Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

But most people consider Assad, Hamas, et al. to be indefensible cnuts. For some reason, there are influential people in the world who don't think the same thing about Israel. That rankles with the masses who want their suffering to be acknowledged rather than brushed under the carpet.

The length of time the injustice has been going on despite widespread international condemnation also plays a part. It's been going on for so long that the conflict has pretty much created the blueprint for Islamic extremism, and that's a bell that can't be unrung. Without a US mideast policy revolving around the interests of Israel, the region would be a much different place and that's why the issue garners so much attention. It's also a bit of red-button topic in the Arab Street because of the history of colonialism in the region. Leaders know this and exploit sentiment amongst regular citizens. Like it or not, it's become hugely symbolic for reasons greater than the number of people being killed.
 
africanspur said:
Did I merely imagine the Yugoslav wars?
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I am talking about post-war behaviour and reactions to injustice etc. The Palestinians do not have the monopoly on human suffering and land loss. Others have been through hardships as well but chose a non-violent approach afterwards. People make it sound as if kidnapping, murdering and firing rockets is the only possible and necessary means by which to fight and correct an unjust event dating back more than sixty years. I don't believe, however, that employing a decade long campaign of suicide/ rocket attacks aimed at murdering innocent civilians is either right nor does it achieve anything.

What Hamas is doing right now is not just wrong but mentally ill since they are willingly endangering the lives of their own people.
 
Hellboy said:
I meant holyland red and the people who have the same ideas not you.
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It isn't about me. I seriously doubt holyland red has build or supports in anyway a shrine to a killer of 29 people. Yes, it isn't the same Likud, it has some forces that are trying to pull it further to the right. But overall, certainly in Israel, the crazy loonies who supporterd that massacre and actions like that are a small bunch.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I am talking about post-war behaviour and reactions to injustice etc. The Palestinians do not have the monopoly on human suffering and land loss. Others have been through hardships as well but chose a non-violent approach afterwards. People make it sound as if kidnapping, murdering and firing rockets is the only possible and necessary means by which to fight and correct an unjust event dating back more than sixty years. I don't believe, however, that employing a decade long campaign of suicide/ rocket attacks aimed at murdering innocent civilians is either right nor does it achieve anything.

What Hamas is doing right now is not just wrong but mentally ill since they are willingly endangering the lives of their own people.
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Kudos you guys have moved on from the Balkans war. Respect!

The fundamental difference in this conflict is the Palestinians have not yet got the right to self-determination in areas such as nationality, citizenship, residency, and land ownership. freedoms such as the right to be free and live a life in dignity and free from oppression, occupation and colonisation then I'm sure they would take the same path of moving forward just as you guys have done so well.

PS: I do not condone rockets being fired indiscriminately. The idiots need to recognise this is counter-productive in their legitimate struggle.
 
peterstorey said:
Well he's an ethnic Serb, a people who have an independent homeland (which war criminals like Mladic and Karadzic tried to 'expand').
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No idea how this is connected to anything I've said in my earlier post. Are you being weird?
 
africanspur said:
How does a people have a historical right to a land? Especially when another people (neither the people who drove the Jews out in the first place nor the ones who'd spent the past few hundred years killing them culminating in the Holocaust) have been living there for hundreds of years at the least?
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Apparently God has promised them a piece of land.. go figure. You get all kinds of talk about crazy ideologies like 72 virgins for shaheeds as a motive for a suicide bomber and what not, but this is just as loony and gets no mention.
 
Israeli Politician Declares ‘War’ on ‘the Palestinian People’

The political climate in Israel is so ugly that at least one member of Knesset is comparing Palestinian children to “little snakes”—and announcing that she’s ready to declare war on the entire Palestinian population.

Ayelet Shaked—a Knesset member of the religious nationalist Jewish Home party—took to Facebook with inflammatory remarks about the Palestinians on July 1, the day before the brutal murder of 17-year-old Palestinian Mohammed Abu Khudair, as reported first at Electronic Intifada.

“This is a war,” wrote Shaked, who has been routinely denounced in the Israeli press as an extremist. “Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.”

The following day, Khudair was kidnapped in Jerusalem and later burned alive. Six Israeli suspects were arrested on Sunday in connection to the murder, which set off a slew of protests throughout the region.

Tensions between Israel and Palestine have reached a fresh peak over the last week since the discovery of the bodies of Yeshiva students Gil-Ad Shaer, Eyal Yifrah and Naftali Fraenk, who disappeared from the Gush Etzion area in June. The Israeli government blamed Hamas for the murders.

Although Hamas alleges that it was not responsible for the deaths of the students, spokesman Abu Zuhri said that his organization is ready and willing to strike against Israel.

“They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads,” Shaked writes. “Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...n-declares-war-on-the-palestinian-people.html
 
Right, we're not going to turn this thread into a spam fest of war images. Lets stick to discussions.
 
I don't agree with the image spam but the contrast in imagery of Palestinian children being maimed and corpse ridden compared to Israelis looking concerned inside a war shelter does portray a compelling discrepancy.
 
Gentlemen :toppa:

Nice to see some things haven't changed...Israeli army doing a bit of landscaping in Gaza again - thrice in a six year period.

Can we expect this to become an annual ritual soon?

Anyone have the latest scorecard?

Deaths/casualties/hang nails?
 
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I am not really well informed concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I am very reluctant to read much of what the mass media reports as I am afraid of propaganda and the filtering of information from both sides. Can anyone recommend a book or two which develop in a neutral and unbiased way the history of the conflict from the ideological development/justification of an Israeli state in the 19th century to nowadays mess ?
 
Werewolf said:
I am not really well informed concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I am very reluctant to read much of what the mass media reports as I am afraid of propaganda and the filtering of information from both sides. Can anyone recommend a book or two which develop in a neutral and unbiased way the history of the conflict from the ideological development/justification of an Israeli state in the 19th century to nowadays mess ?
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You're not going to get an impartial response to this. Your best bet is to take a stab in the dark and do your own research.

(Noam Chomsky)
 
How many Palestians murdered by the terrorists of Israel this week?
 
Werewolf said:
I am not really well informed concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I am very reluctant to read much of what the mass media reports as I am afraid of propaganda and the filtering of information from both sides. Can anyone recommend a book or two which develop in a neutral and unbiased way the history of the conflict from the ideological development/justification of an Israeli state in the 19th century to nowadays mess ?
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Anyone who recommends you book will be a bit biased I'm afraid.

Maybe watch various news sources then make your own decision of what is more likely?
 
Cease fire to be announced in the morning. See you in a year or two, when Israel and Hamas do a Liverpool and declare: We go again.
 
Jerusalem 1913: The Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, by Amy Dockser Marcus

Abu Nidal: A Gun for Hire by Patrick Seale

Summing Up: An Autobiography by Yitzhak Shamir

Enjoyed all of the above. Provides a personal perspective on peoples background and upbringings and describes what has shaped and influenced their thoughts- whether you agree with them or not, they at least provide a subjective rationale behind their actions.
 
Werewolf said:
I am not really well informed concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I am very reluctant to read much of what the mass media reports as I am afraid of propaganda and the filtering of information from both sides. Can anyone recommend a book or two which develop in a neutral and unbiased way the history of the conflict from the ideological development/justification of an Israeli state in the 19th century to nowadays mess ?
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Nowadays mess is the result of occupation. Maybe the west found a justification for an Israeli state in Palestine at that time but that doesn't mean the Palestinians have to eventually accept it.

To understand the truth about the situation, first you have to build your knowledge on the fact that it's an occupation, then you may judge.
 
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Diabo_Sam said:
Nowadays mess is the result of occupation. Maybe the west found a justification for an Israeli state in Palestine at that time but that doesn't mean the Palestinians have to eventually accept it.

To understand the truth about the situation, first you have to build your knowledge on the fact that it's an occupation, then you may judge.
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The occupation is part of the conflict. The current mess is happening for a lot of reasons. This is at best a one-sided and massive oversimplification.
 
Diabo_Sam said:
Nowadays mess is the result of occupation. Maybe the west found a justification for an Israeli state in Palestine at that time but that doesn't mean the Palestinians have to eventually accept it.

To understand the truth about the situation, first you have to build your knowledge on the fact that it's an occupation, then you may judge.
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Nowadays the mess is the result of Hamas' continuous terror tactics and their (and Abbas') unwillingness to accept Israel as a Jewish state (whilst an independent Palestine would clearly be a purely Arab state).

You're also conveniently not mentioning that Gaza's border is partly controlled by Egypt. Why is Hamas not firing rockets at Cairo? How exactly is Gaza occupied?!

The starting point should rather be a mutual acceptance of each other's existence and the rights to self determination. Unfortunately, so far this has been a one-sided endeavour, Israel being willing to accept a two state solution whilst the Palestinians typically denying Israel's right to exist as an independent, Jewish state.
 
This has gone on for centuries, we'll just have to be comfortable with the fact that there won't be a permanent peace solution unless one race is completely eviscerated. Hopefully, we can just limit the casualties :(
 
fishfingers15 said:
This has gone on for centuries, we'll just have to be comfortable with the fact that there won't be a permanent peace solution unless one race is completely eviscerated. Hopefully, we can just limit the casualties :(
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It hasn't really gone on for centuries, not to this degree. There's also no reason to assume a solution can never be found.

Mihajlovic said:
Unfortunately, so far this has been a one-sided endeavour, Israel being willing to accept a two state solution whilst the Palestinians typically denying Israel's right to exist as an independent, Jewish state.
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:lol:
 
Diabo_Sam said:
Nowadays mess is the result of occupation. Maybe the west found a justification for an Israeli state in Palestine at that time but that doesn't mean the Palestinians have to eventually accept it.

To understand the truth about the situation, first you have to build your knowledge on the fact that it's an occupation, then you may judge.
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No matter how hard you try to portray yourself as a peaceful individual, you are suggesting that self-determination for the Jewish people in their historic homeland is unacceptable. I have no issues with that as you're certainly allowed to have an opinion. However, as long as the Palestinians pursue the elimination of what they see as an historical accident don't expect us to fill guilty about the death toll on your side. It's as simple as that.

And there is no occupation west of the river Jordan whatsoever. There was one from 1948 to 1967. In fact, two of them. Thankfully we saw out those.
 
Kaos said:
I don't agree with the image spam but the contrast in imagery of Palestinian children being maimed and corpse ridden compared to Israelis looking concerned inside a war shelter does portray a compelling discrepancy.
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Israel doesn't have to apologise for investing heavily in public safety. We pay a lot to have concrete safe-rooms in out homes, we pay tons to have defensive systems a-la Iron Dome whereas the Palestinians leave their populace exposed to retaliation which inevitable follows violent provocation. The concrete tunnels built by Hamas could be used as bomb shelters instead of routs to attack Israeli territory.

I guess this partly explains why, given the choice, individuals from Arab countries choose to live in the west where protecting the population is on the government agenda, at least to some extent.
 
holyland red said:
No matter how hard you try to portray yourself as a peaceful individual, you are suggesting that self-determination for the Jewish people in their historic homeland is unacceptable. I have no issues with that as you're certainly allowed to have an opinion. However, as long as the Palestinians pursue the elimination of what they see as an historical accident don't expect us to fill guilty about the death toll on your side. It's as simple as that.

And there is no occupation west of the river Jordan whatsoever. There was one from 1948 to 1967. In fact, two of them. Thankfully we saw out those.
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Start from here people and end here, here is the Zionist plan. They don't give a shit about peace in fact they use all the events and time that passes to eat more and more land.

Look hr, I said it before and I say it now your problem is that you allow yourself to judge people to serve your purpose of truth manipulation. We are peaceful million times than you and history proves that. You killed your only leader who wanted peace, if you want peace stop the killing, stop building new settlements now and release the prisoners and do some real initiative for peace and even Hamas your excuse will stop fighting. But no that wont happen because you don't want peace, you accuse us that we pursue your elimination when everything on the ground is the opposite of that. Just a lie after a lie, and now you want to convince the world that there is no occupation, really we live in a shit world.
 
holyland red said:
Israel doesn't have to apologise for investing heavily in public safety. We pay a lot to have concrete safe-rooms in out homes, we pay tons to have defensive systems a-la Iron Dome whereas the Palestinians leave their populace exposed to retaliation which inevitable follows violent provocation. The concrete tunnels built by Hamas could be used as bomb shelters instead of routs to attack Israeli territory.

I guess this partly explains why, given the choice, individuals from Arab countries choose to live in the west where protecting the population is on the government agenda, at least to some extent.
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I wasn't faulting the Israelis for developing protective means to shelter themselves. I was merely comparing the severity of suffering endured by both sides. The idea that this is a war between two sides is nonsense - its essentially pea shooters vs nuclear weapons; one side has had to endure the brunt of suffering.
 
Diabo_Sam said:
Start from here people and end here, here is the Zionist plan. They don't give a shit about peace in fact they use all the events and time that passes to eat more and more land.

Look hr, I said it before and I say it now your problem is that you allow yourself to judge people to serve your purpose of truth manipulation. We are peaceful million times than you and history proves that. You killed your only leader who wanted peace, if you want peace stop the killing, stop building new settlements now and release the prisoners and do some real initiative for peace and even Hamas your excuse will stop fighting. But no that wont happen because you don't want peace, you accuse us that we pursue your elimination when everything on the ground is the opposite of that. Just a lie after a lie, and now you want to convince the world that there is no occupation, really we live in a shit world.
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I don't want to convince the world in anything. The world judges for itself. I read the Hamas and Fatah charters, and "the world" can find them online too.

Are you denying that the land we both live on is the historic homeland of the Jewish nation? That Jews have a right for self-determination? That there is some justification for a Jewish homeland is at least part of that land?
 
Kaos said:
I wasn't faulting the Israelis for developing protective means to shelter themselves. I was merely comparing the severity of suffering endured by both sides. The idea that this is a war between two sides is nonsense - its essentially pea shooters vs nuclear weapons; one side has had to endure the brunt of suffering.
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Would you shoot peas at people allergic to peas who happen to be armed with nukes?
 
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