Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Dante said:
I'd hate to be a hostage in a bank heist if HR was the negotiator. He'd probably tell the SWAT team to bomb the whole fecking bank and then blame the robbers for getting me killed.
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If the terrorists inside threatened the entire city around the bank I would. What would an air force do in case an airplane was hijacked and heading towards skyscrapers?
 
Kaos said:
Gaza is one of the most densely packed cities in the world, what do you expect Hamas to do - conveniently congregate on Gaza beach to make it easier for the IDF to distinguish them from civilians? Why not just light up flares and hold up giant placards saying "Hamas over here guys, come and get it!".
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I wouldn't expect anything other than war crimes from Hamas, to be honest. I have said all along they were a bunch of terrorists that will lead their people to trouble, but you lot wouldn't listen.
 
holyland red said:
If the terrorists inside threatened the entire city around the bank I would.
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The terrorists are threatening the city with sticks and stones. The word overkill couldn't be more appropriate.

holyland red said:
What would an air force do in case an airplane was hijacked and heading towards skyscrapers?
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There's no way out of an airplane. There'd also be huge regret and remorse shown, rather than shifting the blame to the victims.
 
Dante said:
The terrorists are threatening the city with sticks and stones. The word overkill couldn't be more appropriate.


There's no way out of an airplane. There'd also be huge regret and remorse shown, rather than shifting the blame to the victims.
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There would be shifting the blame to the hijackers, exactly like the Egyptians called it earlier today. It's Hamas' fault that innocent civilians are killed in this conflict. Both sides of the border.
 
Dante said:
The terrorists are threatening the city with sticks and stones. The word overkill couldn't be more appropriate.


There's no way out of an airplane. There'd also be huge regret and remorse shown, rather than shifting the blame to the victims.
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Iranian Grads, Syrian M75's are not sticks and stones. Though I agree that thats all Hamas will be left with shortly.
 
That was in 2007, when Hamas and Fatah conflicted and it wasn't a wedding. Not defending them because both parties did horrible things at that time.

Anyway new footage released by a French channel about the beach kids.
 
I'm sure there are posters furiously looking for some dubious newspaper articles right now to prove it was justified.
 
Why have Israel held out on a ground war for so long? Very cowardly of the Israelis. They know with a ground war they will have absolutely no bs excuse for civilian kills like they do now. The bs pamphlets and the protection through the US media is allowing Israel to massacre civilians freely. Lets see how this changes in a ground war.
 
WR10 said:
Why have Israel held out on a ground war for so long? Very cowardly of the Israelis. They know with a ground war they will have absolutely no bs excuse for civilian kills like they do now. The bs pamphlets and the protection through the US media is allowing Israel to massacre civilians freely. Lets see how this changes in a ground war.
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What do you mean ? Should they have started one much earlier ?
 
I'm off to annex my neighbours garden, and when they do anything to resist, I can kill them all citing self defense.

Good news.
 
Raoul said:
What do you mean ? Should they have started one much earlier ?
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Yes. That is, if their intentions are to fight Hamas of course. Right now, they are not fighting Hamas, they are simply massacring civilians. Hamas are doing little to no civilian fatality. So if they really want to face Hamas, why not a ground war?
 
WR10 said:
Yes. That is, if their intentions are to fight Hamas of course. Right now, they are not fighting Hamas, they are simply massacring civilians. Hamas are doing little to no civilian fatality. So if they really want to face Hamas, why not a ground war?
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So you're pleased that the ground war has "finally" started then ?
 
moses said:
You think Hamas can actually threaten the existence of the Israeli State? How?
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Hamas is the armed wing of a braoder movement aiming to delegitmize the State of Israel. This movement is a bizzare alliance between Western liberals and Islamic fundamentalists. In between there are tons of moralists, some of them have genuine good will.
 
Dante said:
Were there were terrorists hiding behind the sandcastles?
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There are legitimate military targets on the Gaza coastline. The five Hamas terrorists infiltrating Israel from the sea didn't come here to build sand castles, did they? The poor kids paid a price for a pointless round of violence, as far as Israel is concerned. They'd still be alive if Hamas agreed to the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire. All 200-odd Palestinian casualties would have been alive if Hamas didn't provoke the IDF to action with hundreds of mortars and rockets fired at Israeli civilians.
 
holyland red said:
There are legitimate military targets on the Gaza coastline. The five Hamas terrorists infiltrating Israel from the sea didn't come here to build sand castles, did they? The poor kids paid a price for a pointless round of violence, as far as Israel is concerned. They'd still be alive if Hamas agreed to the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire. All 200-odd Palestinian casualties would have been alive if Hamas didn't provoke the IDF to action with hundreds of mortars and rockets fired at Israeli civilians.
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....but since Hammas did fire the rockets those children will have to die. Excellent logic.

I'm getting more and more convinced that Israel is nothing but a terrorist state with some of the things they say.
 
shamans said:
....but since Hammas did fire the rockets those children will have to die. Excellent logic.

I'm getting more and more convinced that Israel is nothing but a terrorist state with some of the things they say.
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Well, civilian deaths are an inevitbility when a state is fired at from heavily populated areas. The international law acknowledges exactly that, and even puts the blame for those deaths on the sides that uses civilians as human shields.

And I'm pretty sure you entered this debate pretty much convinced in your opinion of Israel.
 
WR10 said:
Yes. That is, if their intentions are to fight Hamas of course. Right now, they are not fighting Hamas, they are simply massacring civilians. Hamas are doing little to no civilian fatality. So if they really want to face Hamas, why not a ground war?
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You are aware that if this escalates to full-scale urban warfare the civilian death toll would rise sharply, aren't you? This could have been prevented by Hamas 48 hours ago. Thursday morning's tunnel infiltration left Netanyahu with little choice other than the ground operation we see now.
 
holyland red said:
Well, civilian deaths are an inevitbility when a state is fired at from heavily populated areas. The international law acknowledges exactly that, and even puts the blame for those deaths on the sides that uses civilians as human shields.

And I'm pretty sure you entered this debate pretty much convinced in your opinion of Israel.
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You have no proof of human shields being used. All I've seen are images being posted by extremist Israels made on MS paint about how Hamas have been using humans as shields. And no, more than 50-60 % of the causality being civilian deaths is not "inevitable"

Are you honestly saying that Israel is trying its best to not hurt civilians? If they are then wow the IDF is one of the worst armies out there (and they clearly aren't).

I was not convinced about anything but for years and as for this conflict as well, I see Israels (and only Israels) defending the death of innocent women men and children. Sorry but you can't make excuses for that and yes it has convinced me who the bigger evil is between the two.

Talk about being convinced. You are actually from Israel so you really can't call it a "debate" when your'e involved since you're obviously going to blindly defend the actions of your army.
 
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shamans said:
You have no proof of human shields being used. All I've seen are images being posted by extremist Israels made on MS paint about how Hamas have been using humans as shields. And no, more than 50-60 % of the causality being civilian deaths is not "inevitable"
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Why do you think the Palestinians make the rooftops if the IDF is out there to deliberately kill civilians? Why would the Hamas leadership encourage them to do so?

shamans said:
Are you honestly saying that Israel is trying its best to not hurt civilians? If they are then wow the IDF is one of the worst armies out there (and they clearly aren't).
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shamans said:
I was not convinced about anything but for years and as for this conflict as well, I see Israels (and only Israels) defending the death of innocent women men and children. Sorry but you can't make excuses for that and yes it has convinced me who the bigger evil is between the two.
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"Forces occupying near densely populated areas must avoid locating military objectives near or in densely populated areas and endeavor to remove civilians from the vicinity of military objectives. Failure to do so would cause a higher civilian death toll resulting from bombardment by the attacking force and the defenders would be held responsible, even criminally liable, for these deaths."

That's international law. It is NOT Israeli.

shamans said:
Talk about being convinced. You are actually from Israel so you really can't call it a "debate" when your'e involved since you're obviously going to blindly defend the actions of your army.
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I am from Israel, and with Israel being a democracy there are people here who openly voice their opposition to the government policies, including this current excahnge with Hamas. See Ihab for example, he is an Israeli too, and an enemy of his own state at the same time.

And why wouldn't you be able to debate with an Israeli? I never tried to pretend I was neutral on this one. I don't expect the Arabs to be. e could still have a good old debate on here.
 
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Mihajlovic said:
The Hamas urgently needs to work on a new foreign policy which will once and for all exclude rockets and kidnappings and instead give diplomacy a chance.
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Well, they seemed to have joined with the PA, moving to a more diplomatic track- and Israel promptly called of all talks with everyone. So much for giving diplomacy a chance. Kerry's statements about the failure of the talks were as critical of Israel as a US official can be.

Israel has overwhelming superiority and the only international backer that counts- they need not ever talk to anyone- a servile PA, an aggressive Hamas or even a beaten and craven Hamas, or any other worse groups Israel will spawn by their repeated attacks. And Israel's population will suffer but the suffering will not be enough to create a general demand for peace- it will be enough to maintain support for current Israeli government policies.
It's a win-win for Netanyahu.
I genuinely think Hamas' strategy can not be to encourage more such raids. Because they would pretty soon be both leaderless and be superseded by groups like Islamic Jihad within Gaza.

I'm a little surprised how, within a few hours (or maybe less than that) of news of the kidnapping breaking, Netanyahu was convinced that it was by Hamas people. I mean the Mossad and Shin Beth are good, but that quick smacks of opportunism.
And that little touch- to not share with the Israeli public the sound of gunshots heard during the phone call- was a PR masterstroke for any Israeli who wanted a war. Keep hope alive for weeks, let the reality crash down on an infuriated people and march into Gaza with unanimous support.
 
berbatrick said:
Well, they seemed to have joined with the PA, moving to a more diplomatic track- and Israel promptly called of all talks with everyone. So much for giving diplomacy a chance. Kerry's statements about the failure of the talks were as critical of Israel as a US official can be.

Israel has overwhelming superiority and the only international backer that counts- they need not ever talk to anyone- a servile PA, an aggressive Hamas or even a beaten and craven Hamas, or any other worse groups Israel will spawn by their repeated attacks. And Israel's population will suffer but the suffering will not be enough to create a general demand for peace- it will be enough to maintain support for current Israeli government policies.
It's a win-win for Netanyahu.
I genuinely think Hamas' strategy can not be to encourage more such raids. Because they would pretty soon be both leaderless and be superseded by groups like Islamic Jihad within Gaza.

I'm a little surprised how, within a few hours (or maybe less than that) of news of the kidnapping breaking, Netanyahu was convinced that it was by Hamas people. I mean the Mossad and Shin Beth are good, but that quick smacks of opportunism.
And that little touch- to not share with the Israeli public the sound of gunshots heard during the phone call- was a PR masterstroke for any Israeli who wanted a war. Keep hope alive for weeks, let the reality crash down on an infuriated people and march into Gaza with unanimous support.
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You are quite the genius in story-telling. I think it was pretty clear to all Israelis with more than two brain cells that the boys were dead when they started emptying and searching water wells in the Hebron area. And not only we have excellent intelligence sources in the WB, the PA collaborated with Israel during the kidnapping and murder episode.

How about an alternative scenario. Hamas is more isolated than ever having backed the losing horse in the Syrian civil war, and getting heavily involved in the murder of Egyptians in Sinai didn't win it high-ranked friends south of their borders. With a-Sisi crushing the tunnel industry between Egyptian and Gazan Rafah Hamas also took a substantial economic hit in the face of lost revenue from "import" tax (alleged to be ca. 25%). In the last few weeks the Hamas financial well dried up, and it couldn't pay salaries to 40,000 officials. Obviously, the Fatah-led PA wouldn't bail out its fierce rival, which meant a dead end for Hamas. Or not. One can always use rockets to fire at Israel and let useful idiots spout "human rights" slogans when Israel returns fire, in a well-directed episode aimed at reaching a ceasfire which will see Hamas getting economic gains. Bottom line is that Hamas get to hold millions of Gazans hostage for a few more years before hell breaks loose again.
 
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holyland red said:


Why do you think the Palestinians make the rooftops if the IDF is out there to deliberately kill civilians? Why would the Hamas leadership encourage them to do so?
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Yes. All causalities have been because people are on rooftops. Under the beach is a Hammas missile making factory that Israel wanted to destroy but unfortunately kids made it there to defend the structure. So this video really proves nothing. I don't even know the context in which it has been said and don't really bother what a Hammas lunatic has to say. It's about the civilians I care and you can't tell me the children who have died have been a result of this.

Even if they were sending people on 'the rooftops' where supposedly most people have died. Do you really think they'd carry along their kids, women and children with them?

holyland red said:
"Forces occupying near densely populated areas must avoid locating military objectives near or in densely populated areas and endeavor to remove civilians from the vicinity of military objectives. Failure to do so would cause a higher civilian death toll resulting from bombardment by the attacking force and the defenders would be held responsible, even criminally liable, for these deaths."

That's international law. It is NOT Israeli.
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The law = In case of war, move civilians away from war zone. If not done, could cause civilian loss of life.
According to Israel = It's not our fault every terrorist we kill is surrounded by a child.

And where can they go? The ones who can leave are trying to leave as far as I know. Leaving your home and belongings is not as simple as you think.

holyland red said:
I am from Israel, and with Israel being a democracy there are people here who openly voice their opposition to the government policies, including this current excahnge with Hamas. See Ihab for example, he is an Israeli too, and an enemy of his own state at the same time.

And why wouldn't you be able to debate with an Israeli? I never tried to pretend I was neutral on this one. I don't expect the Arabs to be. e could still have a good old debate on here.
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Democratic it might be but I'm a bit skeptical about it having freedom of speech. I may very well be wrong because this view of mine is based from interactions online but it seems to me anyone who speaks against the offense publicly will not be treated right. Of course I may be wrong but this video supports my view


I can have a debate with an Israeli but not some (most I've talked to online) because I think a debate can be about the occupation of Israel and a solution to it rather than debating how the slaughtering of women and children can be rationalized. It doesn't become a debate then in my eyes.
 
Hamas is a fly. It is like the Taliban. A word/group being used in the media to scaremonger people around the world. With Israel's defences, they are no threat to you. They never will be. If anything significant ever did happen, which it might. It won't be to do with Hamas. It will be because the people of Gaza have said enough is enough and that little 12 year old kid who has witnessed his entire family be wiped away by Israeli forces is looking for revenge. You are breeding freedom fighters. They aren't terrorists. If anything significant ever did happen, the USA and Britain will come running to Israel's bosom anyway so you really have nothing to fear. The rockets into Israel are insignificant because they don't do anything.

The ceasefire is useless because Israel just bides its time until for a few months then bombs Gaza again or invades another country, with or without the support of any other country because it knows nothing will happen. It means nothing. It understands it is Ramadan, now is the time to hit Gaza when it is weak. Put your message across.

I think its sad how you think this is actually a fair war or even a battle. Honestly, in 100/200 years time, people will look back at this time and it will most likely be called the most farcical period/war in history where there is BLATANT breaches of human civil rights going on, where it is so one-sided and crooked where one country without any opposition is allowed to terrorise another nation, its neighbour so freely, treat these people like they were once treated in concentration camps. It is a war crime that only one other period of history is able to relate to and that is the rise of Hitler and the Nazi's. However, the Palestinians have no where to turn to and are stuck in a hell hole.
 
A really good read for people on both sides of the conflict. Courtesy of the New York Times.

The Righteous Among the Gazans, a Palestinian Saved My Life

TEL AVIV — I often think about him, especially in times like these. I try to imagine his home in the Gaza Strip. I try to imagine what he might be doing at this very moment. Perhaps he stops and thinks of me, too. Perhaps he even wishes he hadn’t saved my life.
It happened in 1996, when I was 13, just before my Bar Mitzvah. My parents were renovating our house in Ramat Gan and the contractor hired a group of Palestinian workers from Gaza to do the job. I was trying to open the new bathroom window and I pushed a little too hard. My hand went right through the glass. It didn’t hurt; I remember feeling the shattered glass like silk moving across on my skin. It slashed through my arm, from elbow to shoulder.

I was drowning in my own blood when Fauzi, one of the Palestinian workers, ran inside and began pressing on my open veins, stanching the bleeding with his bare hands. My stepfather, Silvan Shalom, a prominent cabinet minister in the Israeli government, was on the other side of the house when Fauzi screamed for help.
He couldn’t see what had happened and said it would take him a few minutes to get dressed. But Fauzi kept yelling at him to come immediately. It’s an image I will never forget: A Palestinian construction worker shouting at a senior Israeli minister. He simply didn’t care about anything else. He kept putting pressure on my open wound all the way to the emergency room.
The doctors operated on me for seven hours. They told me if it weren’t for Fauzi, I wouldn’t be alive. I was hospitalized for months. I had to undergo physiotherapy, electric and laser treatments — and to this day I still can feel almost nothing in my right arm.

I know that my parents offered Fauzi their gratitude. I know that they offered him their help. They also told me that he gracefully refused.
Nearly two decades have passed since then. Our politics have changed, and for the worse. Gaza is now autonomous and ruled by Hamas, which is probably the only government in the world that has expressed joy at the recent kidnapping and murder of three Israeli boys.
Fauzi is no longer permitted to work here in Israel. He isn’t even allowed to enter. Who knows — maybe he works for Hamas now, directing rockets at Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa, to make ends meet. Maybe not. Perhaps his friends would hold it against him if they knew he once saved a young Jewish boy’s life. Perhaps they would call him a hero.
What I do know is that since ordinary Israelis and Palestinians stopped communicating, we lost sight of all the things that connect, rather than divide, us. When I tell my younger siblings today that a Palestinian from Gaza saved my life, they’re skeptical. They can’t even imagine a reality in which Israelis and Palestinians could be in the same room together without killing each other.
But there was a time when we co-existed and had a deep, direct dialogue. It’s nowhere to be found today, and both sides are trapped by their leaders’ agendas. As in most wars, each side dehumanizes the other. The more time passes without contact, the easier it is to forget that there are very similar human beings on the other side. And the easier it is to kill each other.

I became a lefty that day, but not necessarily a leftist. Despite my injury, I fought hard to be recruited into the Israeli army, and fought even harder to defend my country. During my army service, I was exposed to anti-Semitic textbooks in Palestinian schools, calling for murder and genocide. After my service, I heard the sirens in the Israeli cities bordering Gaza as I ran for shelter. And here I am now, in the heart of Israel, and the sirens are wailing again. Even if I wanted to run away from reality, there’s no more running. There’s simply nowhere to hide — for me or for the people of Gaza.
I find it hard to believe that most Palestinians living in Gaza support an aerial Russian roulette. Yet most of them did democratically elect Hamas, an organization that seeks the destruction of the state of Israel. And while widespread criticism is heard from the Israeli left regarding Israel’s strikes on Gaza, we hear no such voices from Gaza condemning rockets fired at Israel.
It’s hard for me to oppose an Israeli strike on Gaza while Hamas continues to intentionally fire rockets at civilians. On the other hand, it’s easy to see things that way from where I sit. If I imagine living in destitute conditions for years, without even having a country to call my own, I might despair. And desperate measures might follow. But even the most righteous fight for freedom is not an excuse for intentionally killing innocents.
Israelis have every right to defend ourselves and our country, but that does not give some of my compatriots the right to shout “Death to Arabs” in the streets.

I know quite well that there are good people — kind, warm, loving people — on the other side. And I don’t care if they represent the minority or the majority of the population. Abraham asked God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah for only 10 righteous people. We can be right without being hateful. We can act without being vengeful. Israelis must realize that not all Palestinians are terrorists. I owe my life to one of them.
Because governments are only as strong as the peoples’ support for them, the only way to end the bloodshed is to renew dialogue between the peoples rather than the leaders.
Israelis must remember to fight terror and not the Palestinians, and to defend ourselves from racism and hate as much as we do from rockets. Palestinians must fight for national self-determination without backing a regime that promotes the annihilation of Israelis. It’s the only way to end this conflict.
Nimrod Nir is a media and strategic consultant.
 
Raoul said:
Is your neighbor firing rockets ?
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He might if he had them after you took his house and made him live in a prison? The whole conflict must be the context, it doesn't begin with the Palestinian reaction.
 
For me the issue is a Nation State killing innocents and shoulder shrugging about it. For me protecting the innocent is the cornerstone of our humanity. It is the fulcrum of all of our justice systems, you cannot find someone guilty in court unless it is beyond all reasonable doubt. The idea you can kill the innocents to get at the guilty sets liberal and enlightened philosophy back to l'ancien regime, the dark ages.
 
moses said:
He might if he had them after you took his house and made him live in a prison? The whole conflict must be the context, it doesn't begin with the Palestinian reaction.
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Or it was the neighbour who along with few other neighbours tried to end my existence, an attempt which failed miserably and is key for modern age conflict in the region. If the conflict is to be seen in context it has even far far deeper roots. Depends how far you want to dig.
 
The Man Himself said:
Or it was the neighbour who along with few other neighbours tried to end my existence, an attempt which failed miserably and is key for modern age conflict in the region. If the conflict is to be seen in context it has even far far deeper roots. Depends how far you want to dig.
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When you create a new state in a region without consulting the locals and not let them have a vote on the changes you are not going to get much stability.
 
thegregster said:
When you create a new state in a region without consulting the locals and not let them have a vote on the changes you are not going to get much stability.
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Tell that to 'original' locals of the land, how far back do you want to go? Tell that to people who have had to always live in exile and had to earn their establishment in their land. It is easy to sit behind keyboard and tell what Israel should or should not do.
 
The Man Himself said:
Tell that to 'original' locals of the land, how far back do you want to go? Tell that to people who have had to always live in exile and had to earn their establishment in their land. It is easy to sit behind keyboard and tell what Israel should or should not do.
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So the Locals living their in 1948 should have had no say whatsoever in their future?
 
holyland red said:
There are legitimate military targets on the Gaza coastline. The five Hamas terrorists infiltrating Israel from the sea didn't come here to build sand castles, did they? The poor kids paid a price for a pointless round of violence, as far as Israel is concerned. They'd still be alive if Hamas agreed to the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire. All 200-odd Palestinian casualties would have been alive if Hamas didn't provoke the IDF to action with hundreds of mortars and rockets fired at Israeli civilians.
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What about that unarmed kid that was shot dead by Israeli troops in May? Or the hundred others before him who were shot outside of a Gaza-Israel conflict? What would have kept them alive then?
 
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