I think he meant 1999
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
I never suggested you should leave. It's similar to the protestant planters in Ireland. You're there now and a solution must be found that involves everyone. I only explained why they're firing rockets at you: you're occupying their land.
And please don't try to palm off your attitude on what I've said. I'm not the reason you think that way. You are.
Haha if that was aimed at me, my bad. I just read so many inaccurate analogies in this thread that I had to post the one that I thought matched the situation best.
This is the main reason why I think, Israel is the only one who can offer a peaceful solution. Unless they consider the rights of Palestinians and treat them as equals, the extremist groups will flourish and there will be no end to this.
Even if they go in now and destroy Hamas, another extremist group will take over and this will continue for ages.
Britain crushed the Easter Rising in Ireland and executed the survivors, which led to generations of conflict. I think you're spot on. Israel needs to stop playing the victim here.
Bingo.
Hamas are a symptom, not the problem. The sooner the Israelis realise that, the sooner we move to a more tangible prospect of lasting peace.
Does Israel ever stop preparing for war against the Palestinians? Do you only build your tanks, planes and bombs only when there is a flair up?
Shilat was a soilder, he was captured, not kidnapped
Problem with Hamas is they'll never be happy unless we pack up and leave.
Whatever. You can't expect us to put up with things like that.
Well, you can expect us. We won't. That's that. Frankly, they can live with it or die with it.
And the IRA swore to never stop until Ireland was united.
If the Palestinians were given fair treatment, if the settlements in the WB ceased to be built and if Gaza wasn't a giant open prison, then Hamas would become obsolete. Ironically, its Israel's treatment of the Palestinians over the years which has been Hamas' biggest asset to consolidating its support.
So Palestinians are all represented by Hamas then?.
Israel is pushing Palestine to the limit, that they have "Nothing to lose" in a war that Israel has " Everything to lose". If Palestinians are given respect and treated in a way that they have something worth living for, they will not turn to radical groups like Hamas. Peace will not happen in a year or so, But within two- three generations, its possible. Not with the current Israeli strategy.
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I did not imply racism in your post. I do think though that the disproportionate response talk smacks of double standards. Put your families where ours are before claiming the IDF and IAF should not take the rocket launchers because they're placed in residential areas.
As for US proportions, you gotta be kidding me:
And that's without being under constant rocket fire.
You absolutely did imply racism. How else can you explain this line?
"What would be the numbers if it was your country on the receiving end of these rockets? Real people you know?"
I'm not Madeleine Albright. I don't hold you to the words of Ayelet Shaked. If you can't stick to what I actually say in this thread then don't post at all.
You could well enlighten your mates at Ha'aretz what we're trying to defend here.
That just doesn't make sense in light of the fact that you don't need the 'Israel ingredient' in order for radical, extremist Islamist groups to emerge- just look at Syria, Iraq and Egypt at the moment. Hamas would never become obsolete (regardless of Israel's existence or non-existence) as long as they can manage to cling to power and assert their dominance over the Gaza population. People make it sound as if the only thing that's stopping Hamas from turning into a beacon of liberal democracy is Israel's control over Gaza.
That line you quoted refers to the difference between being under fire and suggesting proportionality from a safe living room, thousands of miles away. I'll try to use a different example. An IAF pilot identifies a rocket launcher firing at Israel. His family lives within rocket range. What should he do if there was a child standing next to the launcher?
For your sake I hope your not Ms. Albright. Her short answer is an indication of the huge gule between the morals of the IDF and the US.
It doesn't matter if all Palestinians are represented by Hamas, because Hamas has already shown they don't give a damn about them. Even during better periods, when peace seemed a possibility, they still went ahead with their terror activities whenever it suited them. They'll just continue doing what they want to do.
I think I heard this from Mozza before. We should accept terrorism for three generations without responding, in the hope that the 22nd century will be a bit better.
It'll probably be like talking sense to people here.
To be fair, though, I don't think there's been much wrong with the way Haaretz has been covering it. Not every newspaper has to declare Israel should bring Gaza back to the stone age.
Yeah, that's what most people are trying to mean...You guys are not taking the hint
Oh, I've taken the hint. once Britain takes the hint (hint! hint) and offer me citizenship, I'm out of here...
It'll probably be like talking sense to people here.
To be fair, though, I don't think there's been much wrong with the way Haaretz has been covering it. Not every newspaper has to declare Israel should bring Gaza back to the stone age.
Hebrew version of Al-Hayat Al Jadida
You'll always need an ingredient though. In Iraq for example, Islamists emerged as a result of the US-led invasion where previously their presence in the country had been non-existent. In the rest of the Arab world they propped up when the West decided it would neutralise the secular, Arab nationalist movements and allow extremists to fill the vacuum left. Heck, the decimation of the PLO was what's essentially allowed the likes of Hamas to fill the void.
Hamas would never turn into a beacon of democracy, but they would also never enjoyed the strangehold they have in Gaza at the moment were it not for Israel's policies. Attempting to deal with them heavy-handedly would only conjure up new extremists in their fallen place, if not vitalising their recruitment drive. Conversely, if Hamas were to stop firing rockets then lets face it, the Israelis aren't going to suddenly cut the Palestinians some slack - They'll still be humiliated in check points, they'll still face institutionalized racism as they remain stateless, illegal settlements will still be built.
Hamas isn't and was never the broad issue here.
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How long are you going to keep responding. You have "everything to lose" in this war and they don't.
Like I said before, current Israeli thinking/strategy is not going to achieve peace. Do you think its possible? and would to take a minute to answer @Kaos question in the previous page.
If assumption is all we are going to do and If you are going to 'assume' Hamas is going to stop firing rockets altogether and stop all anti-Israel activities then you can 'assume' Israel will end the so-called humiliation of Palestinians. Simple.
No, it doesn't refer to that. "You know, real people" implies that I think Americans are worth more than Israelis. So you are calling me a racist.
Neither were the settlements. The PLO was founded in 1964. Hebron massacre was in 1929.
Real people in the sense of familiar faces. Either my English is poor or you're paranoid. Or both.
I'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding then.
That clearly is not true, because even during the "peaceful" times when there has been no offensive from Hamas, Palestinians are treated like shit.
You might be misunderstanding him Eboue. When I read that post, to me it struck as he was saying that from 3rd party point of view you might not get gravity of situation from Israel point of view but if it happens in your Country probably you will see from different way. Not calling you 'racist' but something about different point of views.
Are we really going to quote arbitrary massacres throughout history to dignify our points? Would you like me to quote the dozen or so massacres instigated by the Israelis/settlers too?
The Hebron massacre was carried out in response to (false) allegations that Jews were massacring Arabs in Jerusalem. I don't see what your point is here.
Settlements aren't the only problem, but its one of many injustices the Palestinians face which propels them to extremism.
We'll respond for as long as we're here, simply because we can not afford to lose. I don't think any Israeli government can achievce peace as long as the Arabs are led to believe the Jewish majority here will give up or compromise its right for self-determination. This also answers Kaos' question. I don't think peace would break even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow. Fatah and the rest of the factions share the same strategic goal and differ in tactics only.
I suppose the same could be said of Syria where people are tired of the minority totalitarian dictatorship which you support.
The point is that settlements were never the issue as many liked to portray. As we can see in this thread, and indeed the last couple of pages, the conflict is about Jewish self determination within any borders. There's no shame in admitting it anymore, and we hear this more and more. Individuals like Amir are surprised, because until recently it wasn't common to openly call for the elimination of Israel.
The Palestinians are in the gutter, there is no question about that. Little I can do about it unless I know that they see their future next to a Jewish Israel and not replacing it.
Absolute nonesense, Hamas have held long periods of truce with Israel, only for Israel to bomb them as a peace deal is the last thing Israel is intrested in. You can't build settlements if your borders are defined in a peace deal.
Also the treatment of Fatah puts paid to the lie that Israel wants peace, what rocket attacks do you face in the West Bank? Whata stopping you from negotiating with Fatah? Nothing at all
Like they have in the West Bank?
The treatment of Fatah is indeed a problem and a huge fault there lies with Israel. Hamas is a totally kettle of fish. "Truce" for Hamas is just a period to strengthen and gain new weapons, also starting shortly after with a small dose of rockets that the world doesn't care about and Israel normally doesn't respond to.