with leaders from both sides (Abbas from the Fatah side) not having the courage to make big decision.
Even now a two state solution is nearly impossible. Their is nothing left on the map for Palestine. The West bank is 42% controlled by Jewish settlements. Half a million Israeli settlers are living over the green line.
Remember holyland red has maintained in the past that the Israeli army don't target civilians (perhaps he doesn't anymore. If that's the case then fair enough). There's a massive bias on his end. Perhaps if we were in his position then our attitude would be similar.
Back to the point: anyone with a shred of knowledge of the conflict would know that Israel target civilians. One well-known example is when they launched a one-tonne bomb at a crowded apartment complex in Gaza City in 2002 killing 9 children in the process. The government apologised claiming their target was an Hamas operative (whom they killed in the attack).
Try a simple thought experiment: imagine Hamas blew up a bus in Israel then maintained their target was a government minister and they weren't expecting so many to be killed. The global reaction would be to treat that with the ridicule it deserves. It's patently bullshit.
If Hamas are terrorists and violators of human rights (which is true) then Israel are too. Or rather, Israel and their best buds, the U.S.
Hamas have a right to arm themselves just as Israel does.
Abbas has never had the opportunity to make a big decision, Israel doesn't want peace so wont make a realistic offer
Pretty simple point but some people knowingly want to ignore it.
I never said Israel need to disarm themselves, Hamas have as much right to arm themselves as Israel
We should all just calm down and have a good look at this:
http://izismile.com/2013/06/04/israeli_defense_force_girls_gone_wild_72_pics.html
http://izismile.com/2013/06/04/israeli_defense_force_girls_gone_wild_72_pics.html
I wasn't pinpointing you but that is one point all those who are portraying Israel evil here are missing. As I said few pages ago, Israel is not a saintly party here and they too need to set few things right from their side but reality and peace initiatives for them, given the geography and who all surround them, are not as easy as some think they are.
Another artificial road block for Israel, as we've been through before recognition of Israel will come with a peace deal, as happend when they negotiated peace with Egypt
There are always some version as to what Abbas could or could not do. I'll leave it at that...
As for Hamas, being a terrorist group and all that, I don't accept their 'right' to arm themselves. But even if they do, we have every right to blow them sky high when they use those arms to threaten civilians while hiding behind their own.
What could he do, go on?
I get what you mean in your first paragraph, but the bolded part is exactly the point I am trying to make. In order for this whole thing to work you cannot have anything less than democracy. A Sharia based Islamic Republic of some sorts is always going to be deficient. This is why the change must come from within and basically what I'm advocating here is a needed influx of secularism, or any other progressive thinking into the 'Islamic thought'- certainly to that extent in which a separation of 'religion and church' can potentially be considered a framework upon which a political system, incl. foreign policy, etc. can be built. Obviously, in this respect Hamas has achieved absolutely nothing. They've just failed its own people, badly.
Hamas tried democracy, what they got when they won was a western backed coup that split the West Bank from Gaza. Every time they've reconciled their differences with Fatah Israel tries its hardest to blow apart the deal
Sigh. I'd really rather not go into those discussions. They are pointless, it doesn't matter. I accept Israel as being greatly responsible.
Not saints? I'm fed up with the bias here.
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You can't be serious. What exactly have they tried?
Clutching at straws here, much of the Syrian insurgency is composed of foreign jihadists funded by Wahabi elements from the Gulf Arab states. As is the case with ISIS in Iraq. There are no foreign fighters in Palestine.
And before the foreigners came in, it was just Syrians wanting more freedoms, which dictators apparently find annoying enough to start massacring their own people with chemical weapons and barrel bombs.
Assad didn't exactly dispel initial mobs using chemical weaponry did he. Besides that's more of an American forte, next time you're down in Iraq go visit a Fallujah hospital and gasp in your country's wonderful work with the birth defects they've gifted the children there.
Who cares. He still used them to kill Syrians. A regime you gleefully support.
Funny enough I agree with more or less all of that. Trouble is its Israeli policy which is inclining them to extremist elements at the expense of adopting a more secular front. Its going to be hard convincing the Palestinians to shun undesirables like Hamas while they remain under siege in Gaza, and their brethren in the West Bank are facing diaspora status down to illegal settlement programs.
A claim which has never been confirmed and yet continues to be clutched on by his opponents despite more compelling evidence of the rebels being implicated in their use.
But again, a rich accusation considering the US and her allies being most fond of their use in the last decade or so.
Not only did he use them, he continued using them. So before you wax poetic about the plight of Palestinians, you should first consider your disgraceful support for a regime that has murdered more of its own citizens over the past three years than the amount of Palestinians who have been killed over the course of many decades.
Sorry about that folks - back to Israel-Palestine. 
Throwing Fatah people off the Gaza rooftops was their attempt at democracy, wasn't it?
I condemn that act, all part of the fall out from the Western and Israeli backed coup attempted by Fatah after Hamas won the election
Lets discuss this in the Syria thread shall we?
Chapter two in The History of Hamas Democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
Chapter three, another round of elections, is still to be written.
Excuse me, but the Elections were not for Palestinian presidency. To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinian Parliament is responsible for the president, who is also commander in chief of the armed forces. The 2007 coup in Gaza was a Hamas coup against a Fatah president. In the course of that coup they threw their Fatah brothers off rooftops, shooting others in the knees. Iraq/Syria-style stuff. Families of Fatah officials fled to border crossings to seek help from the neighbouring apartheid state.
Death toll:
Palestinians - 352 (circa 75% civilians)
Israelis - 7 (2 civilians)
I'd say that's a pretty fair and proportionate response. Hamas must be world class at this whole human shields thing.
Palestinians - 352 (circa 75% civilians)
Israelis - 7 (2 civilians)
I'd say that's a pretty fair and proportionate response. Hamas must be world class at this whole human shields thing.
You must have missed the reports from the ground implicating the mobs.
We get different figures here. There are reports of 130 dead enemy combatants over the last 48h, so either the numbers on the Palestinian side are not updated, or the rest can't make 75% of the total. And that's without counting the terrorist killed in the aerial campaign that preceeded the ground invasion.
No question there is a heavy death toll among Gaza civilians, but the contest here of who quotes the highest figure is telling.
The United Nations said it was 'at least 74%'.
And what exactly is it 'telling' of?
The "UN" in Gaza are also the people who found rockets in schools and "handed them to the relevant Palestinian officials". I reckon that by now you can find debris from those rockets around Israel. Many of the UN officials in Gaza are local Palestinians, who despite holding UN badges are far from neutral in this conflict (who could blame them) and have an obvious interest in inflating figures of civilian casualties.
The snide comment you chose to add to your original post answers your question here.
Massacre in Shujaiyeh, Gaza
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=699327340144170&id=119605611449682
Tragic. [very graphic]
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=699327340144170&id=119605611449682
Tragic. [very graphic]
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza
East Jerusalem
Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza (
), endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.
Immediately after discovery, the Agency informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident.
UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures.
Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.
East Jerusalem
Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza (
), endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.Immediately after discovery, the Agency informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident.
UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures.
Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.