Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[holyland red]

so no actual evidence then. Hamas are terrorists, plain and simple. But the job of Israel and her leaders is to engage with the moderate Palestine leadership.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ze-israel-in-return-for-1967-borders-1.318835

Ah the 'my black friend' defence. I was expecting it.

Moderate 'Pro Palestine ignorants' like myself represent most of the world along with 138 nations who in 2012 in the General assembly recognized the right for Palestine statehood (among them 3 permanent members of the security council). Among those nations that voted 'yes' was my own country,India, with it's history of sheltering persecuted Jews who have never faced mass anti semitism from the native Hindus and in turn have contributed to India's culture. You know the ignorants who buy a shitload of weapons from Israel every year.

There is a reason why the PLO still refuses to change its charter, despite what they'd say in English to their sympathizers worldwide:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

For those not interested in browsing documents I'll highlight the following:

Article 19:
The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations; particularly the right to self-determination.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Yes. The toddlers that died had a choice of not firing the rockets.

I'm talking about adults who have the responsibility to protect their children. Sadly this doesn't seem to be their priority. Instead they advocate a mindset that glorifies death for the right cause and vote for leadership that institutionalises hatred and calls its people to be some sort of living sacrifice.

 

[shamans]

I'm talking about adults who have the responsibility to protect their children. Sadly this doesn't seem to be their priority. Instead they advocate a mindset that glorifies death for the right cause and vote for leadership that institutionalises hatred and calls its people to be some sort of living sacrifice.

Excuse me but have you been there? Have you met the people?

A few of them are idiots - really a few and the whole population have to take the impact? For the others there is now a choice. Fight or get the hell out and an overwhelming majority want to get the hell out of there.

The innocent women and children that died advocate a mindset that glorifies death so they deserved to die. Pathetic for someone to say that. It's nothing but state terrorism. Israel wants to terrorize the local population of Palestine and they are murdering innocents.

 

[holyland red]

I am sorry I don't understand that all. Can you please explain?

It's probably the Hamas charter which calls for the destruction of Israel.

No, it's not. It's warning given to Gazans ahead of IAF strikes. I know it doesn't count to much, but it's still better than what israelis get ahead of rocket launhing.

Clearly, the intent from both sides isn't even remotely the same.

 

[Kaos]

No, it's not. It's warning given to Gazans ahead of IAF strikes. I know it doesn't count to much, but it's still better than what israelis get ahead of rocket launhing.

Clearly, the intent from both sides isn't even remotely the same.

The leaflets make it OK then. It'll be the Palestinians fault if they get killed by devastating firepower while trapped in a dense city.

Its a clever PR stunt on Israel's account - drop leaflets first, then follow up with a rain of fire. Absolves them on anything that happens to the Palestinians afterwards.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Excuse me but have you been there? Have you met the people?

A few of them are idiots - really a few and the whole population have to take the impact? For the others there is now a choice. Fight or get the hell out and an overwhelming majority want to get the hell out of there.

The innocent women and children that died advocate a mindset that glorifies death so they deserved to die. Pathetic for someone to say that. It's nothing but state terrorism. Israel wants to terrorize the local population of Palestine and they are murdering innocents.

Where are the hundreds of thousands ordinary Gazan protesting day and night against being held hostage by 'a few idiots'? Where is the Gazan outcry to the international community for support and assistance to finally free them from the rocket firing few idiots who achieve nothing but only bring destruction in return?

I don't know what you mean by 'state terrorism' nor to what purpose Israel would want to fly airstrikes against civilians?

 

[Dante]

No, it's not. It's warning given to Gazans ahead of IAF strikes. I know it doesn't count to much, but it's still better than what israelis get ahead of rocket launhing.

Clearly, the intent from both sides isn't even remotely the same.

"Hello fish in the barrel. We're going to shoot at you now."

 

[Mihajlovic]

The leaflets make it OK then. It'll be the Palestinians fault if they get killed by devastating firepower while trapped in a dense city.

Its a clever PR stunt on Israel's account - drop leaflets first, then follow up with a rain of fire. Absolves them on anything that happens to the Palestinians afterwards.

Seriously Kaos, what is the logic behind shooting nearly thousand rockets at Israel? I'd love to understand the motivation and the rationale. Wouldn't common sense dictate that you stop as soon as you realize your tactics are completely counter-productive?

 

[Kaos]

Seriously Kaos, what is the logic behind shooting nearly thousand rockets at Israel? I'd love to understand the motivation and the rationale. Wouldn't common sense dictate that you stop as soon as you realize your tactics are completely counter-productive?

There isn't any logic. Its counterproductive and gets your people killed in the backlash, I'd agree with that. Do I agree with it? No. Can I guarantee I wouldn't be doing the same in their circumstances? Honestly, I can't guarantee that.

These rocket attacks are just a narrow snapshot of the broader picture though. This crisis didn't start with Hamas firing rockets nor did it even start with the murder of those Israeli boys. This is what Israel and her allies seem oblivious to, or rather choose to conveniently ignore.

 

[IhabX7]

There isn't any logic. Its counterproductive and gets your people killed in the backlash, I'd agree with that. Do I agree with it? No. Can I guarantee I wouldn't be doing the same in their circumstances? Honestly, I can't guarantee that.

These rocket attacks are just a narrow snapshot of the broader picture though. This crisis didn't start with Hamas firing rockets nor did it even start with the murder of those Israeli boys. This is what Israel and her allies seem oblivious to, or rather choose to conveniently ignore.

100%. It's beyond a joke to portray that all this is about the rockets.

 

[eddiebb]

Seriously Kaos, what is the logic behind shooting nearly thousand rockets at Israel? I'd love to understand the motivation and the rationale. Wouldn't common sense dictate that you stop as soon as you realize your tactics are completely counter-productive?

If you lived every day in fear that your entire family/street could be blown up and that the Gestapo IDF might knock on your door any time of the day or night to detain one of your family members, particularly one of your kids, on non-existent charges, I daresay you would be angry about it as well? Would this be your exact reaction? Who knows. But I don't think you'd just stand there and take it would you?

The people are angry and desperate and are responding accordingly. It's not logical but then a cornered animal doesn't think logically, does it?

 

[Eboue]

How do expect a person in the middle of a war to actually respond or think
rationaly without bias?

I don't. Like I've said, I understand where he is coming from. But thinking with bias hasn't worked for all these years so maybe an alternate approach is in order.

 

[holyland red]

"Hello fish in the barrel. We're going to shoot at you now."

Not quite, as the map clearly indicates. I don't think many Israelis flea the country when we are bombarded either. Simply warning to seek shelter in safer quarters. Perhaps not ideal, but clear evidence that there is every attempt to avoid "collateral damage" to some extent.

 

[Mihajlovic]

There isn't any logic. Its counterproductive and gets your people killed in the backlash, I'd agree with that. Do I agree with it? No. Can I guarantee I wouldn't be doing the same in their circumstances? Honestly, I can't guarantee that.

These rocket attacks are just a narrow snapshot of the broader picture though. This crisis didn't start with Hamas firing rockets nor did it even start with the murder of those Israeli boys. This is what Israel and her allies seem oblivious to, or rather choose to conveniently ignore.

I agree that there is a broader picture to the whole conflict but this current crisis is a direct result of Hamas et al firing rockets and IDF bombing them in return. There were no airstrikes and 200+Palestinian deaths in WB this week for the very obvious reason that no rockets were fired from the WB. This is what I'm trying to say, this bullshit rocketing needs to stop immediately so that no more civilians get killed.

 

[Kaos]

I agree that there is a broader picture to the whole conflict but this current crisis is a direct result of Hamas et al firing rockets and IDF bombing them in return. There were no airstrikes and 200+Palestinian deaths in WB this week for the very obvious reason that no rockets were fired from the WB. This is what I'm trying to say, this bullshit rocketing needs to stop immediately so that no more civilians get killed.

Rocket fire stopping won't stop Israel killing Palestinians.

I suppose we should debunk this myth that Israel only kills in response to rocket fire (focus on the top right pie chart):

Additional and more contemporary source: http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/07/10/when-does-the-cycle-of-violence-start/

What wasn't mentioned was that back in May two unarmed Palestinian teenagers were shot dead n the West Bank by the Israeli military, not a mention of that anywhere in the media nor was there any outcry. The teenagers also posed no threat to the soldiers.

 

[MoneyMay]

A bit bizarre that Hamas turned down the ceasefire given how many casualties they are taking in Gaza. Its almost as if they're trying to milk the spectacle of whats happening to score a PR victory, while many are dying.

Nothing was offered to Hamas:

Hamas did not reject a ceasefire. Sami Abu Zuhri has already stated that they weren't asked to stop. What has essentially happened is that Israel and Egypt have negotiated some sort of deal without informing Hamas. We then blame Hamas for rejecting a ceasefire that wasn't offered to them. Israel then uses this as a pretext to continue the killing. A bit too predictable.

The truth is unfortunately being manipulated and distorted. The rewriting of history is repulsive - just take a look at media's reporting on how the recent conflict supposedly started. As for Mihajlovic's post (sorry for the late reply), it's not that simple. All that ceasefire means is that Israel will continue to attack while Hamas cease fire.

 

[holyland red]

There isn't any logic. Its counterproductive and gets your people killed in the backlash, I'd agree with that. Do I agree with it? No. Can I guarantee I wouldn't be doing the same in their circumstances? Honestly, I can't guarantee that.

These rocket attacks are just a narrow snapshot of the broader picture though. This crisis didn't start with Hamas firing rockets nor did it even start with the murder of those Israeli boys. This is what Israel and her allies seem oblivious to, or rather choose to conveniently ignore.

What did it start with then? Perhaps we could have your input?

 

[holyland red]

Rocket fire stopping won't stop Israel killing Palestinians.

I suppose we should debunk this myth that Israel only kills in response to rocket fire (focus on the top right pie chart):

Additional and more contemporary source: http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/07/10/when-does-the-cycle-of-violence-start/

What wasn't mentioned was that back in May two unarmed Palestinian teenagers were shot dead n the West Bank by the Israeli military, not a mention of that anywhere in the media nor was there any outcry. The teenagers also posed no threat to the soldiers.

Visualizing Palestine? You could do better than that, Kaos.

 

[holyland red]

Nothing was offered to Hamas:

The truth is unfortunately being manipulated and distorted. The rewriting of history is repulsive - just take a look at media's reporting on how the recent conflict supposedly started. As for Mihajlovic's post (sorry for the late reply), it's not that simple. All that ceasefire means is that Israel will continue to attack while Hamas cease fire.

While that's a gold medal winner in acrobatics right there.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Looks like you've got your hands full here HR. My help is not needed. The good folks of conscience that have remained here at the Caf deserve credit for their resilience.

I'm avoiding this thread for several reasons. 1. I'd like to be able to post my photo report of the United vs Inter match from DC before getting banned. 2. Don't have time to rant on the obvious problems that are becoming more and more evident to the world. 3. These conversations rarely reach anybody that will enlighten folks or lead to a solution of the situation.

 

[shamans]

Where are the hundreds of thousands ordinary Gazan protesting day and night against being held hostage by 'a few idiots'? Where is the Gazan outcry to the international community for support and assistance to finally free them from the rocket firing few idiots who achieve nothing but only bring destruction in return?

I don't know what you mean by 'state terrorism' nor to what purpose Israel would want to fly airstrikes against civilians?

I am not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. The people of Gaza have been protesting for support for ages now. And like I said, Israels purpose is to create a sense of terror among the Palestinians so they don't even think about any resistance against them. Against a land that isn't there's to begin with.

 

[shamans]

I agree that there is a broader picture to the whole conflict but this current crisis is a direct result of Hamas et al firing rockets and IDF bombing them in return. There were no airstrikes and 200+Palestinian deaths in WB this week for the very obvious reason that no rockets were fired from the WB. This is what I'm trying to say, this bullshit rocketing needs to stop immediately so that no more civilians get killed.

While I really don't want to cheer the death of anyone - but only if that was the case. How many of the causalities are Hamas militants? How many have anything to do with the rockets being fired?

Yes I agree with your last part. The rocket firing needs to stop but simply cannot justify the terrorism from Israels end.

 

[thegregster]

What did it start with then? Perhaps we could have your input?

It started because of the obvious flaws in the Zionist movement.

What to do with the millions of Palestinians who were going to be shafted by the formation of Israel. They had no real plan to deal with the native Arab population long term.

The Zionist movement lacked vision. It still does to this day. Its only long term plan is to ban the Arab people returning to their homes and keep the ones who remain under military rule. This policy will never lead to peace.

 

[holyland red]

It started because of the obvious flaws in the Zionist movement.

What to do with the millions of Palestinians who were going to be shafted by the formation of Israel. They had no real plan to deal with the native Arab population long term.

The Zionist movement lacked vision. It still does to this day. Its only long term plan is to ban the Arab people returning to their homes and keep the ones who remain under military rule. This policy will never lead to peace.

Millions of Palestinians "shafted"? Really? Jewish refugees from Arab countries far outnumber the Palestinians who left their homes, some of which at the request of their Arab brothers who led them to believe that they'd return when the Jews are thrown to the sea.

Why is it that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship will never swap it to a Palestinian one in a future two-state solution involving land swap? Is that because of flaws in the Zionist movement or is it because they are grateful for being lucky enough to live in Israel?

 

[thegregster]

Why is it that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship will never swap it to a Palestinian one in a future two-state solution involving land swap? Is that because of flaws in the Zionist movement or is it because they are grateful for being lucky enough to live in Israel?

Exactly. They want to stay where they have lived all their lives and their families have lived for thousands of years.

Zionism still has no plan to deal with them.

 

[thegregster]

Millions of Palestinians "shafted"? Really? Jewish refugees from Arab countries far outnumber the Palestinians who left their homes, some of which at the request of their Arab brothers who led them to believe that they'd return when the Jews are thrown to the sea.

Why is it that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship will never swap it to a Palestinian one in a future two-state solution involving land swap? Is that because of flaws in the Zionist movement or is it because they are grateful for being lucky enough to live in Israel?

Exactly. Zionism has no vision. It was fairly predictable that huge immigration of Jewish people to British mandate Palestine would lead to major trouble. It was the Zionism movement which started changing demographics in the region. If you're going to create a new state the least you could do is actually have a plan for the local population. Zionism always wanted to be in the supremacy in the region. With supremacy come obligations to the minority.

 

[holyland red]

While I really don't want to cheer the death of anyone - but only if that was the case. How many of the causalities are Hamas militants? How many have anything to do with the rockets being fired?

Yes I agree with your last part. The rocket firing needs to stop but simply cannot justify the terrorism from Israels end.

How do we know the numbers?

Exactly. They want to stay where they have lived all their lives and their families have lived for thousands of years.

Zionism still has no plan to deal with them.

It would be useful to our discussion if you read my posts before replying. I'm not talking about evacuating Arabs from their homes, but moving the border fence so they find themselves in a future Palestinian state, free from our Gestapo-like methods, instead of remaining second-class Israeli citizens suffering from the flaws of Zionism.

 

[Kaos]

Why is it that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship will never swap it to a Palestinian one in a future two-state solution involving land swap? Is that because of flaws in the Zionist movement or is it because they are grateful for being lucky enough to live in Israel?

Because they anticipate that whichever state Israel agrees for them will be fragmented, pseudo-autonomous and generally shorthanded.

 

[holyland red]

Exactly. Zionism has no vision. It was fairly predictable that huge immigration of Jewish people to British mandate Palestine would lead to major trouble. It was the Zionism movement which started changing demographics in the region. If you're going to create a new state the least you could do is actually have a plan for the local population. Zionism always wanted to be in the supremacy in the region. With supremacy come obligations to the minority.

Are you familiar with the Faisal-Weizmann agreement?

 

[holyland red]

Because they anticipate that whichever state Israel agrees for them will be fragmented, pseudo-autonomous and generally shorthanded.

Wrong. Because they appreciate the state they live in, and because they also have a very clear real-time view of what their lives would have been like if it wasn't for the State of Israel. These past 3-4 years have only highlighted their good fortunes.

 

[thegregster]

Are you familiar with the Faisal-Weizmann agreement?

It didnt represent the Palestinians. Hence it was worthless.

It totally went over the heads of the natives.

Also was Faisal not promised
"the Jews did not propose to set up a government of their own but wished to work under British protection, to colonize and develop Palestine without encroaching on any legitimate interests".

 

[Mihajlovic]

Exactly. Zionism has no vision. It was fairly predictable that huge immigration of Jewish people to British mandate Palestine would lead to major trouble. It was the Zionism movement which started changing demographics in the region. If you're going to create a new state the least you could do is actually have a plan for the local population. Zionism always wanted to be in the supremacy in the region. With supremacy come obligations to the minority.

Zionism has no vision? Isn't the creation of Israel as a national homeland for all Jews exactly the fulfilment of the Zionist vision, or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Kaos]

Wrong. Because they appreciate the state they live in, and because they also have a very clear real-time view of what their lives would have been like if it wasn't for the State of Israel. These past 3-4 years have only highlighted their good fortunes.

I'm sure they're grateful to the Israelis for offering them a sanctuary and reprieve from the macabre situation in Palestine created by the...erm Israelis? Logic doesn't add up.

 

[thegregster]

Zionism has no vision? Isn't the creation of Israel as a national homeland for all Jews exactly the fulfilment of the Zionist vision, or am I misunderstanding something?

Was the Zionist vision for 100,000 people to be killed?

Was the Zionist vision that millions of people would lose their homes and have no right to return?

Was the Zionist vision 7 million Palestinians under Military rule in the West bank and Gaza?

Obviously none of this was wanted by the founders of Israel but it was pretty obvious that such a terrible scenario would happen.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Jon Stewart on the conflict.



"The Israeli military warns Gaza residents of imminent bombing, with a smaller warning bombing. An amuse-boom if you will."

 

[Dante]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/arsenal-star-mesut-ozil-donates-3m-brazil-world-cup-winnings-gaza-1456910

Germany and Arsenal superstar Mesut Ozil is to donate his £350,000 [$600,000] World Cup winnings to the children of Gaza following his country's triumph in the global spectacle, according to the Middle East Monitor.

As the conflict in the Middle East rages following a failed ceasefire, Ozil is set to give the £237,000 bonus he received for helping Germany win the final, and the £118,000 he received for Germany's semi-final win, to the occupied territory. He is however yet to confirm the actual beneficiaries of his largesse.

Ozil is of Turkish descent and a practising Muslim who recites the Quran before games. He controversially opted not to fast during the tournament, which fell in the holy month of Ramadan in which Muslims fast from dawn until sunset.

Ozil reportedly caused controversy when he declined to shake a Fifa official's hand because of his support for Israel.

Arsenal's club-record signing (£42.5 million) has quickly settled to life in England, winning the FA Cup with the Gunners before playing an integral role in Germany's march to victory in Brazil.

A nine-day outbreak of conflict between Israel and militant group Hamas has seen over 1,000 rockets fired into Israel and over 1,300 airstrikes on the Gaza Strip.

Palestinian officials have said that 207 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's Operation Protective Edge while one Israeli has died in southern Israel after being hit by a mortar.

The Gaza Strip is a narrow territory occupied by Israel currently under a land, sea and air blockade. According to the United Nations and aid agencies, humanitarian conditions have continued to deteriorate rapidly because of the blockade.

In addition to Ozil's act of generosity, other Muslim representatives at the World Cup have also sent their prize money to the occupied coastal enclave.

After reaching the second round of the tournament, Algeria donated their £5.25m prize money to the people of Gaza.

Algeria striker Islam Slimani announced that the entire squad would donate the money to the territory because "they need it more than us", according to a report in the Daily Mail.

 

[barros]

If Holyland Red is in fact living in Israel at this moment, it's difficult for him to read and reply with a rational that other OOT's are expecting. If you are living daily in an environment where the enemy is firing on you, you'll naturally be defensive, Iron doom or not. It's all well and good sitting in Cork, Delhi and Pasadena preaching peace, but it's difficult for Israelites and Palestinians. My heart goes out to the victims who are caught between Israel's bombings and Hamas' rockets, and it only increases the divide. Poor and innocent people suffer while Israeli forces and Hamas continue to pick 'strategic' targets for destruction.

Why didn't Hamas take up the ceasefire offer if innocent civilians are murdered daily? Why don't Israel give up on the bombings when it knows that it has an Iron Dome that can protect it's civilians better than the people at Gaza? Internet warriors (myself included), often see logic in utopia, but the problem here is there is no one side which is right. A conflict continues to arise because there are two warring factions and both want something that the other can't accept and it's no use blaming one faction for this. Most Muslims want free Palestine, and most of the Christians and Jews (why the Christians though, didn't the Jews crucify Christ?) side with Israel. feck knows when peace would prevail.

No, the Romans did.

 

[Mozza]

Why is it that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship will never swap it to a Palestinian one in a future two-state solution involving land swap? Is that because of flaws in the Zionist movement or is it because they are grateful for being lucky enough to live in Israel?

It is because they have witnessed how Israel treats their brethren in the occupied territories

 

[lem8sh]

4 children killed on the beach in Gaza, fecking cowards.

 

[thegregster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nian-children-on-Gaza-beach-killing-four.html