Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

The Man Himself said:
OK then keep up with your conspiracy theories because someone on this site, who is more close to ground reality from Israel point of view doesn't share your views. I am not interested to get involved in it further.
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I did not say HR was one, but have a look at this.

Israeli students are paid thousands of dollars by their government to post pro-israeli propaganda on sites like Reddit/facebook.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.541142

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-students-social-media/2651715/

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...nts-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook

http://www.globalresearch.ca/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-pro-israeli-propaganda/5391610
 
 
IhabX7 said:
Then re-read my first post.
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I know you talked about percentages but it is still not not a valid argument and it is not fair to accuse someone like that because you don't agree with his views.
 
 
Mihajlovic said:
Hear, o Israel, the rockets will do you no harm, ignore the sirens and take your chances.
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Yep. Just accept this as the norm - a threat of rockets towards most of Israel, from the south to Jerusalem to Tel Aviv and near Haifa. That's how we're supposed to live. And that's OK, because for the most part, people won't die. They could be injured, they could suffer psychological damage, kids will grow in fear, property will be destroyed, economy will be hugely affected - small businesses and workes in the southern part are already in big trouble after the last few weeks - tourism will be hugely affected. But that's OK, we're expected to live like this.

What of the poor people in Gaza? Well, I feel for them. But Israel has to take actions in order to protect itself and its people first. Gaza has Hamas, they voted Hamas a few years ago. Let Hamas take care of them. And if Hamas chooses not to take care of them but take care of itself and its own, partly by sitting within the uninvolved, thus telling Israel our options are to do nothing or take the risk of hurting innocent people, they are not leaving us with much choice. Because doing nothing is NOT an option. And once you set your missiles on target, mistakes can be made. And once Hamas sits within the uninvolved, innocent people will die even without a mistake being made at all.
 
I'm curious why people think holylands view that hamas are committing war crimes is funny? Are they not firing rockets without attempting to hit military targets? Seems to me both sides need to take a close look at themselves.


Interesting stat the other day. The rockets hamas use are typically home made and cost around $50 to make. The anti-missile rockets being used run at $100,000 a pop and they typically use 2 per missile. That could get quite costly.
 
It is costly, though apparently the new Dome systems only send one rocket now. People don't care about Hamas's rockets because our defensive capabilities can limit the amount of damage and deaths. So it's like it doesn't matter.
 
penalty snot said:
Take everything he says with a pinch of salt. His opinion is so slanted it's unreal.

The objective observer, neutral to both sides, can see the obvious, but he dismisses it as biased knowledge.
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Aye, He just dismissed a Human rights watch report as biased for calling 80% civilian casualties.
 
The fact that Hamas is more than willing to fire rockets that have a material chance of falling within Gaza tells me exactly how much (or rather how little) they care about the people of Gaza.

It genuinely comes across that people would be more likely to accept Israel's actions if the Iron Dome didn't exist and more Israelis were killed. If this is the case, then who is to say Hamas will not amass enough rockets so that the Iron Dome cannot intercept all of them? Israel needs to get rid of the threat before it reaches such levels.
 
Traub said:
The fact that Hamas is more than willing to fire rockets that have a material chance of falling within Gaza tells me exactly how much (or rather how little) they care about the people of Gaza.

It genuinely comes across that people would be more likely to accept Israel's actions if the Iron Dome didn't exist and more Israelis were killed. If this is the case, then who is to say Hamas will not amass enough rockets so that the Iron Dome cannot intercept all of them? Israel needs to get rid of the threat before it reaches such levels.
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Exactly. A few years ago, Hamas could only hit the area near the Gaza strip with Qassam rockets. Now they can nearly reach Haifa with bigger, more dangerous rockets. Give them a few more years, and now that they have the distance they want they could work on something else - bigger and more dangerous rockets (like Hezbollah has), or just having enough rockets so that we'll need more and more Iron Dome systems. It'll be never ending - until we end this, period.

I doubt we will, though. I can't see Israel going on a full scale ground invasion and occupying Gaza again for a while, which is the only way to end the threat.
 
Traub said:
The fact that Hamas is more than willing to fire rockets that have a material chance of falling within Gaza tells me exactly how much (or rather how little) they care about the people of Gaza.

It genuinely comes across that people would be more likely to accept Israel's actions if the Iron Dome didn't exist and more Israelis were killed. If this is the case, then who is to say Hamas will not amass enough rockets so that the Iron Dome cannot intercept all of them? Israel needs to get rid of the threat before it reaches such levels.
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It's not that, though, is it? The same people showing their frustration at the Iron Dome capabilities are the ones that accused Israel of war crimes and the use of disproportionate force when it was attacked from Lebanon in 2006. There was no Iron Dome back then, and dozens of Israeli civilians were killed.

Some folk just can not accept Israel defending itself. Thankfully, most Israelis have realized that and accept that we just have to carry the burden of not being so popular. Beats getting killed in order to win some empathy.
 
Amir said:
Exactly. A few years ago, Hamas could only hit the area near the Gaza strip with Qassam rockets. Now they can nearly reach Haifa with bigger, more dangerous rockets. Give them a few more years, and now that they have the distance they want they could work on something else - bigger and more dangerous rockets (like Hezbollah has), or just having enough rockets so that we'll need more and more Iron Dome systems. It'll be never ending - until we end this, period.

I doubt we will, though. I can't see Israel going on a full scale ground invasion and occupying Gaza again for a while, which is the only way to end the threat.
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The threat can never be removed. Even if the IDF takes control over Gaza. Israel can not guarantee Islamic loons don't get their hands on long-range missiles. be it Hamas, Hizballah or some other savages in Syria or Sinai. However, Iron Dome and Magic Wand systems will cover the entire Israeli territory in the near future, and minimize the threat. One has to remember, that the Hizballah threat is of different magnitude altogether, and that Iron dome would be used to defend strategic installation and air force bases first and foremost in the event of a conflict with Lebanon.

Obviously, these systems are developed so that decision makers can have the time to weigh the best possible options available to Israel when violence erupts. These are by no means systems designed to tie Israel's hands when it retaliates to provocations.
 
Aye, but the reality is that what happened with Gaza wasn't a threat, it was real, it was happening, even if most of Israel wasn't affected for most of the time. The Citizens in the south can't be expected to live like that any longer. With the 'friends' we have on our borders, it'll obviously never be fully safe, but you just have to handle what you can.
 
Amir said:
Exactly. A few years ago, Hamas could only hit the area near the Gaza strip with Qassam rockets. Now they can nearly reach Haifa with bigger, more dangerous rockets. Give them a few more years, and now that they have the distance they want they could work on something else - bigger and more dangerous rockets (like Hezbollah has), or just having enough rockets so that we'll need more and more Iron Dome systems. It'll be never ending - until we end this, period.

I doubt we will, though. I can't see Israel going on a full scale ground invasion and occupying Gaza again for a while, which is the only way to end the threat.
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Yeah, something drastic would have to happen for Israel to occupy Gaza again. I suspect Israel will be happy to set back Hamas a few years. However, the citizens of Southern Israel are going to have to live with one ear always listening out for sirens for the foreseeable future.

holyland red said:
It's not that, though, is it? The same people showing their frustration at the Iron Dome capabilities are the ones that accused Israel of war crimes and the use of disproportionate force when it was attacked from Lebanon in 2006. There was no Iron Dome back then, and dozens of Israeli civilians were killed.

Some folk just can not accept Israel defending itself. Thankfully, most Israelis have realized that and accept that we just have to carry the burden of not being so popular. Beats getting killed in order to win some empathy.
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Agreed. As I said it comes across like that but, as we know, Israel will always be viewed in the wrong by the majority. Israel's military power is both a blessing and a curse. Having said that, the curse associated with having such a strong military is far outweighed by the safety provided to Israelis with such hostile neighbours.
 
holyland red said:
What rocket success rate would have justified an Israeli response? How many have to die here? What would be the numbers if it was your country on the receiving end of these rockets? Real people you know?
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I would appreciate if you don't put words in my mouth to make me look like a racist. I realize this is a sensitive subject but that's not on, no matter what.

As for the actual question, what would the numbers be? Who knows, but if the United States was killing Canadians in Windsor or Mexicans at Juarez at a 300 to 1 ratio, I surely wouldn't be defending such a disproportionate response.
 
Went for a walk around central London today only to find myself in a massive pro-Palestine demonstration. Easily 15,000 to 20,000 people taking over the streets.

Highlight of it was a fella sporting a Stoke jersey jumping around with a Hezbollah flag, although I wouldn't expect less from a Stoke fan :lol:
 
Eboue said:
I would appreciate if you don't put words in my mouth to make me look like a racist. I realize this is a sensitive subject but that's not on, no matter what.

As for the actual question, what would the numbers be? Who knows, but if the United States was killing Canadians in Windsor or Mexicans at Juarez at a 300 to 1 ratio, I surely wouldn't be defending such a disproportionate response.
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Just to make sure I understand your point. The reason isn't important its just a numbers game to you. So parity is fair but if one side kills more than the other, the side killing most is wrong?
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Just to make sure I understand your point. The reason isn't important its just a numbers game to you. So parity is fair but if one side kills more than the other, the side killing most is wrong?
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No, Israel has every right to protect their citizens and I'm glad that they have the Iron Dome. The less people dead (of any nationality), the better. Keeping with that "let's not kill people" theme, I recognize the need for Israel to respond to attacks on their people. I object to the nature of their response in this situation 1) because it is so vastly disproportionate and 2) because it isn't even a smart idea for them. Killing hundreds of innocent civilians is going to radicalize a nonzero number of friends and family members who were not previously radicalized.
 
Eboue said:
I would appreciate if you don't put words in my mouth to make me look like a racist. I realize this is a sensitive subject but that's not on, no matter what.

As for the actual question, what would the numbers be? Who knows, but if the United States was killing Canadians in Windsor or Mexicans at Juarez at a 300 to 1 ratio, I surely wouldn't be defending such a disproportionate response.
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The 300 to 1 ratio is only as a result of the Iron Dome - it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are targeting the civilians of Israel's most populated cities. In fact, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are capable of hitting 80% of all Israeli citizens.
 
Traub said:
The 300 to 1 ratio is only as a result of the Iron Dome - it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are targeting the civilians of Israel's most populated cities. In fact, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are capable of hitting 80% of all Israeli citizens.
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And at no point have I defended Hamas.
 
Traub said:
The 300 to 1 ratio is only as a result of the Iron Dome - it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are targeting the civilians of Israel's most populated cities. In fact, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are capable of hitting 80% of all Israeli citizens.
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Israel's policies are collectively targeting all Palestinians as it is - "You vote Hamas, all of Gaza will remain sieged, and we're going to make it rain with heavy munitions fire, take the hint - Israel".

A question to all here defending Israel's stance on the matter - lets assume Hamas stops firing rockets altogether. Do you think we'll see the end of Palestinians being humiliated, shot dead by soldiers and settlements being illegally built?
 
Eboue said:
And at no point have I defended Hamas.
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Ok but you are stating that Israel's response is disproportionate. From your posts, it came across that the numbers game is the reasoning behind your thinking, and I was trying to show why the number of deaths cannot be used as a benchmark for proportionality.
 
Traub said:
Ok but you are stating that Israel's response is disproportionate. From your posts, it came across that the numbers game is the reasoning behind your thinking, and I was trying to show why the number of deaths cannot be used as a benchmark for proportionality.
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It is disproportionate and it is collective punishment, both things that people claiming the high ground should not be doing. It's fantastic that Israel's defenses are sufficiently advanced to prevent more deaths, which is a stark contrast to their offensive actions which seems to be not at all concerned with how many death are caused.
 
Traub said:
Ok but you are stating that Israel's response is disproportionate. From your posts, it came across that the numbers game is the reasoning behind your thinking, and I was trying to show why the number of deaths cannot be used as a benchmark for proportionality.
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Well, the numbers game is exactly what should be used as a benchmark for proportionality. If I punch you once and give you a cut lip and you respond by punching me a 100 times and stamping on my head until I'm dead, then that's a disproportionate response.
 
Badunk said:
Well, the numbers game is exactly what should be used as a benchmark for proportionality. If I punch you once and give you a cut lip and you respond by punching me a 100 times and stamping on my head until I'm dead, then that's a disproportionate response.
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But that isn't what's happening. If you wanted to put it in terms of an example, it would be you punching him 100 times in the face (which is covered by a plasma layer that will chop off your hand in 90% of the cases), and then him punching you in the face 300 times (which is coverless), resulting in your death.
 
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Cereal Killer said:
But that isn't what's happening. If you wanted to put it in terms of an example. It would be you punching him 100 times in the face (which is covered by a plasma layer that will chop off your hand in 90% of the cases), and then him punching you in the face 300 times (which is coverless), resulting in your death.
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:lol: I know.

fecking absurd that it's even up for debate.
 
Cereal Killer said:
But that isn't what's happening. If you wanted to put it in terms of an example. It would be you punching him 100 times in the face (which is covered by a plasma layer that will chop off your hand in 90% of the cases), and then him punching you in the face 300 times (which is coverless), resulting in your death.
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:lol:
 
Aside from one casualty today through rocket fire, two soldiers were killed when several Hamas men used a tunnel to cross through to Israel and attacked. Just in case someone wondered why it's so important to destroy those tunnels...
 
Kaos said:
A question to all here defending Israel's stance on the matter - lets assume Hamas stops firing rockets altogether. Do you think we'll see the end of Palestinians being humiliated, shot dead by soldiers and settlements being illegally built?
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They'd be treated like Fatah, so no progress at all towards an independent Palestinian state
 
Amir said:
Aside from one casualty today through rocket fire, two soldiers were killed when several Hamas men used a tunnel to cross through to Israel and attacked. Just in case someone wondered why it's so important to destroy those tunnels...
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You shouldn't be there in the first place.

Just in case you wondered why they're trying to kill you.
 
Badunk said:
You shouldn't be there in the first place.

Just in case you wondered why they're trying to kill you.
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Just to make it clear - the attacks were not in the Gaza strip, it was inside Israel.

Unless you mean we shouldn't be there at all as well...
 
Amir said:
Just to make it clear - the attacks were not in the Gaza strip, it was inside Israel.

Unless you mean we shouldn't be there at all as well...
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Given that Israel is attacking all over the Gaza strip at this moment I don't see the significance of your point
 
Cereal Killer said:
But that isn't what's happening. If you wanted to put it in terms of an example. It would be you punching him 100 times in the face (which is covered by a plasma layer that will chop off your hand in 90% of the cases), and then him punching you in the face 300 times (which is coverless), resulting in your death.
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:lol:
 
Mozza said:
Given that Israel is attacking all over the Gaza strip at this moment I don't see the significance of your point
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Those tunnels weren't dug yesterday, they've been there for a while, new ones created all the time, waiting for whenever Hamas wants to use them - even without Israel's operation. They've been used before for Hamas operations, including the Shalit kidnapping in 2006, which also involved the killing of two soldiers. That is not something we can live with.
 
Badunk said:
Yep, label me a hater. Just don't think it's cool to turn up to the party 2000 years late and say "hey, mate, I was sitting there".
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Well, that's fine. But things like that only make me - someone who is far from being patriotic - say: But we are here, and we're here to stay. And if you've a problem with it, fine. But if others have a problem with it and decide to fire at us with what he's got, then we'll fire back with what we've got. And whatever happens, happens.
 
Badunk said:
Yep, label me a hater. Just don't think it's cool to turn up to the party 2000 years late and say "hey, mate, I was sitting there".
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FFS whats with the analogies in this thread! What party? what 2000 years?
 
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