Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

4 children killed on the beach in Gaza, fecking cowards.

There was one that was worse. Two hits on a hospital. Even after being informed that 13 of the wounded could not be moved, the hospital staff kept being warned of another strike. At least they kept warning them.

I'm a neutral on the matter but some of the stories popping up really are horrific.
 
It didnt represent the Palestinians. Hence it was worthless.

It totally went over the heads of the natives.

Also was Faisal not promised
"the Jews did not propose to set up a government of their own but wished to work under British protection, to colonize and develop Palestine without encroaching on any legitimate interests".

There is no mention of "The Palestinians"there simply because there was no such thing. Even the Arabs themselves didn't know they were Palestinians. It's the proposed Jewish homeland that is referred to as Palestine.
 
It is because they have witnessed how Israel treats their brethren in the occupied territories

But we will not be there, remember? The "occupation" will be over and that recently-invented "Palestinian people" will be free at last. Must be more attractive than being second-class citizens in an apartheid state.
 
There is no mention of "The Palestinians"there simply because there was no such thing. Even the Arabs themselves didn't know they were Palestinians. It's the proposed Jewish homeland that is referred to as Palestine.

Palestinian nationalism has been about long before the formation of Israel.

Regardless of all this, the basic point still stands that the creation of Israel via mass immigration totally destabilized the region. The Zionist movement made no provision for the Arabs in the region. They were an after thought.
 
Palestinian nationalism has been about long before the formation of Israel.

Regardless of all this, the basic point still stands that the creation of Israel via mass immigration totally destabilized the region. The Zionist movement made no provision for the Arabs in the region. They were an after thought.

There is no wonder that as late as the 1920's there is no mention of the Arabs here, or across the river, as Palestinians. They simply didn't know they were, and that's long after the first wave of Jewish immigration back home.

I agree with the destabilization bit. Still, no excuse for not choosing a better future for younger generations. Neither side is going to just disappear.
 
Israel, home of modern day Nazis committing their own Holocaust in Palestine.
 
You can draw parallels between Nazis and Zionists, they have a lot of things in common.

4 children killed while they were playing on the beach :



What kind of human can do that ?! I'm hoping for some kind of divine justice for these people.
 
I don't blame the Israelis - if you keep telling yourself, you're a victim - you eventually start to believe it.

That of course doesn't absolve groups like Hamas and the very real danger they pose not to mention the crimes they have committed over the years - let's not forget suicide bombings are down because Israel has built huge protective walls and not so much because the groups there decided to play nice.

But my real beef is with white guilt. Europeans sat around and played with their schlongs while Hitler and the Nazis went about exterminating millions of Jews and to a lesser extent other 'undesirables'.

So white guilt decided there needed to be something tangible done in return - fair enough.

Hell I'm even ok with Israel taking over all of Jerusalem and other bits and pieces after the arabs tried to pull a fast one and got their butts handed to them in less than a week.

But you'd think at a certain point - there would be some fair play and the west would be a neutral arbitrator. But no...it seems this is an instance of white guilt that my children might grow up to see in action too.

I decided long ago I wouldn't give a feck about the middle east - especially because of dislike of my fellow muslim brothers in the region, but I keep getting drawn in emotionally.

Every time an innocent Israeli is killed - we get a background (so we should), but Palestinians are mere numbers - numbers for scorecards...numbers for people on all sides to manipulate. But no names or background stories for them - Close to 200 killed, I'll be generous and say half were terrorists. That still leaves 100 innocent dead.

Can you imagine the outrage if a 100 innocent Israelis were killed in less than 2 weeks?

But then I think - of course the Israelis don't care - it's not their job to care....the west? As I said - White Guilt. The media? lol - Sham media like Press TV don't count. So what does that leave us with? Oh yeah, the muslim ummah - the muslim brothers....The brothers who should either be standing with their brothers in solidarity or joining with the rest of the world to wipe out groups like Hamas.

Unfortunately the status quo seems to be good for all concerned. So we'll get outrage, and justification and finally a 'truce'.

Everyone will forget, both sides will hate the other that little bit more...and as that cnut Brendan Rogers said, 'WE GO AGAIN' - in a couple of years time.

*long rambling post* If it offends - good - I wanted to offend. There are no good guys here - assholes on all sides - assholes who've decided Palestinian deaths make for good politics.
 
What kind of human can do that ?! I'm hoping for some kind of divine justice for these people.

'Divine Justice' - that's what got us into this f-ing mess.

Divine right to the land claimed by one group - another group saying, God told us, the Jews would be the worst of the worst...maybe just seeing each other as people might be a start.

**Supposed** still of the 4 kids before they were murdered
BssDf6jCUAEnYo0.jpg
 
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'Divine Justice' - that's what got us into this f-ing mess.

Divine right to the land claimed by one group - another group saying, God told us, the Jews would be the worst of the worst...maybe just seeing each other as people might be a start.

The palestinians have no army, no backing from the west and no backing from their fellow arab leaders in the region neither - which goes how cowardly they are for those who still believe in them - The Saouds, the Hashemites etc. all traitors in US's pay. The only things left to Palestinians is God hence divine justice for the believers.
 
I don't blame the Israelis - if you keep telling yourself, you're a victim - you eventually start to believe it.

That of course doesn't absolve groups like Hamas and the very real danger they pose not to mention the crimes they have committed over the years - let's not forget suicide bombings are down because Israel has built huge protective walls and not so much because the groups there decided to play nice.

But my real beef is with white guilt. Europeans sat around and played with their schlongs while Hitler and the Nazis went about exterminating millions of Jews and to a lesser extent other 'undesirables'.

So white guilt decided there needed to be something tangible done in return - fair enough.

Hell I'm even ok with Israel taking over all of Jerusalem and other bits and pieces after the arabs tried to pull a fast one and got their butts handed to them in less than a week.

But you'd think at a certain point - there would be some fair play and the west would be a neutral arbitrator. But no...it seems this is an instance of white guilt that my children might grow up to see in action too.

I decided long ago I wouldn't give a feck about the middle east - especially because of dislike of my fellow muslim brothers in the region, but I keep getting drawn in emotionally.

Every time an innocent Israeli is killed - we get a background (so we should), but Palestinians are mere numbers - numbers for scorecards...numbers for people on all sides to manipulate. But no names or background stories for them - Close to 200 killed, I'll be generous and say half were terrorists. That still leaves 100 innocent dead.

Can you imagine the outrage if a 100 innocent Israelis were killed in less than 2 weeks?

But then I think - of course the Israelis don't care - it's not their job to care....the west? As I said - White Guilt. The media? lol - Sham media like Press TV don't count. So what does that leave us with? Oh yeah, the muslim ummah - the muslim brothers....The brothers who should either be standing with their brothers in solidarity or joining with the rest of the world to wipe out groups like Hamas.

Unfortunately the status quo seems to be good for all concerned. So we'll get outrage, and justification and finally a 'truce'.

Everyone will forget, both sides will hate the other that little bit more...and as that cnut Brendan Rogers said, 'WE GO AGAIN' - in a couple of years time.

*long rambling post* If it offends - good - I wanted to offend. There are no good guys here - assholes on all sides - assholes who've decided Palestinian deaths make for good politics.

Good post
 
Do you wonder why there are many questions left unanswered regarding the Israeli escalation in Gaza? Why the questions are so meek, the responses so murky, the phrases come in cliches and soundbites you've heard before? Do you feel watching certain interviews is an assault on your intelligence?

Do you wonder why official Israeli spokespersons sound so calm, smiley and kind when their popular base sounds so angry, so aggressive, and so racist? How they are likely to say something like, "thank you it's nice to be with you", even after being grilled by a probing frustrated anchor. Why, when asked about the expansion of illegal settlements, Israeli spokespersons speak of the need for a peace settlement, and when asked about bombing civilians, they speak of a better future for all children, Israeli and Palestinian?

Wonder no more. This is all part of a well-thought, well-orchestrated media strategy to mystify, mislead and even misrepresent the reality. And much of it can be found in The Israel Project's 2009 Global Language Dictionary.

But this is not unique to Israel. Governments set up entire ministries and/or institutions to defend their policies and advance their narrative, at times to mislead their enemies or competitors. Indeed, it's naive to expect otherwise. Like cynicism, gullibility is especially dangerous for journalists.

Don't say that, say this

Five years ago, US-based "The Israel Project" asked a Zionist Republican pollster, Frank Luntz, to prepare a new updated media guide for "leaders who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel". The project builds on some of the best examples of Israeli leaders' own success at mystification, in order to devise a strategy that neutralises Israel's critics and promotes and improves its media standing.

It's a step-by-step guide that underlines "the words that work" and the "words that don't work" when speaking to westerners. Like any marketing or PR campaign, much of the suggested code words, phrases and sound bites are based on polls.

The report came after Israel's 2008 Gaza war and following US President Barack Obama's denouncement of Israeli settlements and his overtures towards Iran. It was prepared for internal use only and kept secret, until it was finally leaked in the fall of 2009.

So for example, how to sell Americans on the Israeli settlements: "Be positive. Turn the issue away from settlements and toward peace. Invoke ethnic cleansing."

And how to gain the support of viewers: The pro-Israel pundits are instructed to be careful with their tone.

"A patronising, parental tone will turn Americans and Europeans off" because it's at a time in history when Jews in general - and Israelis in particular - are "no longer perceived as the persecuted people".

Among sophisticated, educated, opinionated American and European audiences, "Israelis are often seen as the occupiers and the aggressors. With that kind of baggage, it is critical that messages from the pro-Israel spokespeople not come across as supercilious or condescending."

And since the US evangelical base already supports Israel, the Dictionary warns against using religious arguments when speaking to western leftists or liberals. But since to "much of the Left", both sides are equally at fault, and because the Israelis are more powerful, the most effective way to build support for Israel is to talk about "working toward a lasting peace" that "respects the rights of everyone in the region".

And why is it so important to always speak of peace? The report signals two reasons: One: If Americans see no hope for peace - if they only see a continuation of a 2,000-year-long episode of "Family Feud" - Americans will not want their government to spend tax dollars or their president's clout on helping Israel. Reason two: "The speaker that is perceived as being most for peace will win the debate."

And this is one of my favourite attempts at deception:

"Americans agree that Israel has a right to defensible borders. But it does you no good to define exactly what those borders should be. Avoid talking about borders in terms of pre- or post-1967, because it only serves to remind Americans of Israel's military history. Particularly on the left, this does you harm."

Gaza sequel

Chapter six of the 18-chapter, 117-page guide focuses on the lessons from the last Gaza war and proposes a more effective public diplomacy for the next time around, i.e. this round.

One of the first recommendations goes as follows:
"Israel made painful sacrifices and took a risk to give peace a chance. They voluntarily removed over 9,000 settlers from Gaza and parts of the West Bank, abandoning homes, schools, businesses, and places of worship in the hopes of renewing the peace process."

And "Despite making an overture for peace by withdrawing from Gaza, Israel continues to face terrorist attacks, including rocket attacks and drive-by shootings of innocent Israelis. Israel knows that for a lasting peace, they must be free from terrorism and live with defensible borders."

Needless to say, much of the formulation is misleading. Most of the illegal settlers had already moved out because of mounting Palestinian resistance, pushing Israel to finally redeploy its military without any coordination with the Palestinian Authority. The decision was motivated by the need to disengage demographically from 1.5 million impoverished Palestinians and was based on cost-benefit analysis, not peace strategy. All of which partially explains why Israel has being laying siege to Gaza and reckons it has the right to intervene militarily at will ever since.

At any rate, the guide suggests that defenders and promoters of Israel's war need to use the kind of language that "may be hard for some of you to say, but every result of research confirms that an approach like this is the best way for an Israeli spokesperson to truly be heard and therefore make a difference".

Consider these choice tidbits: "Israel should not be bombing Gaza. I will repeat that. Israel should not be forced into a situation where they have to bomb Gaza. Likewise, Hamas should not be deliberately firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel. If the rockets stop, we can achieve that peace where Palestinian and Israeli children live in safety."

"When it comes time to talk about rockets, the best word is 'deliberate'. Don't say that Hamas is 'randomly rocketing Israel'. Do say 'Hamas is deliberately firing rockets into Israeli towns, communities, and civilian populations'."

"Paint a vivid picture of what life is like for Israeli civilians and children under the constant threat of rocket attack. You have to humanise why Gaza happened and what Israel has faced for weeks, months, even years."

Five-step guide to winning hearts

The guide advises the pro-Israel camps to "use rhetorical questions to gain permission from the audience for Israel's actions".
For example: "What should Israel do? Imagine, if thousands of rockets were fired into your community every day and every night? What would your country do? What would you want them to do? Don't we have a duty to protect our citizens?"

And here comes the worst bit of deception:

"Americans recognise that rocket attacks are an impediment to peace; but they do not accept rockets as an excuse to abandon peace. It is utterly expected that Israeli spokespersons will talk about proportionality and prevention of rocket attacks. But if you take the unexpected approach of talking about another 'p' word - the most important 'p' word to the public - you generate immense credibility."

So here's the five-step approach to talking about civilian casualties in Gaza:

  1. Empathy: "All human life is precious. We understand that the loss of one innocent Palestinian life is every bit as tragic as the loss of an Israeli life."
  2. Admission: "We admit that Israel isn't always successful at preventing civilian casualties..."
  3. Effort: "We remain committed to doing everything in our power to preventing civilian casualties."
  4. Examples: "Let me tell you how our armed forces are trained, tasked, and operate to ensure that Palestinian civilians remain safe."
  5. Turn tables: "It is a tragedy that Iran-backed Hamas shoots rockets at our civilians while hiding in their own ... This causes tragic deaths on both sides."
The guide concludes this chapter on the worst possible advice: "Israel should not give any more land for peace, because every time it does, it just gets more war."

Marwan Bishara is the senior political analyst at Al Jazeera.

Interesting read. Thought I'd share here.
 
The palestinians have no army, no backing from the west and no backing from their fellow arab leaders in the region neither - which goes how cowardly they are for those who still believe in them - The Saouds, the Hashemites etc. all traitors in US's pay. The only things left to Palestinians is God hence divine justice for the believers.
which believers? Where would this leave the Palestinians Christians.

If the Palestinians had made me their PR guy - and I'd do it for free - my first job would be to stop making this about 'Muslims v Jews'

A significant minority of the Palestinian population is Christian. I would play up that angle - and less of the 'Allahu Akbar'.

Next I'd get some fluent English speakers to propagate the message - Israel has cnuts like Mark Regev - and the Palestinians have Akhmed from across the road - who no one can understand, even with the subtitles.

Gotta be smart - then again, when have the Arabs done anything smart
 
Good post
You and the family safe?

Once we get away from the tough talk on the internet - there are real people in danger and being killed.

Hope you and your loved ones stay safe man - regardless of what side people take on this issue, I think we can all agree, we don't need to see or hear about innocents dying.
 
But we will not be there, remember? The "occupation" will be over and that recently-invented "Palestinian people" will be free at last. Must be more attractive than being second-class citizens in an apartheid state.

Israel will at best only allow a state resembling Gaza to exist in the West Bank

A recently invented people? They've lived in those lands for thousands of years
 
You and the family safe?

Once we get away from the tough talk on the internet - there are real people in danger and being killed.

Hope you and your loved ones stay safe man - regardless of what side people take on this issue, I think we can all agree, we don't need to see or hear about innocents dying.

Couldn't agree more, mate. We're just fine. Kids were shit scared when we woke them up to the sound of a siren at 3:30AM, and rushed them to the bomb shelter. Still, it was a one off in Haifa thankfully. Can't even imagine what things are like further down south, and indeed in Gaza.
 
Israel will at best only allow a state resembling Gaza to exist in the West Bank

Israel currently has no reason to take a risk in the WB similar to that it took in Gaza in 2005. Still, an offer was on the table for an independent demilitarized Palestine. It was turned down, like all previous peace initiatives were.

A recently invented people? They've lived in those lands for thousands of years

Yeah, they sure have.
 
Why the hell were they shelling? So much for precise targeting of militants.

I'd treat all reports coming out of Gaza with caution. You were all outraged at Israel when the Egyptian PM was photographed with a dead Palestinian boy during Cast Lead. Another Pallywood production, later exposed when it turned out the boy was killed by a failed Hamas rocket.

Regardless, the boys would have still been alive if Hamas accepted yesterday's Egyptian brokered ceasefire.
 
Israel currently has no reason to take a risk in the WB similar to that it took in Gaza in 2005. Still, an offer was on the table for an independent demilitarized Palestine. It was turned down, like all previous peace initiatives were

Israel took no risk in Gaza, it was a delibrate act to focus itself on the colonisation project in the West Bank, a few thousand settlers lost to impose hundreds of thousands in the West Bank
 
I'd treat all reports coming out of Gaza with caution. You were all outraged at Israel when the Egyptian PM was photographed with a dead Palestinian boy during Cast Lead. Another Pallywood production, later exposed when it turned out the boy was killed by a failed Hamas rocket.

Regardless, the boys would have still been alive if Hamas accepted yesterday's Egyptian brokered ceasefire.

They'd still be alive if Israel lifted the seige that has been going on for near a decade.
 
Israel took no risk in Gaza, it was a delibrate act to focus itself on the colonisation project in the West Bank, a few thousand settlers lost to impose hundreds of thousands in the West Bank

Which is why the WB was offered to the Palestinians by Olmert...good shout.
 
which believers? Where would this leave the Palestinians Christians.

If the Palestinians had made me their PR guy - and I'd do it for free - my first job would be to stop making this about 'Muslims v Jews'

A significant minority of the Palestinian population is Christian. I would play up that angle - and less of the 'Allahu Akbar'.

Next I'd get some fluent English speakers to propagate the message - Israel has cnuts like Mark Regev - and the Palestinians have Akhmed from across the road - who no one can understand, even with the subtitles.

Gotta be smart - then again, when have the Arabs done anything smart

You didn't understand what I meant by believers. Agree with the last part though.
 
Parts of the West Bank were offered by Olmert. Israel would keep check points, settlements, the Jordan Valley, a right to reinvade, control of the borders and air space. Like Gaza
The cornerstone of any peace agreement.
 
To be honest, there is no good choice here. It's a choice between bad and worse alternatives. We can't really tell the effect this round will have on Gazans, and on Hamas. So much has changed geo-politically since Cast Lead in 2009, and Hamas could be weakened substantially when this round of violence is over.

Hamas got there missiles from syria and iran and they sided with that sham fsa aka terrorists against the hand that feeded them with some weapons rather than the usual stones they used to throw. I reckon they wont have any missiles for the next round unless they patch up.
 
I don't blame the Israelis - if you keep telling yourself, you're a victim - you eventually start to believe it.

That of course doesn't absolve groups like Hamas and the very real danger they pose not to mention the crimes they have committed over the years - let's not forget suicide bombings are down because Israel has built huge protective walls and not so much because the groups there decided to play nice.

But my real beef is with white guilt. Europeans sat around and played with their schlongs while Hitler and the Nazis went about exterminating millions of Jews and to a lesser extent other 'undesirables'.

So white guilt decided there needed to be something tangible done in return - fair enough.

Hell I'm even ok with Israel taking over all of Jerusalem and other bits and pieces after the arabs tried to pull a fast one and got their butts handed to them in less than a week.

But you'd think at a certain point - there would be some fair play and the west would be a neutral arbitrator. But no...it seems this is an instance of white guilt that my children might grow up to see in action too.

I decided long ago I wouldn't give a feck about the middle east - especially because of dislike of my fellow muslim brothers in the region, but I keep getting drawn in emotionally.

Every time an innocent Israeli is killed - we get a background (so we should), but Palestinians are mere numbers - numbers for scorecards...numbers for people on all sides to manipulate. But no names or background stories for them - Close to 200 killed, I'll be generous and say half were terrorists. That still leaves 100 innocent dead.

Can you imagine the outrage if a 100 innocent Israelis were killed in less than 2 weeks?

But then I think - of course the Israelis don't care - it's not their job to care....the west? As I said - White Guilt. The media? lol - Sham media like Press TV don't count. So what does that leave us with? Oh yeah, the muslim ummah - the muslim brothers....The brothers who should either be standing with their brothers in solidarity or joining with the rest of the world to wipe out groups like Hamas.

Unfortunately the status quo seems to be good for all concerned. So we'll get outrage, and justification and finally a 'truce'.

Everyone will forget, both sides will hate the other that little bit more...and as that cnut Brendan Rogers said, 'WE GO AGAIN' - in a couple of years time.

*long rambling post* If it offends - good - I wanted to offend. There are no good guys here - assholes on all sides - assholes who've decided Palestinian deaths make for good politics.

Have you noticed how are the self proclaimed thekedars of muslims the isis are silent on the this offensive and continue to terrorize syria and iraq ? these wahabhi bastards along with there saudi and qatari masters will never fight against israel and hamas who are not much different from them backstabbed the only two countries who supplied them with weapons (syria and iran). Hamas even burned food and clothes given to palestinians by iran because they were supporting assad :wenger:

Muslim brotherhood, isis, fsa and any other ummah spouting organization is a fecking sham and are filled with wahabhi terrorists. And btw its got nothing to do with white guilt..it was a convinient ploy to get rid of the jews from europe.
 
Such hypocrisy on here. Not sure how I should word this because I wouldn't love to see the deaths of anyone but if only the tables were turned and the 200 + was on the other side there would be total outrage in the world.

I know the mods don't like videos but this topic is related. What do you guys think of George Galloway? This was during the Hezbollah Israel conflict.



Great video to watch - conflict aside it's always good to see someone rip into sky news.

EDIT: Conflicts like these further convince me that the terrorist organizations that speak against Israel all the time are nothing but paid mercenaries.
 
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