And likewise, Israeli government should do whatever required in order to remove the rocket threat. Firing artillery back is not an option, so more accurate weapons are used. Too bad those are not sophisticated enough to only kill the bad guys.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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And likewise, Israeli government should do whatever required in order to remove the rocket threat. Firing artillery back is not an option, so more accurate weapons are used. Too bad those are not sophisticated enough to only kill the bad guys.
But it's not working on your stated goal. And not only is it not working, it is killing a bunch of innocent civilians. I think that if you have two options which don't work, the one that kills fewer innocent civilians is the best choice.
HR you do know that you don't sound moved by the Palestinians death toll in the slightest right?
Because we can replace our government when we feel it does not do its duty. That takes more than a one-off general elections. Women rights, and those of minorities also come into play, as is the fact that political rivals are not being thrown off roof tops here.
I don't have facebook. It's clear, over the past century, Israel is expanding and taking over territory. Why are they trying to massacre a population? There's only so much the States can cover up for you.
No you can't. You have to wait till an election happens.
No they just get assassinated from time to time.
To be honest, there is no good choice here. It's a choice between bad and worse alternatives. We can't really tell the effect this round will have on Gazans, and on Hamas. So much has changed geo-politically since Cast Lead in 2009, and Hamas could be weakened substantially when this round of violence is over.
I think Israel is quite happy for Hamas to remain, which is why they will never try to completely wipe Hamas out. Hamas provides the perfect excuse.
I'm sure you could educate us with a time-table.
Israel withdrew from Sinai in 1979, allowed Arafat in following Oslo, withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza in 2005. So much for territorial expansion.
What would a proportionate response be? Israel can't just send a bunch of coppers inside Gaza to suspected firing sites.
Cheap shot, Ihab. I don't have the luxury of neutrality. Of course I'd love the fire to stop, and for the ME to witness peaceful co-existence. But right now my own kids are being targeted by rockets fired from populated areas in Gaza? Would you tell me what would be your reaction if our roles were reversed?
BTW, How moved were you when the three Israeli teenagers were shot from close range after they were kidnapped on their way home from school?
Excuse for what?
A bit bizarre that Hamas turned down the ceasefire given how many casualties they are taking in Gaza. Its almost as if they're trying to milk the spectacle of whats happening to score a PR victory, while many are dying.
Settlement and land grabs.
In Gaza?!
HR, You must really miss my input on these discussions to be dragging me in during these times *Ugh*
Hamas & Hezbollah are bad, but I haven't been paying attention to the Caf over the past couple years close enough to say that people "...welcomed Hamas taking over GS". The Palestinian people had been banned from holding elections, HR might have misunderstood people's reaction when they were permitted to go to the polls again. Most people in the USA can't stand Democrats or Republicans, yet 1/2 the population manages to get out and vote.
No matter how desperate the people of Gaza and the West Bank become, I could never understand the reasoning of shooting bottle rocket type weapons at somebody with 10 million times the fire power. My point is, Hamas are complete idiots. Hezbollah are no different in this respect.
Israel's IDF provokes the worst of the Palestinian people. Reports of IDF bullying the children of Hebron over the past couple years. (I could post 1,000's of articles here to back up this fact) CNN, Fox News, ABC & the rest of mainstream media can twist this story all they like, but the story is becoming better detailed through independent peace groups ie. * http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/ Israel is said to break more cease fire agreements despite the fodder we hear/see on the idiot box.
...and Holyland Red knows very well, I don't choose to condemn only Israel. Look at the living conditions in the West Bank and GS. I don't know of any rocket factories in Palestine. Iran and Syria have foolishly aided in smuggling in crap weaponry with no guidance systems. So, we need to be fair. Hamas aren't targeting aggressive entities.
Personally, I think Netanyahu is a complete moron for carrying on with the usual heavy handed response. The region is becoming more violent, Islamic radicals are better armed and organized, and it will only attract the worst of the region to the fight. ISIS or ISIL whatever they are calling themselves this week are the example. These extremely vicious extremists are savvy at social media and organize in a way not seen before. Ten or so years ago, I told HR that things would get so bad for Israel... seems we are getting closer to those more dangerous times. Seeing Israel bomb sections of Gaza so that it looks like the rubble of Homs, Syria ...this is not good, not at all. I wish I had more time to squabble back and forth with HR over this, but I help manage a half dozen other independent news media sites. Besides this normally gets turned around into a circle jerk and I get banned for posting the truth.
*HR, You know I've got hundreds of links that back up my perspectives of the region (now, more than ever) I used restraint in this post.
My short answer to all this... Netanyahu took advantage of the kidnapping/killing of the 3 in Hebron for mass settlement expansion. The destruction of GS on this level can mean nothing less.
Easier to be shot down.
Completely agree. One reason why I have completely avoided visiting the oil rich Arab countries. People tell me they're beautiful, but I don't feel right going.
Yes. The toddlers that died had a choice of not firing the rockets.
What are the potential outcomes though?
1) continuing on like this
2) total annihilation of the Palestinians
3) a peaceful solution
You don't want rockets fired at your children so I assume number two is not your goal. Even like most hateful people like fearless would probably admit that the global community won't let number two happen. So we are left with number three. Even in ths most brutal real politik terms, the best way to solve this is to stop the massively disproportionate killing of civilians. Even if we accept the killing of civilians as morally fine, all it does is create the next generation of people shooting rockets. Except sooner or later, their technology will outpace the defense technology.
Anyone who wants a peaceful solution should condemn what is going on right now. On a moral level. On a legal level. On a practical level.
I understand that emotion causes such responses but the only way to justify the positions you've taken is to believe that Israeli life is worth more than Palestinian life.
If Holyland Red is in fact living in Israel at this moment, it's difficult for him to read and reply with a rational that other OOT's are expecting. If you are living daily in an environment where the enemy is firing on you, you'll naturally be defensive, Iron doom or not. It's all well and good sitting in Cork, Delhi and Pasadena preaching peace, but it's difficult for Israelites and Palestinians. My heart goes out to the victims who are caught between Israel's bombings and Hamas' rockets, and it only increases the divide. Poor and innocent people suffer while Israeli forces and Hamas continue to pick 'strategic' targets for destruction.
Why didn't Hamas take up the ceasefire offer if innocent civilians are murdered daily? Why don't Israel give up on the bombings when it knows that it has an Iron Dome that can protect it's civilians better than the people at Gaza? Internet warriors (myself included), often see logic in utopia, but the problem here is there is no one side which is right. A conflict continues to arise because there are two warring factions and both want something that the other can't accept and it's no use blaming one faction for this. Most Muslims want free Palestine, and most of the Christians and Jews (why the Christians though, didn't the Jews crucify Christ?) side with Israel. feck knows when peace would prevail.
Why didn't Hamas take up the ceasefire offer if innocent civilians are murdered daily? Why don't Israel give up on the bombings when it knows that it has an Iron Dome that can protect it's civilians better than the people at Gaza? Internet warriors (myself included), often see logic in utopia, but the problem here is there is no one side which is right. A conflict continues to arise because there are two warring factions and both want something that the other can't accept and it's no use blaming one faction for this. Most Muslims want free Palestine, and most of the Christians and Jews (why the Christians though, didn't the Jews crucify Christ?) side with Israel. feck knows when peace would prevail.
I miss your comic input, to be honest.
Well, that's because it happened a few years back, independent-media Bob.
So cellphones and video cameras broke the Jewish hegemony over world media?
So you probably missed on the fact we actually supply those with electricity...This deserves a documentary in one of your independent media outlets.Personally, I think Netanyahu is a complete moron for carrying on with the usual heavy handed response. The region is becoming more violent, Islamic radicals are better armed and organized, and it will only attract the worst of the region to the fight. ISIS or ISIL whatever they are calling themselves this week are the example. These extremely vicious extremists are savvy at social media and organize in a way not seen before. Ten or so years ago, I told HR that things would get so bad for Israel... seems we are getting closer to those more dangerous times. Seeing Israel bomb sections of Gaza so that it looks like the rubble of Homs, Syria ...this is not good, not at all. I wish I had more time to squabble back and forth with HR over this, but I help manage a half dozen other independent news media sites. Besides this normally gets turned around into a circle jerk and I get banned for posting the truth.
Well, guess what...things are far from rosy here, but people don't often get blown to pieces on the streets here, we have reasonable protection from rocket fire, joined the OECD, added a couple more Nobel prizes in science, held several democratic elections (too many for my liking
) and the list go on. In the meantime Hizballah has been crippled, Syria and Iraq don't really exist as sovereign states anymore and the Islamic Spring that clouded Egypt (and which was celebrated here) is over.I'm afraid it's 1 for the foreseeable future, and the reasons for that are the essence of this debate.
I'm an Israeli, and can't be as neutral as you are. It's not an Israeli thing to side with your own.
It's a balanced, yet inaccurate post. It's wrong to draw parallels between the two. Hamas deliberately target civilians.
We didn't invest billions in Iron Dome protection so that our Arab neighbours enjoy the freedom of shooting rockets at us, did we?
That other point is simply not true
I'm no expert on this matter, so I will make mistakes in my post. I'm just saying that Israel could make some concession based on their defensive capabilities. If Israel retaliates with as many rockets as Hamas, the casualties will be much higher in Gaza. Doesn't give Hamas the right to fire more missiles mind you, which is why I'm simply not understanding their stance of not taking the ceasefire seriously.
Regarding the point about Christians, you will find that it is true for countries such as US.
2. Many would, just like many Arab wish Israel evaporated. Both not going to happen.
3. Hamas does not accept Israel's right to exist within any borders. There is good reason to believe the PLO doesn't either, but that's a broader issue to this current round of violence.
I know many Israeli Arabs who are my superiors, colleagues, students, family friends. In fact I live in a city which is a model for co-existence. The other day the Arab gardener brought his kid to work with him (summer school break), and we invited him in to play with our kids. They had great time together, without sharing a language. "Pro-Palestinian" ignorants like yourself only do them disservice.
Israel can not make concessions when its enemy seeks its annihilation. It's as simple as that. Read the Hamas covenant.
From our perspective (outsiders), you just end up creating more militants. I don't expect you to agree, but I'm just saying what we think is true. Economic prosperity in Gaza is the only way that people will be freed from the war monger's agenda driven bullshit
Again, read the Hamas covenant to get an idea on who is cuurently in control of the GS. And they were the people's democratic choice. I don't know the extent of support Hamas enjoys these days, but as predicted there won't be another round of general election there to find out.
I absolutely agree with the second comment. Too bad the only industry in the GS is that of rockets. They used to have a busy smuggling industry, heavily taxed by Hamas, but a-Sisi has done a fair job intercepting that.
I absolutely agree with the second comment. Too bad the only industry in the GS is that of rockets. They used to have a busy smuggling industry, heavily taxed by Hamas, but a-Sisi has done a fair job intercepting that.
Yet the figures on the ground proves otherwise with the long list of civilians deaths on palestinians side each time Israel goes in its war mongering mission. And spare me the bullshit of collateral damage.
And HR, while you keep drubbing up the fearmongering of your enemies wanting annihilation and destruction of Israel, it seems irony is lost on you when you continues to annihilate apalestinians with its seige of Gaza.
No matter how bad you try to twist this but Netanyahu and his cronies are as bad as Hamas.
No, they don't.
A lot of people here only commenting based on what they have heard and perceiving whether its right or wrong.
From a actual neutral point of view without forming a biased opinion, its really a big big mess only because of the egos on both sides. Now technically Israel can't be blamed for shielding its citizens. Its awful that so many bloody people have lost their lives. But how can only one side be blamed if there is attack from both sides? The technical capabilities is a different issue. But the intent is the same from both sides and its disgusting.
However, you can argue that Israel being the stronger side, could limit the damage on the other side or at least efficiently attack only where they are attacked from.
From a actual neutral point of view without forming a biased opinion, its really a big big mess only because of the egos on both sides. Now technically Israel can't be blamed for shielding its citizens. Its awful that so many bloody people have lost their lives. But how can only one side be blamed if there is attack from both sides? The technical capabilities is a different issue. But the intent is the same from both sides and its disgusting.
However, you can argue that Israel being the stronger side, could limit the damage on the other side or at least efficiently attack only where they are attacked from.
How do expect a person in the middle of a war to actually respond or think rationaly without bias?
I don't really think I agree much on any topic with you. But this is a top top post.
so no actual evidence then. Hamas are terrorists, plain and simple. But the job of Israel and her leaders is to engage with the moderate Palestine leadership.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ze-israel-in-return-for-1967-borders-1.318835
Ah the 'my black friend' defence. I was expecting it.
Moderate 'Pro Palestine ignorants' like myself represent most of the world along with 138 nations who in 2012 in the General assembly recognized the right for Palestine statehood (among them 3 permanent members of the security council). Among those nations that voted 'yes' was my own country,India, with it's history of sheltering persecuted Jews who have never faced mass anti semitism from the native Hindus and in turn have contributed to India's culture. You know the ignorants who buy a shitload of weapons from Israel every year.
I was.
What a poor attempt at being impartial.
I am sorry I don't understand that all. Can you please explain?